Leave it here. You are welcome Dostoevsky.
@Kalinoche the Child
Last edited by khcs; 05-14-2020 at 09:36 PM.
Seems ILI
This one goes to the Beta quadra!
I think he's LIE. When asked a question, he doesn't "go deep inside his head" for the answer, like an introvert would do. He just replies.
Furthermore, he got into his mafia life to help out his dad and "to make money." Making money is the raison d'etre of LIE's. It is the only thing I can point to in my own life for doing anything, major or minor.
Also, that shiny violet shirt. Lol. I have one almost exactly like that.
@xerxe, LIE's have 4D Te and 3D Ni, so we are basically oriented toward creating practical solutions to tomorrow's problems. We have some 2D awareness of the real world, but our ability to VALUE things is 1D Fi.
In practical terms, this means that we have a very high resolution thinking function which is assisted by an only slightly lower resolution forecasting function. I've talked to many LIE's, and every single one of them sees the future as a multi-branching series of possible paths, one of which can be taken to some destination. If it turns out that, for whatever reason, the destination can't be reached by that chosen path, we have already considered backup paths.
I mention this to show how nuanced our first two functions are. Our 2D Se is not so nuanced. Perhaps I want to appear more powerful. OK, I can buy a Mercedes. Sort of like using a sledgehammer where a tack hammer should be used. The solutions are lower resolution.
Our weakest, least developed function is Fi, and it has the lowest resolution. Not 64,000 shades of gray. Just black, or white.
I have an LIE neighbor who, like me, also parks cars on his lawn for football games. Both of us make thousands of dollars per year from this activity. For him, it's tax-free. I'm older and don't need the money so much, so I report it as income. But, bottom line, it's a chunk of change and worth the time it takes to get it.
I am fairly nuanced at this work, but my neighbor is 33 years old and if some guy wants to give him $50 to park instead of the $60 that he's asking, instead of negotiating or giving the potential customer a less desirable parking space, my neighbor treats this as a personal affront and screams at the guy to get the fuck off his driveway and go find some other place to park and never fucking come back. It's amazing to watch. He goes ballistic on the guys who push back even a little.
This is not a virtue. This is having a coarse-grained ability to value humans and their feelings.
OK, so if you are LIE and you go through life and you really are unable to value things - any things; people, events, culture, objects, anything, because your Fi is retarded - then how do you make decisions? Which destinations are worth working towards, and how can you possibly evaluate them or even distinguish between them if you can't assign a value to each of them?
The answer, of course, is Money. Everything can be assigned a monetary value. Everything. It might not be a personal value, but LIE's do only black and white personal values. Love forever, or how can I kill this guy and all of his offspring and plow salt into his fields, acid onto his desk to dissolve his DNA traces?
Money has gradations. It has high resolution. It is a shorthand substitute for value for LIE's. It's not a great substitute, but rather is a working mirror. It is the best that LIE's can do with the hand we were dealt.
There is a story I heard on NPR about a guy who had a good life. Wife, family, home, good job, and then he got a brain lesion that killed his ability to value anything. Every other part of his brain was untouched. His speech and intelligence and coordination remained the same, but he lost the ability to make decisions. He would go into a grocery store and look at two brands of beans, and he could tell you everything about the beans. Calories, fat content, chemicals, price, weight, everything, but he was unable to decide which brand to buy. He could not assign a "value" to either can, and it is by our sometimes prejudiced and irrational values that we decide what we are going to do. Advertisers know this perfectly well. That's why your brand of toilet paper comes with a large association with babies and motherly love.
The guy first lost his job, then his wife and family, then his home. He retained perfect knowledge of what was happening, but was unable to do anything about it.
That is a really hard question to answer, because I think that the nature of any complex society which deals with other societies, and I'm talking about anything above about fifty people, requires money to survive and advance.
Here is an example. You don't need money when dealing with family members. You also don't need money when dealing with friends. But money is not just a measure of value or a store of value, it is also a promise to return a favor. You do something for someone that benefits them, and they give you a piece of paper promising to do something for you in the future. That's money. When the future rolls around, you go to them with your IOU money and demand that they do some favor or give you something they own in return for what you did for them.
The nature of humans is to maintain a balance between favors you do and favors done for you. If you are always doing something for your sister and she does nothing for you in return, there is some resentment. Maybe you write off the debt because she is family. But what about people who are not family? How do you keep track of debts to each other?
For most primitive societies where everyone knows everyone else, these debts are kept in your head. John helped you fix your roof last year, so this year you help him with his garden.
But what do you do with strangers who come through town and you know you will never see them again? There are "rules of hospitality" which apply to strangers in most primitive societies, but maybe there are a lot of them his year and their freeloading will overwhelm your resources. That's when money is introduced. Money, and warfare.
Just because a society discovers some low-cost or free source of life-supporting energy does not mean that they can do without money, unless they can do away with the feeling that that group of people is freeloading on the resources that you need to prosper.
If I, as an LIE, had any problems living in a society like that (assuming it could really exist, which I doubt), they would arise from my difficulty in finding an alternate way to value everything.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-16-2020 at 10:11 PM.
ENTJ - Jack London
@Adam Strange
i think she reminds me of someone on the forum but can't put my finger on who that would be
edit: guess she reminded me of cassandra bankson after all
Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 05-26-2020 at 10:12 AM.
^I think she shares some valued functions with Scarlett Johansson.
That's really interesting. It would *never* have occurred to me that money could be used as a proxy for ethical feelings and values. I suppose one could say that an undualized LIE (or LSE) is the man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
I don't know whether a post-scarcity society is possible. Whatever the future holds, many of the people I encounter seem ready to live in societies that elevate non-transactional forms of social interaction — maybe those people aren't LIEs . I'd write more, but I'm kind of burned out at the moment.That is a really hard question to answer, because I think that the nature of any complex society which deals with other societies, and I'm talking about anything above about fifty people, requires money to survive and advance.
Here is an example. You don't need money when dealing with family members. You also don't need money when dealing with friends. But money is not just a measure of value or a store of value, it is also a promise to return a favor. You do something for someone that benefits them, and they give you a piece of paper promising to do something for you in the future. That's money. When the future rolls around, you go to them with your IOU money and demand that they do some favor or give you something they own in return for what you did for them.
The nature of humans is to maintain a balance between favors you do and favors done for you. If you are always doing something for your sister and she does nothing for you in return, there is some resentment. Maybe you write off the debt because she is family. But what about people who are not family? How do you keep track of debts to each other?
For most primitive societies where everyone knows everyone else, these debts are kept in your head. John helped you fix your roof last year, so this year you help him with his garden.
But what do you do with strangers who come through town and you know you will never see them again? There are "rules of hospitality" which apply to strangers in most primitive societies, but maybe there are a lot of them his year and their freeloading will overwhelm your resources. That's when money is introduced. Money, and warfare.
Just because a society discovers some low-cost or free source of life-supporting energy does not mean that they can do without money, unless they can do away with the feeling that that group of people is freeloading on the resources that you need to prosper.
If I, as an LIE, had any problems living in a society like that (assuming it could really exist, which I doubt), they would arise from my difficulty in finding an alternate way to value everything.
Anjem Choudary - ESFP - Napoleon
Last edited by khcs; 05-17-2020 at 03:42 PM.
Richard N. Haass - ENTJ - Jack London
Last edited by khcs; 05-19-2020 at 09:47 AM.
Chiang Kai-shek - INTP - Balzac
Last edited by khcs; 05-23-2020 at 09:51 AM.
I don't agree with the statement that "money is the raison d'etre of LIEs". What a meaningless life I'd have, if that were true. Perhaps what Adam meant was that LIEs are just good at making money, and thusly we feel ourselves useful providing materially for our relatives and loved ones, not necessarily that LIEs are more into money than other types, alot of people are into money anyways, and that's been true since money's been a thing. Types in the "central quadras" (beta/gamma) are more drawn to money, because it's related to amassing and resources, as per socionics.
Well, of course, money helps get things done in the world - it's just a means and not an end. Glory doesn't appeal to me personally, seems kinda vain and pretentious. Developping potential in a pragamatic and practical way seems like a better end to pursue than money, though.Why channel your energy into money as opposed to some other source of reward / glory / whatever?
What an example of a post-scarcity society be? Star Trek? That seems appealing, but it's a fictional example, so dunno.Could you ever live happily in a post-scarcity society that doesn't need money?
Join my Enneagram Discord: https://discord.gg/ND4jCAcs
Anders Tegnell - INTP - Balzac (The man behind the herd immunity experiment)
Last edited by khcs; 05-25-2020 at 09:54 AM.
Madalyn Murray - LIE-Ni 9w1 DCNH-dominant subtype
Stanley Ho - ENTJ - Jack London (Casino tycoon who never gambled)
SEE
ILI
ESI
LIE
Talk show host ILI Tuomas Enbuske
Super interested in influential people [they can do everything if popular I think he even licks their butt holes if asked] and criticizing peasants.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Annicke Shireen - SEE-Fi
Werster - ILI
Charles Brown - ENTJ - Jack London
Maxim Waters - ENTJ - Jack London