Possibly, both are mutable.Originally Posted by hitta
Possibly, both are mutable.
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That bit about using "troubled water" to catch a fish sounds like using Si to bait potential. You create Si, and something is going to come after it. Opposites attract, and the more specific the opposite, the more specific the attracted. Which sounds to me like you're referring to the path of duality by this astrology thing.
So now are you suggesting that each of the planets is more suitable to one relationship than to another? Every bit of intuition I have is telling me that this is just silly. Even if it were true, one doesn't need to think about it. So what if I'm "seeking after" a given planet in some way that I can do nothing about? The notion is dubious enough, because gravitation (and that's really what we're talking about, general relativity/spatial curvature/null geodesics) goes two ways: the attracted is also the attractor. Even if the attraction is weak, force has no meaning in the context of such considerations because you are still motioning toward the object somewhat. If I am being attracted by a planet, and thus, by the universe which the planet is itself motioning towards, then the universe is being attracted also to the planet, and the planet to me. Astrology can be literally turned on its head, and it can be observed that -I- am the sole determinant of not only my destiny, but that of the planet and the universe. (and the same could be said of you, if you so choose thus). The question, of course, is on what basis I would determine my destiny, and that would of course be to shift your respective positions. Thus your positions determine my activity, but not my intention. It's a feedback loop: the planet determines you; you determine me; I determine you; you determine the planet. Wait a sec though: where is the looping point? It's unclear....
If the planet is moved, then you will be moved with it simultaneously. The mover is the moved... how do you conceptualize that?
Best way to think of the signs and planets is the compare them with the natural planet and sign of each house.
Mars naturally rules the 1st and 8th house . Karaka for the 1st house is body or drive. Karaka for the 8th house is transformation, sudden changes/circumstances of death, and hidden knowledge. These two houses show the two sides of Mars. Aries naturally rules the 1st house. It rules the obvious, go at it purpose side of Mars. It is the apparent, straightforward, competitive side of the planet. The 8th house on the other hand is about the hidden purpose and occultism. Scorpio is a very behind the scenes sign. It is about change, and sudden transformation.
So you have the Fire side of Mars that has an identifiable purpose; and you have the Water side of Mars which is behind the scenes and secretive.
Venus naturally rules the 2nd and 7th houses. Karaka for the 2nd house is weath and values. Karaka for the 7th house is spouse, relationship, contracts, and beauty. These two houses show the two sides of Venus. Taurus naturally rules the 2nd house, which is a house for wealth and riches. Luxury and wealth are the big things here. Taurus naturally likes the sensual side of life. Libra on the other hand rules the 7th house naturally. Libra is the sign of love, beauty, artistic beauty, compassion, romance.
So you have Taurus, which is an Earth sign. Its pretty obvious, as its reliant on Earthly materialistic things. Libra is an Air sign, as it is spontaneous, artistic, and liberal.
Mercury naturally rules the 3rd and the 6th houses. Karaka for the 3rd house is communications(mainly business communications). Karaka for the 6th house is enemies and problems. 3rd house is naturally ruled by Gemini and 6th house is naturally ruled by Virgo. Gemini is a very fast moving sign. Its an intelligent, extremely articulate, and often very culturally diverse sign. When I think of Gemini, I think of foreign business or Wall-street. Virgo on the other hand is the more slow and thought out side of Mercury. It tends to spend much time contemplating things. Virgo likes to get the kinks out of things. It is very exacting, analytical, and technical minded.
Virgo is an earth sign, as it is reliant on details. Gemini is an air sign, as it is fast moving, liberal, and very diversified.
The natural solar and lunar houses are the 4th and the 5th. 4th is ruled by Cancer and the Moon. 5th is ruled by Leo and the Sun. Cancer is a very nurturing, cuddling sign. The 4th house typically is a Karaka for family and education, so it makes sense that it is naturally ruled by Cancer. Cancer wants to be apart of a family environment and loves "togetherness". Sun on the other hand is sort of the opposite. It wants to be independent and creative. 5th house is usually a Karaka for fame and creative intelligence. Sun wants to separate itself from the pack.
Leo is a fire sign, which is obvious, it is ruled by the sign and is fiercely independent. Cancer is a water sign as it is expansive and nurturing.
Jupiter is considered the most auspicious planet in astrology in most schools. Jupiter is the largest planet in the solar system, and usually is the planet of expansion and wisdom. Jupiter rules two signs(Sagittarius and Pisces), which naturally rule the 9th and the 12th house. 9th house is very important, beyond what I will talk about here, as it reveals some hidden things. Sagittarius and Pisces basically rule the two different sides of wisdom and intuition. Sagittarius rules the external, humanistic side of Jupiter. Sagittarius is typically the sign of faith and optimism. It believes in human potential, it wishes to help better it, which typically describes the 9th house. The 9th house is typically the house of religion and philosophy. It reveals the little details behind a person's core belief system. As a matter of fact, it is very common for astrologers to divide a person's chart into 9ths and create and entirely new chart, called the Navamsa. This chart reveals the little intricate workings behind a person's beliefs. Usually if the Navamsa chart doesn't back up the main chart, the fortunes from the main chart usually do not come to pass. The other extremely important house is the 12th house, which is naturally ruled by Pisces. In Indian astrology, the 12th house is referred to as the natural "Moksha" house. It is about loss of ego attachment, intuition, and loss in general. Pisces energy typically is "unreal". Imagination and meditation are very strong for people with strong Piscean energy or strong 12th houses. Pisces strong people typically disconnect from the world into their minds, especially if their thinking planets are wrapped in Pisces.
Sagittarius is a fire sign, as it is strong to get out its message. Fire signs are typically involved somehow in a person's outward identities. Pisces is a water sign. It is expansive and unbiased usually. Pisces typically tries to see through everything straight to the source. It typically hates categorical thought.
Saturn naturally rules the 10th and 11th houses. The 10th house naturally rules career and is naturally ruled by Capricorn. Capricorn is usually a karaka for hard work and following the rules. Capricorn wants approvement and is typically a strong conforming sign. It is an extremely loyal sign. Capricorn energies can lead, though it will usually be at the behest of someone else or some group. Capricorn tends to look at everything as a responsibility. Aquarius in a way is structured, though differently. Aquarius basically is the reformist persona. It is usually trying to get out some broad social viewpoint. It usually wants to systematize things in some revolutionary fashion. The 11th house for this reason is usually the house of social activism, the marketplace, and income. Aquarius wants changes at a steady pace. There was a reason the song Age of Aquarius was made during the hippie age.
Capricorn is a very structured and detailed Earth energy. Aquarius is a highly philosophical and extremely eccentric Air sign.
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Signs of Exaltation and Debilitation
Sun is Exalted in Aries. Sun is Debilitated in Libra.
Moon is Exalted in Taurus. Moon is Debilitated in Scorpio.
Mercury is Exalted in Virgo. Mercury is Debilitated in Pisces.
Jupiter is Exalted in Cancer. Jupiter is Debilitated in Capricorn.
Venus is Exalted in Pisces. Venus is Debilitated in Virgo.
Saturn is Exalted in Libra. Saturn is Debilitated in Aries.
Exaltation signs are the strongest possible place for a planet. Debilitation is the weakest possible place for a sign. By strong and weak, I am referring to energies. The positive and negative results of a sign are completely subjective and exaltation and debilitation do not always mean the best results in a certain scenario.
There are certain planetary combinations that can signify a cancellation of exaltation and a cancellation of debility. These two planetary combinations are referred to as Uccha Bhanga and Neecha Bhanga Raja Yoga. Uccha=exaltation Neecha=debilitation and Bhanga=cancellation. Neecha-Bhanga Raja Yoga produces the best possible results of all the possible combinations for a planet.
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Sun= Soul/Life-force
Moon= Emotions and mentality
Mercury= Intelligence and creativity
Jupiter= Wisdom and spirituality
Venus= Love and Beauty
Saturn= Organization, hard-work
Lagna or Rising sign= body and self.
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Rahu and Ketu
Rahu and Ketu are the Moon's North and South nodes. Just to be quick about it. Rahu is sort of an amplifier and Ketu is sort of a disassociation node. Any house, Rasi, or planet that is in conjunction with Rahu becomes sort of compulsory. Rahu in conjunction with Sun for example may make a person compulsively want to be in the spot light or to compulsively individualize themselves. The person always will feel some sort of shame because of they can not live up to their own expectations.
Ketu on the other hand is a disassociation node. What ever it comes in contact with is sort of hidden and displaced.
Rahu and Ketu are always in opposition to each other, which means that one will always occupy an opposing sign of each other. Virgo is the opposite of Pisces in how it works. So if Rahu is in Pisces, there will be a strong need for ego detachment and disassociation. Ketu will in turn sort of hide Virgo.
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Actually, you have a valid point ... Si does bait potential. I actually attributed Si to Taurus, because the three strategems I have attributed for earth in Venus were about "Baiting things" ...
However, instead I attributed " "troubled water to catch a fish" to scorpio, which I have attributed to INTp. The reason I think it is more attributed to mainlyhas to do with the fact that the strategem is using the "Enviroment" to fuel and further an inwards cause, whereas the
I have attributed to Taurus is simply trying to "turn something subtle into something more physical", which requires baiting the subtle into a vulnerable position to become fixed.
So, what I am saying is that I think that "troubled water" is hinting more at an
Of course, that might lead to questions on how there is any 1:1 correspondence with the scorpio sign being the water element, which should seem to imply.
Now, I think this has to do with groupings of mutual oppositions. For example Fire andand
go together, Air and
and
go together. Earth and
go together, and water and
Now, I suppose this could be shown wrong if there is an inconsistency in what I have said to be accounted for somewhere, but all that means is that there is a better way to describe the phenomenon. Maybe one could find out if you look closely enough.
I never recalled suggesting that unless you just happened to think I implied or eluded to that by inference of something I said.
Look at the below chart:
Also notice that there are 3 degrees per each element among the 12 signs, that equals 36 ... how many Chinese strategems are there ... ? 36!
Rmc if i send you some files, you mind hosting them somewhere.
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Do you take into consideration things like Ascendants? I have a hard time reading some of the charts, I'm not that knowledgeable in astrology for that.
I know a lot of libras (like 8 and quite close), myself included, none of them I'd type as ENTj. Most have Ep temperament, a few are so "airy" they barely seem to be on this planet, I wouldn't consider that as ENTj trait. Or I just misinterpreted that Libras are supposed to be ENTj's?
Lagna and ascendant are the same thing.
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Well I'm not trying to offend Rmcnew by saying this, but people are combinations of different energies through different planets. I'm not really sure you can categorize a type based on just a sign. The signs can be divided as well into things called Nakshatra, which there are 27 of. Each Nakshatra can be divided into 9 pada/Navamsa signs.
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Thanks but that didn't tell me much, where is Lagna in those charts?
The Pink AS is the Lagna. Those charts are used using the Southern Indian Chart system, so the second house from the top left is always Aries.
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I would not say indefinably that all Libras [astronomical] are ENTjs in the same sense that ENTj[socionics] have been attributed to Libra[alchemical] on this chart. I went ahead and showed the difference between the three on the chart in brackets.
I keep saying that over and over again that astrology and alchemy are applied differently, although astrology is more of an 'applied to the stars art" whereas alchemy is more of an "eternal mind" sort of thing. If you stop to note the different is should lend to more understanding of what this means.
In alchemy it is called the law of correspondence, and one does not have to attribute the various stages to a planet to know what this means so long as the law is known. So, it is valid to say this, but take note that science does not currently identify with this application as of yet.
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Just to make sure I got what you mean, "alchemy" that you refer to or "eternal mind" is something like the essence of the person/type which does not nesceseraly equals one's zodiac sign but instead is attributed to a certain zodiac sign?
I think ascendants are more of an astronomical thing than an alchemical thing, but in any case I would say I do not know enough about ascendants to make any comparisons between anything.Do you take into consideration things like Ascendants? I have a hard time reading some of the charts, I'm not that knowledgeable in astrology for that.
No ... that is not what I mean at all.
Alchemy is an art "of the mind" where astrology is an art "of the stars" ... yet, they are both based from knowledge of the same laws.
And you keep assuming that the Zodiac is specifically an astronomical thing. Stop doing that. It is a waste of energy for me to state over and over again that it is not specific to astrology.
Well if astrology has any real value, ascendants are supposed to be quite a big influence. It is supposed to bring elements of other signs into your birth sign, like for example I'm libra and my ascendant is Aries, which is quite a contradicting influence knowing they are oposites.
But yes this is more of an astronomical thing and I assume your not interested.
Wiki: "The ascendant (Image:Ascendant-symbol.png or As), or rising sign, is the zodiacal sign and degree that was ascending on the eastern horizon at the specific time and location of an event. According to astrological theory, celestial phenomena reflect or determine human activity on the principle of 'as above so below'. Thus astrologers believe that the ascendant signifies a person's awakening consciousness, in the same way that the Sun's appearance on the eastern horizon signifies the dawn of a new day.[1]"
Well I still don't understand what art "of the mind" is supposed to be here but there is no need to explain further. Guess i'll leave this thread to it's natural flow as I don't see how I can be of any value here or would understand anything further.
People over the years have done things with astrology that were never a part of alchemy. I would assume [with the fact that alchemy is a mind art] from this that it is much easier to derive 1:1 comparisons from non-astronomical alchemical understandings than introduced astrological ones.
I could also be wrong and there could be a 1:1 comparison with ascendants in astrology and socionics, but then again I have already stated I do not know enough about that so apparently I do not have much to say on the matter. Maybe you could find something I have not seen yet.
The nature v.s. nurture argument. Is there an natural thought in the human mind or is everything dependent on the outside world? This is a hard question to answer. Rationality, everything has to have a reason. Everything to the human mind apparently connects, and we bash through with our stereotypical and categorical logic. "Rationally", a person has to have something to think about in order to think. "Rationally" we can't think about things that don't exist. Reality itself is irrational though. If one were to consider nature to be the catalyst for the human mind(rationally), what was the catalyst for nature itself. What was the original catalyst for the human mind? Do people have inherent thoughts before the catalyst? For people to have inherent thoughts it would be irrational, but reality is irrational so who knows?
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What I am saying is that people have a deluded sense of alchemical meanings, because of overexposure to a misused usage of astrology. It is not really something that could be readily understood unless you take time to study it.
I knew that would be a problem when I first brought this to the forum's attention. So many different meanings for the same thing, and that is besides the fact that legitimate alchemy is an extinct art.
Ascendant is the most important thing in modern astrology. It sets up a person's houses and how everything in their life is structured. As a matter of fact, in modern astrology(even in Western/Tropical), Sun sign is usually not the main planet looked at. Ascendant and Moon are the most important planets in classic vedic and modern tropical. Also, on an accurate Ayanamsa or correct side-reel set up, your Sun sign probably wouldn't be Libra. It would probably be Virgo(though I can't say for sure).
Also to Rmcnew, its kind of a bias to consider zonal energies as being naturall and non dependent on the actual zones and not planetary energies.
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And how does this relate to socionics ... ?
Because they theoretically shape a person or correlate to a person.
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Well, can you demonstrate this in a chart ... ? Bringing up astronomical things without showing how it correlates with socionics just distracting from the point of the thread.
Isn't one of the requirements to understanding a correlation between socionics and astrology actually to understand the subjects? How is someone supposed to talk about correlations if they don't even understand how anything works?
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I think what I mean by this is that this is a socionics thread, and that bringing in too many astrological things without showing how they compare with socionics is just using up space and discouraging people to participate in the thread.
I made a new chart based upon somethings Hitta said ... it is the same as the other one, except just with functions.
I wouldn't be giving this any credence at all, if not for the fact that a function looking for duality doesn't concern itself with whether or not a given aspect matches up with another one. No, a function seeks energy; only aspects seek each other. So although I can observe that at the aspect level this is bullshit, the functions want energy that can actually be used. They don't want waste, and if the cultural state says that a function should be used X way, then going against the culture means going up against its energy with your own. If that energy is insurmountable, then it's a waste. Better to look for ways that give you harmony of intention with maximum results, even if that means not going afoul of a crazy idea or two. But this only for purposes of energization, which, I admit, I do not completely understand.
Actually I think I'm beginning to understand it: ambitious believers in astrology may believe they are destined for great power. If power corresponds to the carrying out of ideas, then such a person must be combatted. A total waste, to be sure, but perhaps a part of the bigger picture.
wow, that looks like a lot of work. boggles my wee little mind.
so, one thing I always wondered about this sort of thing. does it mean that at any given day, all of the babies born in the world are going to be... alike? I mean, like with the same personality? does that make sense?
IEI-Fe 4w3
No ...
I probably should not have mentioned anything about astrology to begin with.
No, I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything, I just wondered. I've always wondered that.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I would say yes and no ... I think if it were the case there would be a scientific explanation ...No, I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything, I just wondered. I've always wondered that.
I think you need to clarify what you mean by "astrology". Distinguish between the alchemical aspect and the "destiny" aspect. Are you approaching this from concrete terms (like Hitta), or are you observing that astrology is in fact a predecessor to Socionics dualism?
I think that socionics is heavily based from alchemical standing, which astrology has it roots in. And I really dislike the fact that people blow in here and just talk about how astrology is flawed or talk to much about it when that is not what I am trying to show people here.
Let's be clear: as the topic creator it is YOUR JOB to explain your concept. We cannot know what you are thinking unless you explain yourself in appropriate terms.
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