Do ENFps and INFjs need a "benevolent taskmaster"?

[Slacker]

Let's try some things to work out better relations...and see if they work, why the fuck not, I'm an Fi base. Let's see if we can adjust relations and make it barely tolerable to be in the same thread together.

How about Mariella, you just not mention what type you think I am, and that won't frustrate the living daylights out of me and we can just stay on topic.

So long as you don't re-write all of Socionics around your fantasies, sure.

[Beautiful sky]

So long as you don't re-write all of Socionics around your fantasies, sure.

I'm fine with it.

[Lobo]

I think that to understand what the OP is referring to depends on understanding what he means by "taskmaster." I'm not really sure what you mean with that, Ryu.

[Park]

Maritsa is an Fe-ESFj as far as my understanding of socionics (and her personality) is concerned, but I really don't give a shit how she wants to call her self.

[ashlesha]

I think that to understand what the OP is referring to depends on understanding what he means by "taskmaster." I'm not really sure what you mean with that, Ryu.

this. i'd like to try to answer the questions presented, but i have a hard time understanding how to place them in my own life. i don't think i've ever had a relationship with anyone that played a "taskmaster" role for me.

my boyfriend does things that might sort of fall under the category of what i think you might be talking about - reminding me of things i had scheduled and helping me keep on track with everyday things - and i do see those things as showing care and interest in my life. i think other people might be kind of annoyed by this kind of helpful assistance, but i think its sweet even when i don't need it. but i don't think i can see these things of in terms of what has been spelled out in the op because that sounds more like the entire relationship revolves around that dynamic which has never been the case for me. (and maybe that's not what you were aiming for, and i do appreciate, as straytk put it, the "spirit" of your post, but its just hard to respond to without trying to reframe it, sorry.)

[UDP]

On another note, I think the overall Delta NF "allergic" reaction to even the suggestion of Ti+Se in this topic is somewhat amusing.

Yeah.

I come back a day later and there's 40+ posts. I knew there was a chance of that kind of reception, but, oh well. Maybe I'll address it again later differently.

[Minde]

Yeah.

I come back a day later and there's 40+ posts. I knew there was a chance of that kind of reception, but, oh well. Maybe I'll address it again later differently.

It seems the main problem is the definition of "taskmaster." If you could clarify a bit more the meaning you have in your head, maybe even going so far as to use different terms, I could see this still turning out to be a productive discussion.

[Simon Ssmall]

Lol, as at first I only read the initial post first I already started writing questions about what the hell is a taskmaster, especially a benevolent one . I guess what Minde said would really help things.

[glam]

this thread is awkward.

[blankblank]

Dude...infantile desiring a caregiver, all the way.

I have an ESTj in my head bossing me around. Definitely needed.

I don't have personal experience with this, so I can't help you there...

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Ok so this is a recurring theme, and it's something I'd like to talk about seriously. I'm not trying to be 'macho' or trying to belittle delta NFs here - I want to have an open dialogue about something.

(FYI I will define taskmaster in the following way: "someone who imposes hard or continuous work" is a starting point, but more so, wanting someone like that in your life and the relationship you have with that kind of person. I'm not talking about a mega jerk "boss" type person, but more like "and administrator" of some sort, that is very upfront about goals, production, regulation, etc)



My first real experience with what I'd like to describe was with a delta NF friend. She was an EII. And she was strong and independent and all that. She was well educated and professional. But, over time, she revealed that she was 'needy' in certain ways, and it had to do with addressing certain issues in her life. I remember essentially being asked to holder her hand and calm her down when she was starting a project that was difficult or stressful. And I remember her calling me on the phone more than once to talk about something chaotic in her life and figure out how to proceed forward.

You could say "weak Se and weak Te".

But furthermore, with this person and with others, with both types of NFs, there is this sort of very strong sense of desiring for a 'benevolent taskmaster', and at times almost a refusal to acknowledge it. It depends a lot on the NFs disposition of 'accepting help" from other people or their appearance of being needy.

I'm not really interested in 'arguing' about whether or not it's there, or the right semantics to address it. But I am interested in finding out// discussing what works for delta NFs.



Some questions to consider

• What kind of relationship level/closeness do you prefer for someone being a 'taskmaster' with you?
• In very close / intimate relationships, have you had someone play the role of taskmaster? If yes, how did that go? If not, would you prefer someone like that? Why / why not?
• Describe what it is like to either 'rely on' or 'appreciate' other people being a taskmaster in your life. How does it help or benefit you? How does it bother you?
• How does someone being a taskmaster affect your sense of well being?
• What are common situations that come up that you feel either like you'd prefer to have a taskmaster in your life to help deal with OR you have learned about how to deal with on your own?
• Do you associate "taskmaster" with someone having an interest in your life? Or concern for your well being? Do you feel like something is wrong or missing or you're not being helped in an important way if someone isn't like that in your life?
• Do you have any general advice "for" the taskmaster? Things you like or don't like that they do?
• What has worked for you, personally, to grow and become better at being productive? (This is just about you, and not necessarily about a taskmaster or its influence)

That's a good starting point.
More to come.

Hmm. I can think of a couple of people like this, and I admire that quality in them; they expect the best and push for it. I don't know that I would want to live with that kind of person, though, not if it extends to every area of their life. Neither would I appreciate someone who constantly dropped tasks on me or always expected me to be doing something "productive". Then again, I have a different view of what that word means (doing stuff like housework). I am most appreciative of emotional support, but I don't equate that with a "taskmaster".

[Flat Footed Frog]

Hi, i realise this thread is a bit old, but was just reading through and found it interesting and relevant to me.

I think im IEE (ENFp), and this whole thing really clicked.

So am i to understand, Delta NF's hate being told what to do by people that are particularly not their duals, especially if they feel an unfair amount of work is handed to them? Also that a dual pairing in this relationship is one where the Delta NF needs help with structure and organisation especially to do with thoughts, processes, etc? But they dislike being seen as needy or asking help from those they are not yet at a level they feel they can with (so it end up usually beiing other NF's theyll ask or very close friends etc) as they like to be seen as strong, self sufficient and independent?

i noticed this whole thread got way off topic and thought id try bring it back lol cos it was interestign to read!

[Suz]

Hi, i realise this thread is a bit old, but was just reading through and found it interesting and relevant to me.

I think im IEE (ENFp), and this whole thing really clicked.

So am i to understand, Delta NF's hate being told what to do by people that are particularly not their duals, especially if they feel an unfair amount of work is handed to them? Also that a dual pairing in this relationship is one where the Delta NF needs help with structure and organisation especially to do with thoughts, processes, etc? But they dislike being seen as needy or asking help from those they are not yet at a level they feel they can with (so it end up usually beiing other NF's theyll ask or very close friends etc) as they like to be seen as strong, self sufficient and independent?

i noticed this whole thread got way off topic and thought id try bring it back lol cos it was interestign to read!

Yeah the way I understand it is, delta NFs are more likely to be ok with "bossing around" the way a delta ST would do it (if they are being themselves), probably most receptive to the way a dual would. And if the delta NF ISN"T ok with it, the delta ST is more likely to be ok with or understanding of delta-NF style criticism. And vice versa.

I certainly incorporate Fi-related information that I keep on people, into my decisions regarding whether I will ask those people for help/advice/opinions on anything. That's for sure. However, if i am in need of help and someone graciously steps in to help me, that's a good way to make friends with me.

[UDP]

This is sort of a techinical and slightly 'elementally stereptypical' post:


At it's core, what I said (or tried to say) has to do with Te and Se, in my opinion. Appreciating someone with strong Te in the ego (particularly for an IEE it would be Te creative, which is more "you should do things this way" than "here let me help you do this" which is Si creative, and sometimes makes IEEs feel more weirded out).

Se because it has to do with the drive to get something done or get something completed. Even to the point of not being distracted, or caught up in other emotional things, or whatever. So, strong, but not valued Se. The more Se is appeared to be valued, the more stress that can put on the situation - the more it will feel like coercion, especially if the 'pressure' is undesired it essentially any way.


Another way of saying it is that someone who is 'on top of their game' in terms of getting things done and being able to maintain "the means of production" (an economics term but in this case I mean more or less how things get produced, from actual data, to how to do something, to the time to do it, to logistical remarks and awareness of its completion) - might be useful or appealing to a delta NF.


I had hoped that people would discuss how that works out, and shortcomings of it, and even what is too much vs enough vs not enough. I don't think "DELTA NFS NEED DELTA STS TO FUNCTION", that's not what this is about. I brought this up because I was interested in trying to understand the best way to relate to a delta NF in this regard and I wasn't completely confident about knowing how to do it.

[UDP]

for the record....

I appreciate the spirit of the post...

Maybe another reason I'm not 'offended' by the opening post is because I have had my own moments of weakness, and I don't see it as a problem or something to be ashamed of. The EII I mentioned in the OP, that's not how she functions all the time - she's not a helpless ninny. But it happens. Just like I've gotten super stressed out with family and other relationships because I don't understand them. I've cried more in front of one of my closest delta NF friends than she infront of me, because she's supported me through extremely unpleasant emotional situations, ones where I was totally weak and unsure of how to do anything. Does this mean I support stereotypes that LSE are emotionally shallow and can't function in that regard? No. But it happens in real life sometimes.

[NinjaTim]

From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.

[UDP]

From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.

I think that can be a very useful post for me.

And more or less the type of things I was hoping people would address, in general. Thanks.

[Suz]

From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.

Yeah thanks for mentioning this. I relate quite a bit. And for example if i were going to do something, and then someone commands me to "DO [IT]!" it makes me especially mad because now that i've been commanded, i'm not going to do it, even though i really wanted to. I feel like this sort of takes away from my own initiative, and it's a real bummer for me.

[NinjaTim]

Yeah thanks for mentioning this. I relate quite a bit. And for example if i were going to do something, and then someone commands me to "DO [IT]!" it makes me especially mad because now that i've been commanded, i'm not going to do it, even though i really wanted to. I feel like this sort of takes away from my own initiative, and it's a real bummer for me.

Yea that applies to me alot also as well, even though it may be somethin I have been dying to do for ages, as soon as someone tells me I should do it, or worse, that I 'have' to do it, then I lose all interest and feel sort of cheated out of a good experience.

[Flat Footed Frog]

From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.

That sounds like me exactly as well as what workaholics said! As soon as I feel something's an order or demand it changes my whole mind on doing that task even when I've made plans to do it. It takes the fun out of it for me, where I feel I'm no longer doing it cos I want, but because I've been told to...even if I would technically still be doing it for me. So simple suggestions work a lot better or even people saying things like " I would really like..." and then I'd be all for doing it in order to please that person and complete the task. It's all about how things are asked.

[UDP]

So if 'orders' are responded to poorly.... what is responded to 'well' ?

Requests?

[Simon Ssmall]

So if 'orders' are responded to poorly.... what is responded to 'well' ?

Requests?

Offers/Suggestions and Requests. As long as a request is a request and not an order disguised as request.

[twizzlestix]

I'm IEE and my SLI helps me do things more efficiently. Like the other week I had stuff to do in my mothers house and he advised me to bring everything I would need so I wouldn't end up making 2 trips. He knows me well I suppose and knew I would end up forgetting something as usual unless I focused on the task for more than 5 seconds. I appreciated it alot.

[twizzlestix]

So if 'orders' are responded to poorly.... what is responded to 'well' ?

Requests?

If someone criticised the way I do something and then told me how to do it I wouldn't respond well. I would eventually do it their way if I found it to truly be better but it would take longer for their message to reach me. It's better if they tell me how they do it. Or if I'm doing something ridiculously inefficiently just start laughing at me and I'll most likely laugh too and do it your way.

[Slacker]

When my husband wants something done, he usually starts doing it, and I start helping, and then when I'm on a roll, he'll either keep going or if there's something else that needs to be done, he'll say, "I'm moving on to this now, but I'll be I'll be in the other room if you need me."

[Suz]

When my husband wants something done, he usually starts doing it, and I start helping, and then when I'm on a roll, he'll either keep going or if there's something else that needs to be done, he'll say, "I'm moving on to this now, but I'll be I'll be in the other room if you need me."

that's the best approach!

[twizzlestix]

Yeah, he'll announce that we are going to clean the house and he just starts doing it and I fall in and it's done before I know it.

[blankblank]

Perhaps it's my E1 side but I invite critiques because it could help me improve. To someone who wants to critique me, I'd advise two things. First, don't use insults, or sarcasm, or a tone of disdain, because then I will think of you as a bitch instead of taking you seriously. Second, be open to changing your mind about how you think I should be, or at least be prepared for an oppositional debate from me.

[Simon Ssmall]

To someone who wants to critique me I suggest to find something more fruitfull. Because I will be a big child and will POKE YOUR FACE and ignore what you said.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

So if 'orders' are responded to poorly.... what is responded to 'well' ?

Requests?

Offers/Suggestions and Requests. As long as a request is a request and not an order disguised as request.

What he said. Pretty much anything that gives me the freedom to say "no" or "maybe later". And YES, don't act like I have a choice if you really just plan to do what you want or to tell me to do it anyway. Not having a choice pisses me off, but pretending to give me one is deceitful and insulting.

As a side note, I've noticed that my mother tends to thank me in advance for doing things, even if she hasn't asked me yet. I'd much rather hear, "I'd like for you to do _______" than "Thanks for doing ________".

[Park]

What he said. Pretty much anything that gives me the freedom to say "no" or "maybe later". And YES, don't act like I have a choice if you really just plan to do what you want or to tell me to do it anyway. Not having a choice pisses me off, but pretending to give me one is deceitful and insulting.

As a side note, I've noticed that my mother tends to thank me in advance for doing things, even if she hasn't asked me yet. I'd much rather hear, "I'd like for you to do _______" than "Thanks for doing ________".

I am the same way. And people sometimes find this rude or selfish. They'd prefer if you played along, be nice and do what they want, no questions asked. This happens especially with family members, and people who think they have some sort of "authority" over you. My mother, for instance, will always try to lay a guilt trip on me about not complying to her requests and desires. The most sickening thing in this is that she uses the mother-child relation to think/believe (and make me believe) that to comply is the only "right thing to do", or else I am being disrespectful and acting like a bad person.

[Simon Ssmall]

What he said. Pretty much anything that gives me the freedom to say "no" or "maybe later". And YES, don't act like I have a choice if you really just plan to do what you want or to tell me to do it anyway. Not having a choice pisses me off, but pretending to give me one is deceitful and insulting.

As a side note, I've noticed that my mother tends to thank me in advance for doing things, even if she hasn't asked me yet. I'd much rather hear, "I'd like for you to do _______" than "Thanks for doing ________".

My mom used to do it and I would go all whiny and bitchy about it. Maybe it is childish but it really pisses me off to no end.