And Then Suddenly A Type Changes

[krieger]

i'd sooner see him as INFp than as ENTp.

more likely this is just another one of those "the grass is greener..." things that always return home, though.

I take it you have personal experience with this incident

The only way I see that happening is if I feel so strongly introverted that I can accept being rational as well.

J/P is ambiguous for me as well.

[Crispy]

Crispy, I'm curious about your triggering reasons. And what's that Breadth/Depth, a dichotomy or something or an earlier discussion on the forum?

If your curious as to how the new information came about...
First I printed out one of each type of what I considered the most easily readable/understandable set of descriptions: http://www.socionics.com/prof/prof.htm.

Then I showed my (as perceived then) ISFj mother the INTj description, making sure to mention to ignore anything physical-structure related. When completed I asked her if each individual paragraph fit and she said "a lot of it but not all".

Then I showed her the ENTp description, with the same directions. After laughing a few times through the read she finished and exclaimed "YEAH, That's You!". A little surprised, I asked which paragraphs fit: "All of them". I asked for examples and she came up with these quotes among others (Things she emphasized in bold [doing it from memory of yesterdays conversation]):

One day they can be friendly and the next day they can be completely opposite

They often behave unceremoniously and can rudely butt in on others conversations.

ENTp's can also find it difficult to evalutate how others feel about them, and therefore can make mistakes when choosing friends

They hardly ever admit when they are at fault. Even if they apologize they usually continue to behave in the same way as before

ENTp's are interested in and talk about everything that is new and unusual even if it is not in their main field of knowledge

^-- you may notice this one isn't "negative" like the others, but it bugs the shit out of her .

Main peculiarity of ENTp's behavior is an incredible absent-mindedness. They usually leave items where they used them and have a tendency to constantly lose smaller objects. ENTp's work place and belongings are often kept in disarray.

If somebody puts pressure on them they immediately counterattack, often with more than equal force.

^-- think she's referring to my mace-slinging status.

If ENTps are not interested in a particular job, they try to leave it until the last moment. Then in very short period of time they can complete all awaiting jobs, but of course the quality suffers.

After the ENTp description I showed her the INTp one for good measure. She said it sounded less like me than the first two (INTj and ENTp) and that she thought it might be her. Then I showed her the ISFj description telling her that's what I saw her as up until today and she wholeheartedly agreed when she was finished.

Then I showed the INTj and ENTp descriptions (in that order) to my (as perceived then) ESTj father and had more or less the same results. The INTj fit for about half or more and he couldn't find much about the ENTp descrip that didn't fit me. But when I showed him the ESTj description, he went on to say he thought the ENTp fit him better than it, so I left confused (but still pretty sure he's ESTj).

So basically when people who've known me my whole life look at This Particular Set of Alpha NT descriptions, they find the big picture has me as ENTp > INTj. This makes sense to me as far as the Irrational dichotomy goes, but it is still really hard to accept myself as an Extrovert. But I have a feeling my views of Introvert/Extrovert are draconian in the sense I put too much emphasis on the "Friendship" aspect of it and to an equal extent the "sociability" aspect.

Additionally on the topic of Introversion/Extroversion:
I asked my mother If I was Introverted/Extroverted and she said: When you were younger, I would say extroverted but more recently (last few years) you don't really socialize or talk to anyone...
I then asked her if I had high energy over the course of lifetime relative to other children and she said "Definitely Yes"
I asked my (perceived to be ISTp) sister if I was Introverted and she said that she thought that she was Introverted and that my personality doesn't seem "shy" like hers, I just don't socialize much.

[Crispy]

As far as IEI goes I severely doubt it (although I agree it's the most likely Beta) but if I show it to those around me, who knows, may be in for a bigger surprise.

EDIT: Also if someone has a suggestion for a more clear/understandable set of descriptions than socionics.com, it would be appreciated. It's the only set that I could find that didn't look like a botched Russian translation.

[Absurd]

As far as IEI goes I severely doubt it (although I agree it's the most likely Beta) but if I show it to those around me, who knows, may be in for a bigger surprise.

[The Ineffable]

...

Thanks for the detailed info.

[krieger]

i bet i would get all kinds of crazy random results if i showed profiles to my direct family...

[The Ineffable]

i bet i would get all kinds of crazy random results if i showed profiles to my direct family...

Your sentence is tautological, since you classify everything that's not consistent with what you already know as "crazy", "random", "arbitrary" or "throw of dice".

[krieger]

Your sentence is tautological, since you classify everything that's not consistent with what you already know as "crazy", "random", "arbitrary" or "throw of dice".

[golden]

.

[krieger]

a potential complication i'm seeing is that you generally show your more active and spontaneous side to your family on account of how they're people you're comfortable with. i imagine people generally behave more inhibited around strangers regardless of what type they are.

[Crispy]

Well an update on the amount of pestering I have accomplished:
Note: I know any one set of descriptions is not going to be close enough at all to secure a typing but I'm hoping gaining outside perspectives (admittedly for the first time) from multiple sources will create a clear enough big picture to get me settled.

http://www.socionics.com/prof/infp.htm
Showed mai mama the socionics.com INFp description and she said most of it didn't fit (especially successfully combing clothes and the desire for extravagant lifestyle) but a few things like being emotionally manipulative did fit.

http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/entp.htm
http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/intj.htm
Then showed the +/- descriptions for ENTp/INTj
Once again both descriptions mostly fit but the ENTp stuck out more (in her opinion) as carrying my traits.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=ILE
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LII
Went on to print out and show her social roles from wikisocion on ENTp/INTj
Here's the basic reactions I can recall (everything in this post happened yesterday):
1. The debater who will argue about anything with anyone.
Found this to be absolutely true and an important characteristic of my personality.
2. The career guru who is constantly building his already lengthy resume through the planned acquisition of relevant experience.
Said it might be me but not right now (not gaining relevant experience atm)
3. The clown who is always being silly and frivolous.
Also absolutely true at home and with friends
4. The outgoing nerd who makes jokes about things like parabolas, loves gadgets and wears things like fisherman's vests to work and to parties because all the pockets are convenient for holding stuff.
Said some of it's true (didn't know what to say about fisherman's vest but acknowledged I take full advantage of/have a thing for pockets)

1. The lone repository of truth — the last stalwart in a crazy world of illogic and delusion.
Was pretty neutral as to whether this sounded like me at all
2. The self-sacrificing workaholic who works hard, not in order to earn money, but because he doesn't want to give anything less than 100%.
Said this was definitely not me at all.
3. Mr. or Ms. Literal, who says exactly what (s)he means, and trusts that you will too.
Said sometimes--ish
4. The book worm who spends every moment of every day reading.
Said I was never like this while young but it can describe me these days
5. The smart aleck who never lets authorities tell him what to think and always finds a way to get the last word.
Said this fits me pretty well.
6. The specialist who devotes every waking moment to excelling in an extremely narrow but highly competitive technical field.
Was pretty neutral/a bit negative as to how much this fit me.

Overall for the social roles test pointed slightly towards ENTp but as expected they weren't a big help.

http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns
Went on to (Blohkin) words:
What I did was just read like 5 words at a time followed by a quick "ok any of those sound like me". There was a general pattern emerging of anything that sounded too J-ish in the INTj list was knocked off as not being me (Hard Work, without rest/interruption, commitment, responsibility) and things that looked too P-ish in the ENTp list was emphasized (passion to change, Slovenliness, complete disregard for dress and appearance, Distraction, forgetfulness etc.) Needless to say for this particular set I was found to be closer aligned with ENTp.

http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/test.html#oldtest
Final annoyance of the day was having her go through this oldtest the correct way. As expected she got to the N -> NT -> Alpha NT quite easily without my assistance but when it came to the final straw she chose INTj, saying she didn't think "Fantasy, Risks, or Luck" fit me at all.

So the results of yesterday's barrage were, if not too conclusive at all, a stronger hint towards ENTp > INTj > (anything else I've shown so far). It should be known that with the exception of INFp and INTp, I have not shown a single other description back to back with Alpha NT to gain outside relative perspectives.

To restate my situation:
I have never seen a strong reason to doubt my club as NT
I feel strongly introverted and strongly irrational (but don't necessarily feel IP Temperament)
I have felt connected to Alpha values for a loooong time and doubt this almost less than my club.
Up until recently I have ignored my inclination towards irrationality to protect my inclination towards introversion and this "type-change" just represents the opposite (triggered by outside perspectives that were not listened to in the past).
Accepting these new perspectives leaves me in a situation where my Personality matches entire ENTp description but falls short when put up against an Introversion/Extroversion check.


Besides introversion there are a few things anchoring me to LII:
My previous set of intertype relations (Me INTj, mother ISFj, father ESTj, and sister ISTp) which until recently made perfect sense to me.
My (mostly lack of) romantic relationships would characteristically point towards LII > ILE
This russian fucker (LII on filatova's page):


If I get more information regarding this I'll post it. If you wanna play it safe consider me a generic Alpha NT.

[krieger]

1. The lone repository of truth — the last stalwart in a crazy world of illogic and delusion.
Was pretty neutral as to whether this sounded like me at all
2. The self-sacrificing workaholic who works hard, not in order to earn money, but because he doesn't want to give anything less than 100%.
Said this was definitely not me at all.
3. Mr. or Ms. Literal, who says exactly what (s)he means, and trusts that you will too.
Said sometimes--ish
4. The book worm who spends every moment of every day reading.
Said I was never like this while young but it can describe me these days
5. The smart aleck who never lets authorities tell him what to think and always finds a way to get the last word.
Said this fits me pretty well.
6. The specialist who devotes every waking moment to excelling in an extremely narrow but highly competitive technical field.
Was pretty neutral/a bit negative as to how much this fit me.

this comically misrepresents what INTjs are like.

[Crispy]

Yes i just printed out whatever was in (mostly) clear english first. In the long run that set will be one of the first thrown out

[The Ineffable]

Regarding Crispy's Extroversion, this problem is old as his user, afaik, other users before said that he would kinda be extroverted, that he's sometimes pushy, assertive and things like that. When I was typing him Gamma NT, he was appearing ILI to me at first, however I could not ignore his apparent Extroversion so I included LIE and settled on Gamma NT because of it. I now have a stronger understanding and Extrovert makes real sense.

If you are careful to the whole, Introvert users are afraid of "adhering" to other users or common views then be "left out" when this view changes because of others, to follow "moving targets", a problem Extroverts don't have (I actually read an article on this, see below). To me Crispy makes part of the latter category, he may change his mind and form a new opinion without concern whether that still makes part of his existing story or not, starting always off what's currently being said, with disregard of whether that's consistent with his current inner status or not. Unreliable persons or changing conclusions are seen with great skepticism by Introverts, becoming cautious since the first unexpected changes of status, not applicable to Extroverts who need to ignore situational updates only when they're judged by others (reactions to this largely repend on the specific functions).
---

Take the following situation, you have persons A (Introvert), B, C and D (perhaps Extrovert). Person A has agreement relationships with B and C (B and C may be things, values, not necessarily people), A is in a relationship of "we agree" or "I agree with" with B and C. When D appears, and comes with something contradicting B, A may want to change the status, if he/she finds it more appropriate or constructive, to agreeing with C and D. However, if D again comes with a change that will contradict C too, A will likely perfer to choose ignoring D further, then either fall back on the former relationship with B or form others consistent with the present views which include C. B and C may also be views that A and D initially share, before D tries to change them. A is looking for better relationships, however, as an Introvert, A is looking for for stability too, if these relationships change all the time they have no meaning, he can't find internal balance.

This tendency to cling can be felt among the users interacting here, if A were an Extrovert (munenori, take note of this ) he'd have no problem to abandon B, stick to C and still follow D in the future, as there are no "relationships" determined by his agreement, everything is composed of the objects which are valuable and satisfactory at a given moment. An Extrovert A would feel no need say "fuck you" to D, he would not need to decide rejection/recanting, which is again a new formed field. Keep in mind that B, C and any option given by D are of the same tier, equally sensible, B and C can also be older options given by D, contradicted by the newer options of the same person/object, without changing the premises of the thought experiment.

...

We believe the main or a major mental qualities extrovert? Propensity to change the outer world in favor of the subject. Tendency to worry about the subjects and objects, changing their relationship, as opposed to the introvert tendency to change the subject and object in favor or in favor of relations between them. In an extrovert relationships between people in relation to the people themselves - secondary: the relationship must be such that what people need. In the introvert, on the contrary, no relationship should be adapted to people and people to a relationship: if there were contradictions, should change people or their behavior, not attitude.

We can say that for the extrovert constant in the external world are the subjects and objects. For an introvert this constant is the relationship between subjects and objects, and the resulting sense of these relationships.

People - a social being. And as it is formed of two parts: an active psychophysical I (a man - it is an object) and their relationships with people and other objects (a person - it's his attitude). Extraversion - introversion of consciousness of one of them gives priority to, and it becomes like a second part of the reason. Extrovert gives priority psychophysical "I" person, an introvert - Relations. Extrovert sure that "quality of the object is always quality. That is to say that the attitudes and feelings of the world around him are determined by the value of his personal properties or its activity, and because in many ways these qualities is trying to improve. Introvert, on the contrary, I am sure that his personality will be judged according to the relations with others, depending on what feelings in others it causes. Introvert in his own eyes is worth as much as are his relationships, so all his forces, he consciously tries to improve these relations, trying to be accommodating, avoiding quarrels. The sum of all relationships-feelings can be called the psychological field and say that an introvert primarily cares about the quality of his psychological field, as well as the quality of the psychological fields of others.

For the extroverted social relations - a consequence and a sign of social value, quality projects. Ordinary course of his thoughts: each subject can improve their relationships with others and call to her positive feelings of self-help method. If the subject in society is a modest place, so it lacks some socially valued qualities.

For an introvert basis of the material world is the relationship. Qualitativeness man as an object - is a consequence and symptom of social quality, the value of his relations and the feelings it causes other people. His thoughts: everyone can increase their value in the eyes of society, improving their relationships with others. If the subject is not noticed and not appreciated - hence, not sufficiently established the correct relationship.

In light of these considerations it becomes clear that the widespread current definition, that person - is, above all, his attitude is progressive in the mouth of an extrovert, which in this case will not forget that society - not only people but also relationships. At that time, as in the mouth of the introvert, who are so inclined to exaggerate the role of relations and to underestimate the object, this definition becomes dangerous, inclines to the underestimation of the qualities of human personality. Hence the mistaken idea that there is no irreplaceable people, that every man is only a cog that person needs to be changed as soon as he breaks the harmony of the psychological field - can not or will not adapt. Opposite the bend, which can do and do extroverts - the assertion that there is no essential relationship, any relationship that does not fit the personality, individuality, and can be replaced. Same person as an individual need and the confidence that he enjoys the respect and the right to be oneself, and confidence in the constancy of the positive attitude to the environment, consistency in their lives.

For the extrovert orientation of the object in the outside world are the surrounding objects and subjects. They therefore enjoy a certain right of immunity: a different object has the right to be what he wants. If it prevents me, I change the relationship with him, but not the object itself. This is because for the extrovert objects and subjects - the fulcrum of consciousness. Arbitrarily change these objects - it's losing foothold. In this crumbling world that threatens the collapse of consciousness. This is the same that saw the branch on which you sit. Because of this, all extroverts painfully react to different "perevospityvaniya" change the subject against his will. Each extrovert and so sure that all tend to self-improvement. And every extrovert feels its duty to assist in this voluntary self-help everybody else.

Object orientation in the outside world for the introvert are the attitudes and feelings of others. Therefore, on the one hand, they are very attentive to them, but on the other - are sure that everyone in this area tend to the same goal and therefore, as much as they can help other people to build these relationships.

Everyone is different some concern extrovert feeling a certain activity, something that drives him to act in situations in which an introvert just watching. Watches, creating the impression of immersion in himself. It is very important to understand that focus introvert - This dive is not in himself but in a relationship outside world. That is, observation of the relationship between subject and object, which he - in contrast to the extrovert - does not want and can not violate. If an introvert in his "immersion" of something thinking, it is not about the problems of his inner life and the problems of relationships with other subjects and objects. The impression of immersion in himself "- a result that any relation to the outside world a person perceives as his own feeling.

For all these reasons, in cooperation with the extrovert introvert extrovert Douala gives a sense of confidence in themselves as objects with certain qualities. Introvert its dual - real knowledge of what feelings for him nourish others, and, if necessary, and how those feelings change.

As we have said, extrovert, adapting to the real actors, objects and their different manifestations, or to what is in them or with them going, produces acceptable for these subjects and objects relations. Thus, an extrovert - the creator of new attitudes and new feelings about the logical and illogical, unethical and ethical, aesthetic and unaesthetic, timely and untimely . Thanks to the creativity of an introvert, there are entities other than new properties and facilities, new designs, new kinds of emotional experiences and inner excitement, new methods of work . Creative element is the second element of the IM, for example, a - , Y a - .

...

[Crispy]

I have just come across the realization that I am not, have never been, and will never be INTj.

Sure glad i got That outta my system

Updates:
Intertype relations don't lie

I know myself better than my momma

Been informed by a non-16types-online friend (who knows me better than most) that INTj descriptions fit much better. (So at the very least the outside perspectives I've gathered make no preference towards a particular Alpha NT)

I'm not fuckin extroverted gawwwwwwwwwwwwwwd

[Pa3s]

I know myself better than my momma

Well, when I typed myself LII (I still switch back and forth you know... ) I could relate to your posts/statements kinda better than to some others. And you were also one of the LIIs who were hated the least.

[Korpsy Knievel]

*strangles Ne egos*