Heinrich Himmler

[Gilly]

How was ******s image that of an SLE? Just because people saw him as strong and confident? You need to fix your definition of Se. He was best known as a powerful orator, which is pretty much as pure EIE as it gets.

[World Socionics]

How was ******s image that of an SLE? Just because people saw him as strong and confident? You need to fix your definition of Se. He was best known as a powerful orator, which is pretty much as pure EIE as it gets.

He was a powerful orator. He was an EIE, very much so. However, he used his oratory skills to convince people that he was strong in the volitional sense i.e. to be a strong leader rather than a convincing speaker. His foreign policy was that of open aggression i.e. conquering the surrounding nations for lebensraum and forcibly uniting the Germanic people. It wasn't about being emotionally persuasive, it was about conquering in a very physical sense. In this way, he was very much trying to use his Fe to convince people of his Se.

[World Socionics]

SLI

Now my suggestion may be controversial but you've gone over the 'ridiculous' line.

Get a block of evidence like I have and maybe I'll take you seriously.

[World Socionics]

echidna, your arguments would be palatable if you actually used primary sources (stuff Himmler actually said) rather than 2nd-hand interpretations.

Actually I used a mixture. One was a direct quote from him, another a direct quote from someone who met him and the others I took from biographies I found online. There are some real goodies here from those who knew him: en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler

I especially like the ILI-ishness these two:

"He had a pale, round, expressionless face, almost Mongolian, and a completely inoffensive air. Nor in his early years did I ever hear him advocate the race theories of what he was to become the most notorious executive."

"He was a schoolmaster type outwardly, and that was as far as his foreign political horizon went. Therefore, in the field of foreign affairs I had an easy time convincing him. As far as other things are concerned, Himmler was a sphinx, hard to understand. He was a coward, not a brave man."

I don't tend to find the things that he's saying to be that helpful, political speeches can be riddled with personae.

I also don't see what relevance his being born a sickly child would have on his type per se; if anything it provides a better explanation for his insecurities.

I was more emphasising how even as a child he failed to make a physical impression on those around him. He VERY MUCH lacked the 'superior kind of manner'.

Oh, and BTW the "you don't English very well" comment earlier was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm.

That's good to know.

[World Socionics]

@echidna1000 I think you missed this

Nein!

[strrrng]

But the display of passion and emotion was not something Himmler warmed to, indeed he advocated the clinical deletion of undesirables without a shred of sadistic passion:

"The 'emotional' terrorism practised by Ernst Rohm's shock troops with a blend of political and criminal techniques gave way to its rational counterpart, a central bureaucracy systematically employing terrorism as an institution. The new type of man of violence recruited by Himmler was concerned with the dispassionate extermination of real or possible opponents, not with the primitive release of sadistic impulses. Whatever sadism occurred, particularly in the concentration camps, was included by Himmler among those 'exceptional cases of human weakness' of which he had spoken in his Poznan speech quoted above; they occurred in contradiction of the 'idea' of the type."

callous single-mindedness hardly points away from beta, hence the nazi regime.

What ****** and Himmler shared was instead the appreciation of strength and power, the worship of might. ******, with his Se HA, made sure that the public image of him was of this powerful, SLE-ish character, a character to be feared and obeyed rather than loved. Himmler himself very much seemed to fixate on authority and far less on charisma:

"I know that there are many people in Germany who feel sick when they see this black tunic; we can understand that." — Heinrich Himmler

his sentiments reflect a relentless, collectivized sense of duty. also note the fact that the authority you claim he fixated on was fueled by beta-tinged charisma.

Rather than the powerful authoritarian he sought to be, Himmler was far more the obedient phlegmatic. Indeed he was more of a servant to ****** than an appreciated equal :

"****** called Himmler's mystical and pseudoreligious interests "nonsense".[197] Himmler was not a member of ******'s inner circle; the two men were not very close, and rarely saw each other socially.[198][189] Himmler socialised almost exclusively with other members of the SS.[199] His unconditional loyalty and efforts to please ****** earned him the nickname of der treue Heinrich ("the faithful Heinrich"). In the last days of the war, when it became clear that ****** planned to die in Berlin, Himmler left his long-time superior to try to save himself.[200]" This is far more recognisable as an assymetrical relation rather than that of Duality, hence I am in support of Supervision.

given that ****** had little interest in him as a person, along with his high-ranking post and fixation on obedience, I'd say his efforts to please the fuhrer point that much more toward LSI.

Himmler, while a great organiser of systems and organisations, was better at patiently climbing to the top of the organisation by being reliable. When it came to acting in the thick of it, such as with the military, he ended up withdrawing from his duties instead of conquering them...

"Himmler seldom left the train, only worked about four hours per day, and insisted on a daily massage and a lengthy nap afterwards.[157] He was unable to devise any viable plans for completion of the military objectives. Under pressure from ****** over the worsening military situation, Himmler became anxious and unable to give him coherent reports.[158] ****** was unwilling to admit that his choice of commander had been inadequate."

patience and reliability are the hallmark attributes of rational STs who succeed in political structures... hence the military, lol.

A look into his childhood reveals much:

His father, however, was very much a LSI, micromanaging Himmler's childhood with an iron fist. He would even go so far as to edit Himmler's diary and research the families of Himmler's classmates so as to provide him with a list of who he should befriend.

"The man who wrote some of the most terrible chapters in German history was born in Munich on 7th October 1900. His family atmosphere and all the main impressions of his years of development were evidently decisively influenced by the personality of his father, who, as the son of a police president, a former tutor to the princes at the Bavarian court, and a head-master, also applied authoritarian principles in his own household. He was austere, precise and pious. No doubt it would be going too far to see in the son's early interest in Teutonic sagas, criminology and military affairs the beginnings of his later development, but the family milieu, with its combination of 'officialdom, police work and teaching', (18) manifestly had a lasting effect on him. His opposition to his father's discipline and upbringing may have engendered a kind of dependence that later expressed itself as a complex need to look up to someone and surrender himself to that person. His fanatical concern with education, which led him continually to try to teach and impart axioms for living, was doubtless also largely the outcome of his early years. The doctor Felix Kersten, who treated him continuously from 1939 onwards and enjoyed his confidence, has asserted that Himmler himself would rather have educated foreign peoples than exterminate them.(19) During the war he spoke enthusiastically—looking ahead to peace—of establishing military units who were 'educated and trained, once education and training can be practised again'.(20)"
^^^ if this is not Victim-esque, Te-valuing, Gamma NT, I don't know what is.

it could be claimed that his LSI warden of a father molded him into a phallus-worshipping, Se-seeking automaton with as much facility as it could that his natural aristocratic values were sadistically ingrained into his unconscious by a fellow rational ST whose overbearing sternness found a perfect symbolic outlet in a man who, being his dual, embodied the kind of romanticized, maternal superiority and fatherly affection he lacked in childhood. all things considered, I'd say your argument holds little weight.

[Gilly]

He was a powerful orator. He was an EIE, very much so. However, he used his oratory skills to convince people that he was strong in the volitional sense i.e. to be a strong leader rather than a convincing speaker. His foreign policy was that of open aggression i.e. conquering the surrounding nations for lebensraum and forcibly uniting the Germanic people. It wasn't about being emotionally persuasive, it was about conquering in a very physical sense. In this way, he was very much trying to use his Fe to convince people of his Se.

That sounds exactly like Se Hidden Agenda to me, but I have no idea why you think this translates to him projecting the image of an SLE. I guess you could say all EIEs try to do that to some extent, because they all have Se Hidden Agenda, but this is the way the function manifests in that position, which is different from the way it manifests in the dominant position.

And don't say "omg conquering and using aggression is Se," because it's fucking not. Se is not testosterone, get that through your skull.

[The Ineffable]

Likely IEI.

[World Socionics]

callous single-mindedness hardly points away from beta, hence the nazi regime.



his sentiments reflect a relentless, collectivized sense of duty. also note the fact that the authority you claim he fixated on was fueled by beta-tinged charisma.



given that ****** had little interest in him as a person, along with his high-ranking post and fixation on obedience, I'd say his efforts to please the fuhrer point that much more toward LSI.



patience and reliability are the hallmark attributes of rational STs who succeed in political structures... hence the military, lol.



it could be claimed that his LSI warden of a father molded him into a phallus-worshipping, Se-seeking automaton with as much facility as it could that his natural aristocratic values were sadistically ingrained into his unconscious by a fellow rational ST whose overbearing sternness found a perfect symbolic outlet in a man who, being his dual, embodied the kind of romanticized, maternal superiority and fatherly affection he lacked in childhood. all things considered, I'd say your argument holds little weight.

It's hardly constructive to say my arguments have little weight when your arguments simply ignore the information elements he appears to be using and instead fixate on a very iffy notion of 'beta'.
After all, 'relentless, collectivized sense of duty' is not the definition of Beta but is equally findable in Gammas.

"patience" is hardly the hallmark of a Beta, Rational ST, it is a tendency towards impatience that Ni Super-Id bestows (which is why an LSI, despite his planning, fears he might aggressively charge into something and later regret it). Indeed it is those with Ni in the Ego who know when to be patient and when to be urgent.

Please try not to ignore over half of what I say, you've just stated he could have been an LSI moulded by another LSI without presenting any evidence to support that view and without attempting to counteract the evidence I have presented of him being distinctly Victim-esque in his behaviour. Your criticism of 'weight' resembles a feather thrown at a brick.

[World Socionics]

That sounds exactly like Se Hidden Agenda to me, but I have no idea why you think this translates to him projecting the image of an SLE. I guess you could say all EIEs try to do that to some extent, because they all have Se Hidden Agenda, but this is the way the function manifests in that position, which is different from the way it manifests in the dominant position.

Exactly! I think it is very much related to being Se HA. His idea of 'superior man' is similar to Nietzsche's Ubermensch in a way, very much the yearning of Se by Beta Humanitarians.

And don't say "omg conquering and using aggression is Se," because it's fucking not. Se is not testosterone, get that through your skull.

I know that I'm not saying Se is simply bashing a person's head in, that's hardly the '4th dimensional' use of an Ego function.

[World Socionics]

Likely IEI.

Convince me of Te PoLR and I'll shake your hand (someday).

[strrrng]

It's hardly constructive to say my arguments have little weight when your arguments simply ignore the information elements he appears to be using and instead fixate on a very iffy notion of 'beta'.
After all, 'relentless, collectivized sense of duty' is not the definition of Beta but is equally findable in Gammas.

right, because beta doesn't exemplify the apex of ideological consolidation on a collective level. the nazis were all gammas.

"patience" is hardly the hallmark of a Beta, Rational ST, it is a tendency towards impatience that Ni Super-Id bestows (which is why an LSI, despite his planning, fears he might aggressively charge into something and later regret it). Indeed it is those with Ni in the Ego who know when to be patient and when to be urgent.

and how would such a fear not lead one to become that much more patient and diligent in their endeavors?

Please try not to ignore over half of what I say, you've just stated he could have been an LSI moulded by another LSI without presenting any evidence to support that view and without attempting to counteract the evidence I have presented of him being distinctly Victim-esque in his behaviour. Your criticism of 'weight' resembles a feather thrown at a brick.

that interpretation was given to show you how facile your own was.

really this discussion is useless. you seem to take a certain liberality in reducing behaviors to these comic book-esque snapshots, and interpolate functional correlations where either none are present or more are available, which is why instead of actually deconstructing my argument, you fell back on some, "you're throwing feathers at a brick" copout to shirk responsibility for your own. in other words, you're a predictably stupid ILE who can go fuck himself.

[Gilly]

Exactly! I think it is very much related to being Se HA. His idea of 'superior man' is similar to Nietzsche's Ubermensch in a way, very much the yearning of Se by Beta Humanitarians.

So Himmler admires ******'s Fe ego and Se HA...and is still ILI?

sigh

[Gilly]

It's hardly constructive to say my arguments have little weight when your arguments simply ignore the information elements he appears to be using and instead fixate on a very iffy notion of 'beta'.
After all, 'relentless, collectivized sense of duty' is not the definition of Beta but is equally findable in Gammas.

"patience" is hardly the hallmark of a Beta, Rational ST, it is a tendency towards impatience that Ni Super-Id bestows (which is why an LSI, despite his planning, fears he might aggressively charge into something and later regret it). Indeed it is those with Ni in the Ego who know when to be patient and when to be urgent.

Please try not to ignore over half of what I say, you've just stated he could have been an LSI moulded by another LSI without presenting any evidence to support that view and without attempting to counteract the evidence I have presented of him being distinctly Victim-esque in his behaviour. Your criticism of 'weight' resembles a feather thrown at a brick.

Wait, how is he victim-esque? You haven't said anything to qualify that except what turned out to be him being attracted to ******'s Hidden Agenda manifestation of Se, which makes perfect sense of him being LSI, lol.

[Absurd]

That Jew hater must be beta.

[World Socionics]

right, because beta doesn't exemplify the apex of ideological consolidation on a collective level. the nazis were all gammas.

Nein! It does not. Duty to the 'greater good' is a Decisive trait, not a Merry Trait, just look at LIEs and ILIs who can often sacrifice their personal needs for the 'bigger picture'. Can you say that an ESI is not dutiful?

Merry contributes to this sense of collectivism with Betas (and not in Gammas) in the way of people emotionally investing in group activities. This aspect we see relatively little of in Himmler, indeed for someone so high up in the NAZI party, he was very much out of the social circle. An LSI (like his father who actually pointed out who to befriend in class) would have made sure he was right in there with ****** and the others, joining in with not just the functions of the NAZI party, but also the social aspect.

and how would such a fear not lead one to become that much more patient and diligent in their endeavors?

Because a HA can't adequately substitute a leading function... otherwise your arguments would be less rhetorical/(aggressive later on) and more substantial.

that interpretation was given to show you how facile your own was.

really this discussion is useless. you seem to take a certain liberality in reducing behaviors to these comic book-esque snapshots, and interpolate functional correlations where either none are present or more are available, which is why instead of actually deconstructing my argument, you fell back on some, "you're throwing feathers at a brick" copout to shirk responsibility for your own. in other words, you're a predictably stupid ILE who can go fuck himself.

But I did deconstruct your argument, I took the time to cover everything that you said to me, even though a large amount of it wasn't even intelligible:
"it could be claimed that his LSI warden of a father molded him into a phallus-worshipping, Se-seeking automaton with as much facility as it could that his natural aristocratic values were sadistically ingrained into his unconscious by a fellow rational ST whose overbearing sternness found a perfect symbolic outlet in a man who, being his dual, embodied the kind of romanticized, maternal superiority and fatherly affection he lacked in childhood." I mean, who is the "symbolic outlet" in this scenario? "phallus-worshipping"? At least present alternative possibilities you have thought up in a manner that I might consider them seriously. What I can glean from this passage i.e. that it could be a LSI influencing a LSI, are already dealt with further up this post even though you still have not presented any evidence to verify your view.

Ending on a quip is not the same as a copout.

You're the one who has just folded back on silly ad hominems.

in other words, you're a predictably stupid ILE who can go fuck himself.

But my penis is sore been busy today.

[World Socionics]

So Himmler admires ******'s Fe ego and Se HA...and is still ILI?

sigh

Nein! I would argue that he admires ******'s projection of Se HA, you'd think he'd have socially involved himself with ****** more if he admired the Fe. Instead, it looks more like he was content to work on the SS while having little to do with ******'s friend circle. As I said above to Strrrng, this is not very LSI-like. A LSI would have recognised the power available to those who were 'in' with ****** and would have made sure that they were involved on a social level. Indeed, if they were duals, this should not have been a difficult thing to do.

[World Socionics]

Wait, how is he victim-esque? You haven't said anything to qualify that except what turned out to be him being attracted to ******'s Hidden Agenda manifestation of Se, which makes perfect sense of him being LSI, lol.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post901606 - Third paragraph from bottom.

[Gilly]

Nein! I would argue that he admires ******'s projection of Se HA, you'd think he'd have socially involved himself with ****** more if he admired the Fe. Instead, it looks more like he was content to work on the SS while having little to do with ******'s friend circle. As I said above to Strrrng, this is not very LSI-like. A LSI would have recognised the power available to those who were 'in' with ****** and would have made sure that they were involved on a social level. Indeed, if they were duals, this should not have been a difficult thing to do.

Right, being duals means they had to be best friends.

Tard.

So you think Hitlah supervised him?

Ni dominants are attracted to Se as a first function, not as a Hidden Agenda. It VERY PLAINLY makes more sense that he, as Fe dual seeking, admired ******'s Fe dominant function. Very simple if you are capable of putting together everything I have laid out very plainly for you in this thread.

[Gilly]

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post901606 - Third paragraph from bottom.

The one about him being physically ill? Or the one that makes him out to be a phobic 6? And the rabid Ti-causal-deterministic symptom of erupting with MAXIMS (pun intended...)

[Ryan]

"Noble and refined" sounds more Fi valuing to me than Fe. Indeed, to be refined means to NOT engage in the overly expressive tendencies of an Fe dominant.

Not the reasoning I would have used but, I agree.

I don't see a strong argument for him being a Fi valuer. Fi is apparent, whether he values it or not is another matter.

[strrrng]

Nein! It does not. Duty to the 'greater good' is a Decisive trait, not a Merry Trait, just look at LIEs and ILIs who can often sacrifice their personal needs for the 'bigger picture'. Can you say that an ESI is not dutiful?

Merry contributes to this sense of collectivism with Betas (and not in Gammas) in the way of people emotionally investing in group activities. This aspect we see relatively little of in Himmler, indeed for someone so high up in the NAZI party, he was very much out of the social circle. An LSI (like his father who actually pointed out who to befriend in class) would have made sure he was right in there with ****** and the others, joining in with not just the functions of the NAZI party, but also the social aspect.

I think you sorely overestimate the extent of emotive involvement entailed in the beta style of duty. yes, there are vanguards and orators who light the socio-politico torch; there are also betas who, for reasons both personal and type-related, prefer a greater distance from the activity, sometimes to a point of apparent indifference. this spectrum only underscores the single-mindedness mentioned above, namely that irrespective of one's personal attitude, the cause/movement itself is paramount. this makes it pretty easy to see how seriousness could be unrelated to the reinin trait, given how much greater a role quadra values play in shaping a person's public expression, anyway.

Because a HA can't adequately substitute a leading function... otherwise your arguments would be less rhetorical/(aggressive later on) and more substantial.

which is only further testament to the absurdity of your claim that he admired ****** because of some unfiltered projection of "SLEness."

But I did deconstruct your argument, I took the time to cover everything that you said to me, even though a large amount of it wasn't even intelligible:
"it could be claimed that his LSI warden of a father molded him into a phallus-worshipping, Se-seeking automaton with as much facility as it could that his natural aristocratic values were sadistically ingrained into his unconscious by a fellow rational ST whose overbearing sternness found a perfect symbolic outlet in a man who, being his dual, embodied the kind of romanticized, maternal superiority and fatherly affection he lacked in childhood." I mean, who is the "symbolic outlet" in this scenario? "phallus-worshipping"? At least present alternative possibilities you have thought up in a manner that I might consider them seriously. What I can glean from this passage i.e. that it could be a LSI influencing a LSI, are already dealt with further up this post even though you still have not presented any evidence to verify your view.

****** is the symbolic outlet, and phallic worship is an intuitive outgrowth of his brand of training. the point is, your interpretation was not substantiated enough by those brief descriptions to be incontrovertible; his father may have been an LSI, but that in itself is not grounds for typing him ILI, based on some half-baked inference that only a victim would bow down under the Se helm and grow up to relish its misguided expression in a sociopathic dictator he didn't even have close relations with. the rest is implied.

[Disturbed]

LSI probably Se type.