Heinrich Himmler

[Gilly]

Sounds more like lacking and valuing Fe if you ask me.

[Absurd]

Wasn't that far off posting that particular vid.

[World Socionics]

Sounds more like lacking and valuing Fe if you ask me.

If I had a choice between Se and Fe in his Superid block, I'd say the former is more supported.

[World Socionics]

Wasn't that far off posting that particular vid.

The documentary one?

[Absurd]

The documentary one?

Nope. The one in "Tcaud has been killed" thread and on first glance that guy strikes me beta or something but I didn't pay much attention if any to him, so I can be wrong.

[Gilly]

If I had a choice between Se and Fe in his Superid block, I'd say the former is more supported.

By...what exactly?

[Saberstorm]

[World Socionics]

By...what exactly?

"I still lack to a considerable degree that naturally superior kind of manner that I would dearly like to possess." Heinrich Himmler

This.

[Gilly]

This.

No, its not.

[Ryan]

Actually, Gilly's right—that is more Fe-seeking. Himmler's referring to a certain persona he desires having, a dispositional attitude he'd like to impress upon himself and project to others. He's not referring to a certain perceptual state of intensive situational awareness he'd like to experience, which would be more the province of Se-seeking.

He is, however, still uncertain about his own character. In November 1921, in his twenty-second year, he writes: ‘I still lack to a considerable degree that naturally superior kind of manner (die vornehme Sicherheit des Benehmens) that I would dearly like to possess.’

I did a quick google translation, "die vornehme Sicherheit des Benehmens" translates into "the noble, refined confident behaviour."

[Gilly]

Sounds like Fe to me

[Ryan]

Yeah .

[World Socionics]

Actually, Gilly's right—that is more Fe-seeking. Himmler's referring to a certain persona he desires having, a dispositional attitude he'd like to impress upon himself and project to others. He's not referring to a certain perceptual state of intensive situational awareness he'd like to experience, which would be more the province of Se-seeking.

A persona of greater power i.e. force. We're talking about a man fixated on the idea of Aryan superiority i.e. the ability to forcibly conquer other races. I highly doubt he would be referring to the ability to emotionally affect the people around him when the NAZI philosophy centered around the value of superiority in the very Se sense of the word.

Besides, when was the last time an inferiority complex was seen as a common trait for a SLE? I don't believe Fe HA or even suggestive Fe commonly manifests this way in comparison to the blatant power-seeking tendencies of numerous people with Se HA types.

[World Socionics]

Sounds like Fe to me

"Noble and refined" sounds more Fi valuing to me than Fe. Indeed, to be refined means to NOT engage in the overly expressive tendencies of an Fe dominant.

As for the "confident" side, it could easily be Se-seeking. This strongly reminds me of Ni-ego and its tendency to be a Victim in the Gulenko sense i.e. the person who is full of doubt and hesitation and who looks to someone (the Aggressor) who is confident in their interest towards the Victim.

[Gilly]

Sighnoobs...

He's talking about how he wants to have greater control over how he is seen by others. This is the domain of Fe, and he is expressing it in a classic super I'd manner.

[World Socionics]

Noob

He's talking about how he wants to be seen by others. This is the domain of Fe.

[World Socionics]

Sighnoobs...

He's talking about how he wants to have greater control over how he is seen by others. This is the domain of Fe, and he is expressing it in a classic super I'd manner.

I don't see where he says that it's to do with how he's seen by others.

[Scapegrace]

I sincerely hope that 95% of what has been said in this thread is a joke. God help us if you idiots are serious.

[World Socionics]

Apparently you don't English very well; see sense #2 in particular:

manner |ˈmanər|
noun
1 a way in which a thing is done or happens: taking notes in an unobtrusive manner.
• a style in literature or art: a dramatic poem in the manner of Goethe.
• Grammar a semantic category of adverbs and adverbials that answer the question “how?”: an adverb of manner.
• (manner of) chiefly literary a kind or sort of: what manner of man is he?
2 a person's outward bearing or way of behaving toward others: his arrogance and pompous manner | a shy and diffident manner.
3 (manners) polite or well-bred social behavior: didn't your mother teach you any manners?

I "don't English" very well?
I'm perfectly aware of the different meanings of 'manner'. What I'm not perfectly aware of is:

1. Whether he meant the first definition of 'manner' or the second.
2. If the second, whether he meant the ability to project any manner he chooses onto others (Fe) or to just have the naturally assured manner of someone with Se in their ego. I could say that I wish I had the comforting, noble and caring manner that I severely lack but I could very much be seeking Si rather than Fe.

[Ver]

I'd say gamma>beta and my first bet is ISFj. I'd have to read more.

[Ver]

I'd say he actually looks ILI.

I agree.

[Absurd]

Well

You have to read my books someday, Ver. To hell with that, anyone who reads them and gets it, I offer my kingdom.

[Suz]

Reading that huge quote describing his career in this thread, ISTj seems pretty clear to me. His passion in life was defining and shaping a rigid order with an iron fist, i'd say DISREGARDING all ethics in favor of this creepy fanaticism with a particular world order. That's a classic LSI mentality i'd say.

And who says ISTj's dont smile or can't look "sweet"? (check Reese Witherspoone and Zooey Deschanel with their ridiculously bubbly smiles and sweet looks)

[Ver]

Well

You have to read my books someday, Ver. To hell with that, anyone who reads them and gets it, I offer my kingdom.

I'm wondering what your books are about... but yes, I'd definitely give it a try .

[Absurd]

I'm wondering what your books are about... but yes, I'd definitely give it a try .

About sycophancy.

[Gilly]

I don't see where he says that it's to do with how he's seen by others.

...Really?

[Ver]

About sycophancy.

OMG I even had to check that word. That's quite broad a subject, isn't it?

[Absurd]

OMG I even had to check that word. That's quite broad a subject, isn't it?

It is when coupled with people on a socionics board and and their self-typings not to mention real life.

[Ver]

Absurd Absurd I'm not sure if you interest me or scare me .

[World Socionics]

...Really?

Check above.

[strrrng]

A persona of greater power i.e. force. We're talking about a man fixated on the idea of Aryan superiority i.e. the ability to forcibly conquer other races. I highly doubt he would be referring to the ability to emotionally affect the people around him when the NAZI philosophy centered around the value of superiority in the very Se sense of the word.

except that the movement's EIE figurehead exemplified the 'naturally superior kind of manner' himmler admired.

[Absurd]

Absurd Absurd I'm not sure if you interest me or scare me .

I'm not scary

[World Socionics]

except that the movement's EIE figurehead exemplified the 'naturally superior kind of manner' himmler admired.

Did he? Was black haired, brown eyed Adolph the vision of Aryan superiority?

I think ****** was more seen as a sort of 'divine' messenger than the standard to be followed.

[Gilly]

Did he? Was black haired, brown eyed Adolph the vision of Aryan superiority?

I think ****** was more seen as a sort of 'divine' messenger than the standard to be followed.

You would be wrong. ****** may not have had stereotypical Aryan features, but he was seen as embodying German-ness and the spirit and personality of Aryans: he was a war hero, inventor, artist, etc, and was seen by Germans of the Nazi era as a national father figure, an embodiment of all that the German people should aspire to be.

You really thought he was just a fancy talker? Shame on you.

Himmler isn't talking about Aryan-ness in the quote; he's talking about a particular way of carrying and presenting himself, which is probably befitting Aryan-ness in Himmler's mind, but I doubt it has anything to do with blue eyes and blond hair.

[Gilly]

I did a quick google translation, "die vornehme Sicherheit des Benehmens" translates into "the noble, refined confident behaviour."

@echidna1000 I think you missed this

[Gilly]

If this isn't all making sense, maybe you aren't fully comprehending the idea of the Aryan ubermensch and the philosophies motivating the Nazi movement. It wasn't just about making a world full of pretty people, but rather cultivating a dominant race of genetically superior beings. ****** definitely fell into this lot in the eyes of the German people: brave war hero,confident and inspiring leader, intelligent strategist...he wasn't the full stereotype, but he embodied the idea of the Ubermensch in a way that all Nazis, including Himmler, sought to emulate.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Obvious LSI is obvious.

[strrrng]

Did he? Was black haired, brown eyed Adolph the vision of Aryan superiority?

I think ****** was more seen as a sort of 'divine' messenger than the standard to be followed.

which is only further testament to the potency of his demeanor, hence Fe-dominance.

[World Socionics]

If this isn't all making sense, maybe you aren't fully comprehending the idea of the Aryan ubermensch and the philosophies motivating the Nazi movement. It wasn't just about making a world full of pretty people, but rather cultivating a dominant race of genetically superior beings. ****** definitely fell into this lot in the eyes of the German people: brave war hero,confident and inspiring leader, intelligent strategist...he wasn't the full stereotype, but he embodied the idea of the Ubermensch in a way that all Nazis, including Himmler, sought to emulate.

But the display of passion and emotion was not something Himmler warmed to, indeed he advocated the clinical deletion of undesirables without a shred of sadistic passion:

"The 'emotional' terrorism practised by Ernst Rohm's shock troops with a blend of political and criminal techniques gave way to its rational counterpart, a central bureaucracy systematically employing terrorism as an institution. The new type of man of violence recruited by Himmler was concerned with the dispassionate extermination of real or possible opponents, not with the primitive release of sadistic impulses. Whatever sadism occurred, particularly in the concentration camps, was included by Himmler among those 'exceptional cases of human weakness' of which he had spoken in his Poznan speech quoted above; they occurred in contradiction of the 'idea' of the type."

What ****** and Himmler shared was instead the appreciation of strength and power, the worship of might. ******, with his Se HA, made sure that the public image of him was of this powerful, SLE-ish character, a character to be feared and obeyed rather than loved. Himmler himself very much seemed to fixate on authority and far less on charisma:

"I know that there are many people in Germany who feel sick when they see this black tunic; we can understand that." — Heinrich Himmler

If we look at Himmler's personality, behind the intimidating mask of his institutional power, we actually find a character severely lacking in Se:

"He looked to me like an intelligent elementary schoolteacher, certainly not a man of violence. I could not for the life of me see anything outstanding or extraordinary about this middle-sized, youthfully slender man in grey SS uniform. Under a brow of average height two grey-blue eyes looked out at me, behind glittering pince-nez, with an air of peaceful interrogation. The trimmed moustache below the straight, well-shaped nose traced a dark line on his unhealthy, pale features. The lips were colourless and very thin. Only the inconspicuous, receding chin surprised me. The skin of his neck was flaccid and wrinkled. With a broadening of his constant, set smile, faintly mocking and sometimes contemptuous about the corners of the mouth, two rows of excellent white teeth appeared between the thin lips. His slender, pale and almost girlishly soft hands, covered with blue veins, lay motionless on the table throughout our conversation."

Rather than the powerful authoritarian he sought to be, Himmler was far more the obedient phlegmatic. Indeed he was more of a servant to ****** than an appreciated equal :

"****** called Himmler's mystical and pseudoreligious interests "nonsense".[197] Himmler was not a member of ******'s inner circle; the two men were not very close, and rarely saw each other socially.[198][189] Himmler socialised almost exclusively with other members of the SS.[199] His unconditional loyalty and efforts to please ****** earned him the nickname of der treue Heinrich ("the faithful Heinrich"). In the last days of the war, when it became clear that ****** planned to die in Berlin, Himmler left his long-time superior to try to save himself.[200]" This is far more recognisable as an assymetrical relation rather than that of Duality, hence I am in support of Supervision.

Himmler, while a great organiser of systems and organisations, was better at patiently climbing to the top of the organisation by being reliable. When it came to acting in the thick of it, such as with the military, he ended up withdrawing from his duties instead of conquering them...

"Himmler seldom left the train, only worked about four hours per day, and insisted on a daily massage and a lengthy nap afterwards.[157] He was unable to devise any viable plans for completion of the military objectives. Under pressure from ****** over the worsening military situation, Himmler became anxious and unable to give him coherent reports.[158] ****** was unwilling to admit that his choice of commander had been inadequate."

A look into his childhood reveals much:

"Heinrich was born in Munich (October 7, 1900). He was not a healthy boy. Severe respiratory infection at age 2. Another illness at 6 when he began school. Sick again (1906). These illneses left him with a life time concern over his health and worry about the slightest indisposition, in short a hypocondriac. As a young man he was commonly seen as a harmless fussdudget. He and his brothers grew up in a staunchly middle-class, comfortable Catholic German family. He was nearsighted and had to wear glasses. He was not popular with the other boys, in part because he was not physically coordinated. Many did respect the grades he got in school and his diligence."

"Fellow students remember him as studious, and awkward in social situations.[6]"

His father, however, was very much a LSI, micromanaging Himmler's childhood with an iron fist. He would even go so far as to edit Himmler's diary and research the families of Himmler's classmates so as to provide him with a list of who he should befriend.

"The man who wrote some of the most terrible chapters in German history was born in Munich on 7th October 1900. His family atmosphere and all the main impressions of his years of development were evidently decisively influenced by the personality of his father, who, as the son of a police president, a former tutor to the princes at the Bavarian court, and a head-master, also applied authoritarian principles in his own household. He was austere, precise and pious. No doubt it would be going too far to see in the son's early interest in Teutonic sagas, criminology and military affairs the beginnings of his later development, but the family milieu, with its combination of 'officialdom, police work and teaching', (18) manifestly had a lasting effect on him. His opposition to his father's discipline and upbringing may have engendered a kind of dependence that later expressed itself as a complex need to look up to someone and surrender himself to that person. His fanatical concern with education, which led him continually to try to teach and impart axioms for living, was doubtless also largely the outcome of his early years. The doctor Felix Kersten, who treated him continuously from 1939 onwards and enjoyed his confidence, has asserted that Himmler himself would rather have educated foreign peoples than exterminate them.(19) During the war he spoke enthusiastically—looking ahead to peace—of establishing military units who were 'educated and trained, once education and training can be practised again'.(20)"
^^^ if this is not Victim-esque, Te-valuing, Gamma NT, I don't know what is.

"He was the most colourless personality in the inner circle of the leaders of the Third Reich; he possessed no natural authority and his 'charisma' was that of a head teacher." I can't remember the last time anyone referred to a Beta as 'colourless'.

In short, I can understand why many people think Himmler was an LSI, indeed I think he subconsciously tried to project this image as much as possible, not just to satisfy the Ti/Se seeking nature of ******, but also to emulate his Benefactor father. Nevertheless, I think there are factors to consider, namely his valuing of Te over Fe and Ti (which fits demonstrative perfectly) and even more so, his blatant lack of Se despite clearly valuing it, that rule out LSI as far as I can see and very much support ILI.

[Beautiful sky]

SLI