Comparisons between the Astrology, Zodiac, Socionics, MBTI, Alchemy, Numerology and Taoism

[Angel von Himmel]

Let's be clear: as the topic creator it is YOUR JOB to explain your concept. We cannot know what you are thinking unless you explain yourself in appropriate terms.

Alright ... essentially I have worked the whole thing down to one chart, which I think that when studied could lead to a 1:1 understanding on how alchemy, astrology, and socionics fits together. All of the unnecessary astrological elements have been stripped out and there is no need for further commenting on any bits of astrology already mentioned unless absolutely necessary.

I also have one more version of the 36 strategems from china that I rewrote according to specific instances of Chinese and war history that are applicable. This file here is more or less the fail safe to show that this is practical useful stuff and not just some nonsensical astrological bullshit that someone might want to rip apart because they think it is stupid. In fact, I would agree that most of astrology today is stupid and pointless. Taking that, here is the file of the 36 strategies here to show that there are practical useful things to be found in this that can have 1:1 [potential] correspondences to socionics.

The file is listed here.

http://www.the16types.info/other_36_interpretation.pdf

Here it is the new chart:

[tcaudilllg]

I've got to admit, I'm seeing some intuitive correspondence. Certainly a diverse council could have designed these and effectively created a typological representation.

But now the next part: you've got to clarify the intuition.

[Hitta]

Well, Rmcnew, in Indian astrology and other kinds of astrology, they break down the Zodiac signs into things called Nakshatra. Each Nakshatra is dependent on a star or star set within a constellation. Each Nakshatra has somewhat independent(though somewhat dependent on the constellation) traits.

There are 27 Nakshatra


AriesAshwini Bharani Krittika(1 pada)
TaurusKrittika(2-4 pada) Rohani Mrigastra(1-2 pada)
GeminiMrigastra(3-4 pada) Aridra Punavarsu(1-3 pada)
CancerPunavarsu(4 pada) Pusha Ashlesha
Leo Magha Purvaphalguni Uttaraphalguni(1 pada)
VirgoUttaraphalguni(2-4 pada) Hasta Chitra(1-2 pada)
Libra Chitra(3-4 pada) Swati Visashaki(1-3 pada)
ScorpioVisashaki(4 pada) Anuradha Jyestha
SagittariusMula Poorvashada Uttarashadha(1 pada)
CapricornUttarashadha(2-4 pada) Sravana Dhanistha(1-2 pada)
AquariusDhanistha(3-4 pada) Shatabhistha Purvabhrada(1-3 pada)
Pisces Purvabhrada(4 pada) Uttarabhrada Revati

Each one of these Nakshatra consists of 4 subgroups called pada. There are 9 pada in every zodiac sign. This means that Krittika is in both Aries and Taurus.


Each pada represents 1 constellation of each zodiac sign. So the first pada of Ashwini will be in Aries. The second pada will be in Taurus. The third in Gemini. Fourth in Cancer. First pada of Bharini will be in Leo. Second Virgo. Third Swati. Fourth Scorpio. It basically just keeps going like this.


1st pada of every Nakshatra will be a Fire Sign(Aries Leo Sagittarius)
2nd pada of every Nakshatra will be an Earth Sign(Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn)
3rd pada of every Nakshatra will be an Air Sign(Gemini, Libra, Aquarius)
4th pada of every Nakshatra will be a Water Sign(Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces)

Each pada has sort of hidden energies based on the sign it is in. For instance, in a Virgo pada, the sign will be the analytical side of the Nakshatra.

To read the Nakshatra descriptions go here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6...38ba0f1ae4093d


The padas are 9ths divisions that make up the Navamsha chart, which shows a persons desires and beliefs.

[Lotus]

You said I was Anuradha. Like Jim Morrison and Bob Marley apparently.

[aka-kitsune]

wow, that looks like a lot of work. boggles my wee little mind.

so, one thing I always wondered about this sort of thing. does it mean that at any given day, all of the babies born in the world are going to be... alike? I mean, like with the same personality? does that make sense?

The daily "horoscopes" you see in the papers, etc. are only derived from Sun signs. If one were to cast your entire chart, there would be shades of difference. From place to place, from year to year, from hour to hour and even moment to moment.

Again, astrology used as a starting point for insights into personality isn't the same as using a horoscope to rule your life fatalistically.

[redbaron]

The daily "horoscopes" you see in the papers, etc. are only derived from Sun signs. If one were to cast your entire chart, there would be shades of difference. From place to place, from year to year, from hour to hour and even moment to moment.

Oh okay! Interesting! thanks.

[Hitta]

You said I was Anuradha. Like Jim Morrison and Bob Marley apparently.

Depending on your time of birth, you are Jyestha or Anuradha. You never really told me your correct ToB.

[Angel von Himmel]

One question, Scorpio was listed as a water sign and Capricorn and earth sign. If Capricorn is the sea goat, wouldn't he be under water signs?

Aquarius is also known as the "water bearer", but the element is air. So, the names do not always match the element they are under.

[Angel von Himmel]

I've got to admit, I'm seeing some intuitive correspondence. Certainly a diverse council could have designed these and effectively created a typological representation.

But now the next part: you've got to clarify the intuition.

Just out of curiosity, how would you think that this sort of intuition can be clarified ... ?

[tcaudilllg]

Just out of curiosity, how would you think that this sort of intuition can be clarified ... ?

Well you've outlined the model quite clearly. Now you need to explain it case-by-case.

You've got a long road ahead of you, I'm afraid.

[Angel von Himmel]

Well you've outlined the model quite clearly. Now you need to explain it case-by-case.

You've got a long road ahead of you, I'm afraid.

I think I have an idea how to do that; time to make something new and fun for everyone.

[redbaron]

I think I have an idea how to do that; time to make something new and fun for everyone.

AWESOME!!

[Angel von Himmel]

[Socionics Is A Cult]

This message is endorsed by rmcnew.

[Angel von Himmel]

Functions as they relate to the elements:

Ni = Intuition, Introverted, Fire, North, South, East, West, Locations, Goals, Directions, Separation, Time.

Si = Sensing, Introverted, Air, Centralization, Consistency, Connectivity, Shelter, Bonding, Space.

Ne = Intuition, Extroverted, Fire, Bait, Gain, Locations, Energy, Movement, Occurrences, Events, Freedom, Potential.

Se = Guidance, Extroverted, Air, Resistance, Centralization, Blocks, Plugs, Restriction, Territory.

Fe = Feeling, Extroverted, Attraction, Water, Infection, Warmness, Enthusiasm.

Te = Thinking, Extroverted, Structure, Earth, Obstacles, Funnels, Mazes, Efficiency

Fi = Feeling, Introverted, Water, Repulsion, Kindness, Coldness, Isolation.

Ti = Thinking, Introverted, Earth, Categories, Balance, Leeway, Layers.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Alpha = Spring, Wet
Beta = Summer, Hot
Gamma = Autumn, Dry
Delta = Winter, Cold

---------------------------------------------------------------

Functions as they exist in the houses as types:

----------------------------------------------
01 House - Aries -------- ESFj [ENTp]
02 House - Taurus ------- ISFp [INTj]
03 House - Gemini ------- ESTp [ENTp]
04 House - Cancer ------- INFp [ISTj]
05 House - Leo ---------- ENFj [ESTp]
06 House - Virgo -------- ISTj [ISFj]
07 House - Libra -------- ENTj [ESFp]
08 House - Scorpio ------ INTp [ISFj]
09 House - Sagittarius -- ENFp [ESFp]
10 House - Capricorn ---- ISTp [INFj]
11 House - Aquarius ----- ESTj [ENFp]
12 House - Pisces ------ INFj [INTj]

-----------------------------------------------------------

03 House - Gemini - "Airs relation to Fire"
06 House - Virgo - "Earths relation to Water"
09 House - Sagittarius - "Fires relation with Air"
12 House - Pisces - "Waters relation with Earth"

-----------------------------------------------------------

Above Functions and Elements:
Ne(Fire),Se(Air),Fe(Water),Te(Earth)

Below Functions and Elements:
Ni(Fire),Si(Air),Fi(Water),Ti(Earth)

Mixed Functions:
Fe - Water occupying Fire or Air Space
Te - Earth occupying Air or Fire Space
Si - Air occupying Earth or Water Space
Ni - Fire occupying Water or Earth Space

Pure Functions:
Ne - Pure Fire
Se - Pure Air
Fi - Pure Water
Ti - Pure Earth

If you put that all together you get something like the chart below:




The 36 Stratagems from China are also applied to this:



They can be found at these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Strategies
http://www.pipeline.com/~tkd-pix/36_strat.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/5882/36s.html
http://ivan070.tripod.com/id55.html

[Angel von Himmel]

This is a simple pictoral representation of my understanding of socionics and how it relates to alchemy and the types ENTj,INTp,ENTp,and INTj.

ENTp

EGO ---BASE: (Ne) CARROT LEADING STUBBORN DONKEY AND ENCOURAGING TO MOVE

EGO CREATIV: (Ti) A SMALL INFERIOR FISH BEING SWALLOWED BY LARGER SUPERIOR FISH

SUPER-ID HA: (Fe) A COMFORTABLE FROG SLOWLY BEING BOILED AND CONTENT TO STAY IN A LUKEWARM POT

SUPER-ID SG: (Si) THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOLID EARTH AND COLLAPSIBLE EARTH

INTp

EGO ---BASE: (Ni) DIRECTIONS OF THE COMPASS AND THE SEPARATE LOCATIONS OF NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, WEST

EGO CREATIV: (Te) FUNNEL THAT PICKS UP MATERIAL IN ONE SPOT AND SPITS DIFFRENT MATERIAL INTO COLLECTIVE SPOTS NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, AND WEST

SUPER-ID HA: (Fi) ONE CONVINCES A DEADLY SCORPION TO RIDE A RELUCTANT FROG TO AN ISLAND AND THEY BOTH DROWN.

SUPER-ID SG: (Se) A THIEF IS CAUGHT IN THE NIGHT AND FORCED TO STAY PUT IN HIS TRACKS, AS HIS ESCAPE ROUTE IS CUT OFF FROM HIM

ENTj
EGO ---BASE: (Te) A MAZE OF OBSTACLES THAT ARE PLACED DOWN IN ORDER TO CHART PROGRESS. GOING THE WRONG WAY IS A SET-BACK AND TAKES TIME. THE OBJECT IS TO NAVIGATE THROUGH THE MAZE QUICKLY.

EGO CREATIV: (Ni) THE EFFICENCY OF TIME AND HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET THROUGH A MAZE. A STARTPOINT AND END POINT.

SUPER-ID HA: (Se) PLACEING A SNAKE IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE MAZE TO DISCOURAGE A THING FROM GOING THE WRONG WAY. SOMETHING THAT GOES THROUGH THE MAZE MAY EITHER CONTINUE ON THE RIGHT PATH OR BE DISCOURAGED BY THE SNAKE AND QUIT THE MAZE ALTOGETHER.

SUPER-ID SG: (Fi) PUTTING SOMETHING ON AN ICEBURG TO AVOID THE CHILL OF FREEZING WATER, ONLY FOR THE ICEBURG TO MELT AND EVERYTHING TO BE EVENTUALLY LOST ANYWAYS.

INTj
EGO ---BASE: (Ti) AN EARTHQUAKE FAULT THAT RUMBLES ON ONE SIDE, THE OTHER SIDE, OR BOTH SIDES.

EGO CREATIV: (Ne) A VOLCANO THAT SPITS OUT FUMES, LAVA, AND SMOKE. IT MAKES ALOT OF NOISE, BUT MAY NOT HAVE TRUE CAUSE TO ERUPT.

SUPER-ID HA: (Si) AS THE VOLCANO ERUPT AND EARTHQUAKES SHAKE THE EARTH. WHAT IS SPARED? AN INTACT VILLAGE IS MORE COMFORTABLE THAN A FLOWED OVER ONE.

SUPER-ID SG: (Fe) SHAKE A FRUIT TREE JUST TO SEE WHAT TYPE OF FRUIT DROPS OUT OF THE TREE.

[Angel von Himmel]

That is exactly the way that the "Art of War" says that battles are won in relationship to the Tao, you gauge the enemies "weakness" in their "form" and then strike the heart. Now, not necessarily the general himself, but the whole "form" of the army. Alternatively, you can stay "formless" and not show any strength or weakness, then you are unknowable and not showing any strength or weakness, where with you then "adapt" to the forms of others in such a way to ensure victory.

[GallopingQwerty]

At the risk of sounding completely flakey and hippie-like... has anyone else experienced a connection between their socionics type and astrology?

For example, everyone I've ever come across who shares my birthday (or is very close) is extremely similar to my own personality... including one person I've spotted so far on this board! Same birthday (though different year), same socionics type AND subtype.

Has this happened with anyone else? Or just me?

[Existential Potato]

Heh, astrology has a few inconsistencies. For example, many of the astrology signs and ideas are based off of when a certain star structure is behind a sun or something, and as it turns out they had to 'adjust' the numbers (numbers being how long these stars are behind the sun and when) so they all occur at even intervals to make astrology more mainstream (i.e. you were born in these months so you're so and so because of this, but in reality you aren't that because 'this' isn't even occuring when you're born). I'm concerned that I might be confusing you further .

[GallopingQwerty]

Oh believe me potato, I agree That's why it is so strange to me that this is something I've noticed.

I have yet to meet someone born within a few days of myself that does not act like we're at the very least closely related, if not the very same personality type. And, looking at the people close to me in my life, they all fall within four specific types AND astrological signs, and wouldn't ya know it, the types and astro signs line up together.

Perhaps this is a giant coincidence, and I should run to the store right now and invest in lotto tickets.

[DividedsGhost]

well...if you really think about...all form of communication and environmental stimuli has a hint of cognitive absorption and adaptation to it in our minds. The most critical are the kinds that go by unnoticed or unconsciously. It can be hard at times to really be sure about anything when you question and look for perfect reasoning that backs up every thought you have. It is most apparent in psychology - where there tends to be those who believe it is all nonsense used to control people (because none of it can be proven) and those who think it is valid, observable, and can be supported and used constructively to understand, direct, and help people.

So, they pretty much are the same thing, except Socionics is more useful, applicable, hierarchical, and recognizing and supporting of all the types than astrology could ever be. But that's not to say that if you see certain astrological traits and signs in people that you are thinking nonsense. No...rather you are processing what you know, or think you know, or are coming to think you know, about those people. And that is never an incorrect approach, where the perceived usefulness of the approach is the only weighing proof of validity that wages war between people, in their thoughts and their ideas.

What the group agrees upon is what becomes the truth. You can try to sway that truth by putting in various experimental input along the way, but the result becomes the only real truth, a fact, a history, and it's amazing in its morphing momentum.

[Mattie]

Astrology is probably the most popular cause of the Forer effect. There's been enough studies to show that everyone sees themselves in the general language that comes along with astrology. It's good to know about the Forer effect, though, for MBTI and Socionics as well, as people do fall victim to it here on occasion.

[3RainbowSprinkles]

in relation to the dual children link...i also thought that maybe people go their personality types from the outside influences. They did some new work with genes since the genome project to find that outside influences (even while we are in the womb) can 'switch' our genes on and off...why not the planets alignment and such? just like with personality theory, its all about finding the right info...which would seem to be MUCH harder because of all the pseudoscience out there. There's a site that asks not only for your birthday, but for the time and location of your birth, which made for a much more detailed description. I need to find the link. I'll post it when i get it.

[GallopingQwerty]

in relation to the dual children link...i also thought that maybe people go their personality types from the outside influences. They did some new work with genes since the genome project to find that outside influences (even while we are in the womb) can 'switch' our genes on and off...why not the planets alignment and such?

I've often wondered about that. Not to get too oooky here, but a good everyday example of this is a woman's period (oh no guys, THAT has been brought up, run! run!!), the majority of women have them on the full or new moon: this also happens with babies, during a full moon more than 4 times the usual number of women go into labor. The running theory has been that something about the moon's pull on the earth causes it... and if one planetary influence causes so much to happen on a regular basis, is it really such a stretch to think that other planetary bodies might do the same thing?

There's a site that asks not only for your birthday, but for the time and location of your birth, which made for a much more detailed description. I need to find the link. I'll post it when i get it.

Is it Astrology and Horoscope Homepage - Astrodienst ?

[Morcheeba]

At the risk of sounding completely flakey and hippie-like... has anyone else experienced a connection between their socionics type and astrology?

For example, everyone I've ever come across who shares my birthday (or is very close) is extremely similar to my own personality... including one person I've spotted so far on this board! Same birthday (though different year), same socionics type AND subtype.

Has this happened with anyone else? Or just me?

I've never thought about this, but it's a compelling idea. Astrology is very complex, but unfortunately the general public knows very little about it, (other than their sun sign)
I don't believe in coincidence; I'm a virgo, and even though the description of such doesn't fit completely; there are other considerations to put forth such as, moon sign, rising sign and so on.
I find it interesting that Michael Jackson (an EIE as well) is a virgo; and I was supposed to be born on the same day he was, but I decided I would stick around for another couple of weeks. His sensitivity is something that I can closely relate to.

[tereg]

One of the previous owners of this forum spent a considerable amount of time trying to prove the connection between the Zodiac and Socionics.

Here is a couple of examples (of many) threads/posts he made about the subject

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...astrology.html

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...me-people.html

[Jarno]

At the risk of sounding completely flakey and hippie-like... has anyone else experienced a connection between their socionics type and astrology?

For example, everyone I've ever come across who shares my birthday (or is very close) is extremely similar to my own personality... including one person I've spotted so far on this board! Same birthday (though different year), same socionics type AND subtype.

Has this happened with anyone else? Or just me?

no there is no relationship.

[Trevor]

Has this happened with anyone else? Or just me?

Yeah. It happens to me every day.

[Morcheeba]

no there is no relationship.

I disagree, I think it has to do with the alignment of the planets. Each year we have constant interference within our solar system. Even a slight deviation in rotation of the planets will cause someone of the same type to act very differently.

[Trevor]

I disagree, I think it has to do with the alignment of the planets. Each year we have constant interference within our solar system. Even a slight deviation in rotation of the planets will cause someone of the same type to act very differently.

Veeeeery differently? Yeah right, I agree.

[Morcheeba]

Very differently? Yeah right, I agree.

I take it you disagree? Why? Haven't you met people of the same type who act differently? What makes some for instance with an hidden agenda different from someone with the same HA? Many factors play into it. There are plenty of people of the same type who act very differently. Some people are very good with their HA, while others it is almost non-existent. Still others, get stuck in their role function, while others are slaves to their ego functions. Must be a reason for this, wouldn't you say?

[Jarno]

I take it you disagree? Why? Haven't you met people of the same type who act differently? What makes some for instance with an hidden agenda different from someone with the same HA? Many factors play into it. There are plenty of people of the same type who act very differently. Some people are very good with their HA, while others it is almost non-existent. Still others, get stuck in their role function, while others are slaves to their ego functions.

Must be a reason for this, wouldn't you say?

and the most likely reason for this is astrology?

[Trevor]

Haven't you met people of the same type who act differently?

Hell yes!!!

What makes some for instance with an :se: hidden agenda different from someone with the same HA?

I believe it's because many factors play into it.

There are plenty of people of the same type who act very differently.

Wow........fuck yeah, dude!!!

Some people are very good with their HA, while others it is almost non-existent. Still others, get stuck in their role function, while others are slaves to their ego functions. Must be a reason for this, wouldn't you say?

Yes, I would say so. It is due to various planet constellations doing their job.

[marooned]

The power of human imagination is really a wonderful and terrible thing at once in creating answers that can be believed and creating truth while being the cause of making most of us incapable of being truly objective.

Yep. I generally think be careful what you believe because the mind is easily capable of believing anything and creating an entire world where that belief is supported as an undeniable truth. This is why I'm generally very hesitant to consider anything a certainty.

---

That said I identify with a lot of things in my chart and find astrology interesting. I don't really take it seriously though, but I don't think it's impossible for there to be truth to it... it's just that nothing I've encountered thus far has really lent it any validity to any satisfaction for me. And I agree that due to its vague way of presenting things, it's easy for anyone to see themselves in their charts. I also generally find that with palmistry and astrology the source of insight comes from the practitioner's insight into themselves, others and the universe, not so much from the tool that they are using, so I tend to see palmistry and astrology as both providing tools/contexts to channel insight through in ways that may be useful.

[Morcheeba]

and the most likely reason for this is astrology?

No life is much more complex then that, I think astrology is merely a starting point, a foundation of who we are when we are born into the world without being corrupted by life. When we are born there is a reason for the time and place, so I believe that fate, circumstances, and free will play a huge part in how we develop as well.
That's why there are so many viewpoints in psychology that try to determine why people are the way they are. Life is full of complexities and our feeble minds can't begin to understand the implications of it all. This is the reason we have philosophy and religion; they are all true their own right. Anything that has been thought up has truth in it, but being humans, we have limited understanding as to how so many viewpoints can be accurate.

[Smilingeyes]

My ESTj horoscope

ESTj possess a gentle, patient, malleable nature.
ESTj have many generous qualities and are friendly, good natured, kind and compassionate, sensitive to the feelings of those around them, and respond with the utmost sympathy and tact to any suffering they encounter.
ESTj are deservedly popular with all kinds of people, partly because their easygoing, affectionate, submissive natures offer no threat or challenge to stronger and more exuberant characters.
ESTj accept the people around them and the circumstances in which they find themselves rather than trying to adapt them to suit themselves, and they patiently wait for problems to sort themselves out rather than take the initiative in solving them.

ESTj natures tend to be too otherworldly for the practical purposes of living in this world as it is.
ESTj sometimes exist emotionally rather than rationally, instinctively more than intellectually (depending on how they are aspected).
The nine-to-five life is not for ESTjs.
ESTj tend to withdraw into a dream world where their qualities can bring mental satisfaction and sometimes, fame and financial reward for they are extremely gifted artistically.

My socionics type and horoscope are SO in tune in with each other...

[Morcheeba]

Smiling eyes, where did you get this info.?

[Smilingeyes]

Smiling eyes, where did you get this info.?

It's just a random personality horoscope wherein I changed the actual sun sign into my socionics type. I bet you could find it by googling some sentences (without the "estj").

[Smilingeyes]

The trick with astrology is that there is a lot more to a sun sign so your natal chart with planets, signs, houses, and aspects are liable to be diverse enough to paint such a general picture that it's hard not to identify with most or all of it to some extent.

*thumbs up*

[Existential Potato]

Hang on a sec, astrology contradicts itself. Whether you are born under a certain sign is determined by the position of the sun in relation to the sign's designated group of stars. It would be dandy if astrology make some weird system as it has now to do with these signs and certain aspects of personality (er, minus the massive lack of objective evidence and substantial amounts of inaccurate predictions).

The problem with the signs system is that it doesn't follow its own rules; the sun does not actually pass over these groups of stars in the length astrology would have you believe. The length actually varies a lot, making for very inaccurate signs. It was re-purposed for mass consumption (and most of their descriptions/explanations are kind of mystical in nature, which lets them apply to everyone at once edit; kind of what aixelsyd said)