Differences between LSEs and SLEs (ESTj vs. ESTp)

[717495]

The difference is that and are very different from one another.

I agree.

[EyeSeeCold]

Everyone has J/P qualities because of this and these are two functions and info from these two functions produce two different information. The difference is that and are very different from one another.

Yea I just had trouble objectifying the facts, since this is all based on recollected sensory information.

[Beautiful sky]

Yea I just had trouble objectifying the facts, since this is all based on recollected sensory information.

SLE don't care much about structuring their immediate environment whereas LSE require stability, order, and routine, so they make rules to govern these organizations of their immediate environment while SLE are messy

[Clumsy]

What are the biggest giveaways that distinguish someone as one of these two types?

What are some examples (ie. statements, questions, phrases, behaviors) of Fe-seeking vs. Fi-seeking?

[Beautiful sky]

Biggest give

SLE easy going and good mood; are much more likely to make friends with strangers; connect with people not compelled by constantly doing new things and trying new ways..."if it isn't broke don't fix it" kind of thinking.

LSE moody, huge swings between depression, excitement, anger, rage; are deliberate about making their connections and even sharing certain private things about themselves unless they trust the person first; are much more likely to try new things and look at them and "this is different, I didn't do it this way ("it's more efficient) and I can do it that way."

[Galen]

One is mean while the other is not so mean. I'll let you figure out which is which.

[Saberstorm]

Assuming it is at work:

SLEs tend to first hang back from taking on a leadership role, as their first instinct is to size up other people. They first seek to know what they are up against. They principally explore the power dynamics while trying hard to be popular. They try to exhibit an ambivalent attitude towards leadership in general, and try to disassociate themselves with whatever or whoever are the ones in charge. Then they begin to take over, using their popularity to gain a foothold in opening up lines of communication with the dudes in charge. They try to create a sense of fun, and make a effort at being candid and encouraging candid communication with subordinates.

LSEs try to show that they are creative, with a strong tendency to exhibit common sense. They easily conform to both the explicit and implicit desires of the boss, and tend to be energetic workers. Then, when in charge they try very hard to prepare for future developments as to never be caught unawares.

[Park]

Also SLEs tend to have a lot of sexual energy and are almost intimidatingly confident (from an IEI perspective, anyway). They tend to be quite forthcoming about how big their dicks are (if male), and physically intruding - touching your arm when they talk, looking you right in the eye while flirting etc. Not all of them, but definitely a lot more than LSEs...

Hmm...

maybe I should reconsider my type.

[Leader]

Im going by how others and I see myself so this could be a bit biased...plus im still young so I might change, but its basically how most of the russian descriptions say.

SLE: Usually laid back, easy going, almost lackadaisical with unexpected short bursts of enthusiasm (Fe)...eyes are leering and observant but kind of languishing. Cracks jokes in good company, and when doing so can say some pretty insulting things but you get the sense that they are not judging you (Fi POLR). Very humorous, laughs easily and often or has grin on face when trying to hold back laughter (Fe). Walk is smooth, swaying, confident, graceful like a cat. The way SLE talks is low profile, polite and respectful, listens well and usually listens more than talks, squints when trying to comprehend and takes long frequent pauses when trying to explain something. Gradiose way of carrying self, a gentleman. Usually only has three basic set of emotions - Calm and Cheerful/Gay, Calm and Depressed, or Irritated and Ill-mannered...besides that is usually emotionally guarded and doesn't talk about feelings (can come off dry, stoic and insensitive) (FI POLR) and because of this can have many acquaintance but mostly a loner with few close relationships. Irritates quickly, but is incredibly slow to anger. When angry, is intense and sadistic and unconstrained, but if problem is resolved quickly, anger doesn't last long and is quick to calm and laugh. Missing some stuff....

LSE is kind of biased too since im talking about my father.

LSE: Kind of tense, nervous quality even when idle...except when in times of comfort (like at home, with close friends, ecetra). Eyes are alert, scanning, judging, skeptical. When in good company talk is rapid and with upbeat energy, can crack jokes but it is condescending and you get the sense they are judging. Likes to tell stories in good company, when LSE laughs which isn't often it is very ugly but funny and infectious. Walk is rigid and tense and fast, almost robotic and stiff... Very judgemental (Te/Fi), likes routine and tradition (Te). More apt to like "fine" comfortable things that helps them relax (Si), in contrast to SLE who is more apt to desire intensity and experience (Se). More likely to speak up for what they believe people should be doing, authoritarian, and likes order (all Te). Preaches and gives lectures a lot on what is "right" (Te). Caregiver to close ones (Fi). Missing some stuff....

[Ver]

I will just say a few words about their flirting style, which is totally different from my perspective.
SLE Ti I kow is very intimidating. He cannot dance with girls in a non sexual way I believe. He's always had his "followers" and it was extremely easy for him to get a girl in bed. He also liked being admires all the time but it's tru for LSEs too but not in a pure sexual way. SLEs tend to be irresponsible, the can get drunk, they don't feel the need to take care of other people, they'd rather others just look at them and somehow submit to them. Yes, they tend to be in a good mood although the SLE I knew was just a big mess, he always wanted to discuss something, he never knew who he loved if he loved etc. The feeling I get with Se type, however, is that if they are really on your side they will do anything to protect you. However, in my case, good relationships with SE leading type don't last too long.

LSEs are responsible, hard-working, warm, caring. They need you to comfort them, listen to them, their job is of great importance to them. When they are interested, they don't aggressively attack you as if you were they prey. They'd rather give you their Si, make sure you are safe, fed, warm etc. And they are stable, that's great thing about ESTjs. They need somebody who carefully listens to them and comforts them, it calms them down.

They are both high achievers. The first one is more of a joker, whereas the second one is more responsible, caring and controlling the situation. SLEs just want to achieve the same by having people submit to them.

[Absurd]

Better don't say that part about SLEs out loud here, Ver.

[willekeurig]

Heh, some things said in this thread sound pretty biased (for understandable reasons). From my point of view LSEs in general are more likely to be caring and mature and SLEs boring and annoyingly pretentious, but obviously it's the other way around if you ask an IEI. I can see how Betas don't get wet over Delta stuff, but one thing I haven't managed to understand at all is this:

can say some pretty insulting things but you get the sense that they are not judging you (Fi POLR).......Very judgemental (Fi),

This really makes Fi types sound like some religious morons telling other people what they're supposed to do/feel and what not, and Fi polr more like a lottery win than weakness of any kind. And you're not the only one I've heard saying this by any means. I don't feel Fi is particularly judging compared to any other function, at least not delta Fi that is combined with Ne. Some ESIs I know can be, in a way that gets on my nerves, but I've always thought it's the weak Ne talking and they usually do calm down quite easily if you explain the possible reasons behind actions to them in a nice way. To me, Se/Ni types feel a lot more judging than any Ne/Si type. I've seen Fi egos being referred to as "emotional caregivers", the same way Si types are physical caregivers, and can relate to that a lot.. I like talking about feelings, listening to people and supporting/helping them with emotional problems and creating bonds, which feels like the opposite of judging.

Either I'm misinterpreting what people mean by judging here, or then it has to be a matter of quadra differences.. Maybe the types that have your polr in the ego just feel that way, no matter what's the function in question? At least I really do get "the sense that they are judging me" with SLEs.

[Leader]

Heh, some things said in this thread sound pretty biased (for understandable reasons). From my point of view LSEs in general are more likely to be caring and mature and SLEs boring and annoyingly pretentious, but obviously it's the other way around if you ask an IEI. I can see how Betas don't get wet over Delta stuff, but one thing I haven't managed to understand at all is this:




This really makes Fi types sound like some religious morons telling other people what they're supposed to do/feel and what not, and Fi polr more like a lottery win than weakness of any kind. And you're not the only one I've heard saying this by any means. I don't feel Fi is particularly judging compared to any other function, at least not delta Fi that is combined with Ne. Some ESIs I know can be, in a way that gets on my nerves, but I've always thought it's the weak Ne talking and they usually do calm down quite easily if you explain the possible reasons behind actions to them in a nice way. To me, Se/Ni types feel a lot more judging than any Ne/Si type. I've seen Fi egos being referred to as "emotional caregivers", the same way Si types are physical caregivers, and can relate to that a lot.. I like talking about feelings, listening to people and supporting/helping them with emotional problems and creating bonds, which feels like the opposite of judging.

Either I'm misinterpreting what people mean by judging here, or then it has to be a matter of quadra differences.. Maybe the types that have your polr in the ego just feel that way, no matter what's the function in question? At least I really do get "the sense that they are judging me" with SLEs.

....I can't really respond to any of this with clarity because its mostly intuitive for me, I just see it...I can't explain perception. I could write a big paragraph trying explaining things but it wouldn't matter. Someone will be able to explain these things better than me, im just going to sound redundant.

Also I didn't mean to say that LSE being judgemental was purely Fi, thats my fault. It's a combination of their Te and Fi.

Fi egos as emotional caregivers? Sure, but that caregiving is selective and biased. Heres one scenario... If someone were to ask you about your position on punishing someone who had supposedly done a crime, who on top of that you did not like...what would you say?

Someone who valued Fi would have already made their decision based on how that person not only made them feel, but how the rest of society feels about that person (which is where they look to first anyways...since Fi is really about moral norms and ethics). With me...with my Fi-POLR...even if I didn't like the person I would be hesitant on making a decision based on how I and everyone else was feeling. My SeTi would already step in and see the situation for what it was, and instead would respond with logic. I would ask questions about the person, about what they did, so forth...before making my decision...and none of this based on how I felt. Morals are not set in stone, they can change at a whim and are dictated by what a collective deems to be right. They are not based on reality, which I find irrational and intolerable.

Fi POLR for me is me not only feeling vulnerable expressing my feelings, but deep down I also don't care for morals or "ethics" of others because to me they are illogical, they are subjective...based on nothing but personal feelings so to me it lacks credible. But since I value Fe I adhere to these norms anyways since I want everyone to be "happy", or atleast expressing themselves in a positive way, which makes me happy.

See im being redundant...its not easy trying to explain any of this. I'll be able to explain better later on if I give it some thought, just not right now since im getting impatient.

As for the quadrant differences thing...um...don't think so. There are descriptions somewhere...I think on wikisocion, that describe how each quadra views one another... They all see delta as kind of bland. Even deltas see other deltas as boring sometimes. But at the same time people also like to exaggerate the qualities they like in others of the same quadrant. Im not saying deltas aren't fun though, im just saying each type or quadrant gives out a certain vibe that doesn't change.

Edit: Oh and I really don't think you no any SLEs...I don't agree with many of Maritsa's (who is most likely a real EII) typings but she seems to know enough about SLEs. I don't see how you would find SLE's boring and pretentious. She even said it her self that they were nice, the only reason why it never worked out between her and SLEs is because she needs routine (Te). And I agree.

[717495]

Someone who valued Fi would have already made their decision based on how that person not only made them feel, but how the rest of society feels about that person (which is where they look to first anyways...since Fi is really about moral norms and ethics).

No.

[717495]

, an introverted IE. Introversion: predominantly concerned with own thoughts and feelings rather than with external things.

Thanks to this IM element a person feels which objects attract him and which repel him. You might say that this perceptual element conveys information about objects' need or lack of need of each other and about the presence or absence of mutual or one-way needs.

Such an individual perceives information about this facet of objective reality the individual perceives as a need for certain objects that satisfy physical wishes/desires, psychological or spiritual desires, and a need for other people — in other words, a person's wishes/desires and interests that are directed toward animate and inanimate objects. This includes feelings of like and dislike, love and hatred, the desire to obtain some thing/object, etc., and greed or the absense of greed. (Aushra Augustinaviciute)

Okay, obscure representation by Aushra so far, but...

It is a feeling which apparently depreciates the object; hence it usually becomes noticeable in its negative manifestations. The existence of a positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly, as it were. Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision. From objects that can never fit in with its aim it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus. The depths of this feeling can only be divined -- they can never be clearly comprehended. It makes men silent and difficult of access; with the sensitiveness of the mimosa, it shrinks from the brutality of the object, in order to expand into the depths of the subject. It puts forward negative feeling-judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference, as a measure of self-defence...

...Their outward demeanour is harmonious and inconspicuous; they reveal a delightful repose, a sympathetic parallelism, which has no desire to affect others, either to impress, influence, or change them in any way. Should this outer side be somewhat emphasized, a suspicion of neglectfulness and coldness may easily obtrude itself, which not seldom increases to a real indifference for the comfort and well-being of others. One distinctly feels the movement of feeling away from the object. (Carl Jung)


Point is: rarely do I see types concern themselves with 'ethical norms' nor does it make sense given the term 'introverted ethics.' I think it's human nature to assume a sort of normalness among people with similar values, but nowhere is it strictly due to one IE, as I see all types do this, however valuers seem much more independent, or rather detached, in their judgments and feelings.

[Leader]

Hmm....okay.

[717495]

Also I'm fond of Jung's writings to describe ego and even quadra IM. My own thought process is done extremely well for being his own study and observation, probably rather than his own direct identification. Anyway, I think it adheres to all the types, ie. I think the bit on vs very much applies to a difference between LSEs and SLEs, as much as does vs . Gear up, as they say.

[willekeurig]

Fi egos as emotional caregivers? Sure, but that caregiving is selective and biased. Heres one scenario... If someone were to ask you about your position on punishing someone who had supposedly done a crime, who on top of that you did not like...what would you say?

Someone who valued Fi would have already made their decision based on how that person not only made them feel, but how the rest of society feels about that person (which is where they look to first anyways...since Fi is really about moral norms and ethics). With me...with my Fi-POLR...even if I didn't like the person I would be hesitant on making a decision based on how I and everyone else was feeling. My SeTi would already step in and see the situation for what it was, and instead would respond with logic. I would ask questions about the person, about what they did, so forth...before making my decision...and none of this based on how I felt.

I am a Fi dom, but I agree with a lot what you're saying. I don't think "an eye for an eye" is a good or civilized form of punishment and judgements should be based on logic rather than feelings. Revenge doesn't help anyone, but only causes more suffering and makes the society harsher. Deterrence has also been proven false by many studies. It's more effective to offer help to the people who commit crimes (e.g if they have a drug problem or financial issues or psychological problems that causes them to commit crimes) or give the criminals a way to make up for what they've done. If someone had done something horrible to me or my loved ones I'd be biased, yes, I'd probably want to tear off their face, but I believe that so would pretty much everyone else. I also think that in such situation it wouldn't be very fair if I got to be the one to decide their punishment. I don't know if I'd be strong enough not to abuse that kind of power had it been given to me (and delegate the task someone else), but luckily I don't have to. We already have the judicial system for that.

Also, don't think Fi types base my ethics on how the society feels about something.. there are plenty of conflicting groups/opinions in the society anyways, so that wouldn't even be possible. I'm for many things our current law/public opinion is against (gay marriage, legalization of drugs..) but that doesn't make me any less EII.

Actually, I've been under the impression that most SLEs are of the type that'd be likely to take the law into their own hands if someone had attacked them or done something to a person they loved. I've heard IEIs women talk about how their SLE boyfriends want to beat up other men who have treated them badly or something. Which I think would be irrational and feeling based if something. I'm happy to hear this is not the case with all of them tho. Lol, maybe this is all more intelligence/value-related than type related after all. Stupid people are often the loudest with their opinions, and I haven't really bothered to get to know many SLEs closely so it's quite possible that I'm basing the negative stereotypes on a small but visible sample of the least charming SLEs. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.

Morals are not set in stone, they can change at a whim and are dictated by what a collective deems to be right. They are not based on reality, which I find irrational and intolerable.

yess

As for the quadrant differences thing...um...don't think so. There are descriptions somewhere...I think on wikisocion, that describe how each quadra views one another... They all see delta as kind of bland. Even deltas see other deltas as boring sometimes. But at the same time people also like to exaggerate the qualities they like in others of the same quadrant. Im not saying deltas aren't fun though, im just saying each type or quadrant gives out a certain vibe that doesn't change.....Oh and I really don't think you no any SLEs... I don't see how you would find SLE's boring and pretentious

Yeah that's all very true. I'm one of the deltas that feels most other deltas are boring (especially rationals ), but then again I tend to find people boring no matter which quadra they belong to. Also, the people that most inspire me are deltas, so in comparison to other quadras my subjective feeling is that they're less boring than others. I still see how delta is more boring in the sense of being maybe less action oriented/cheerful than other quadras. SLEs are boring in a very different way than let's say EIIs. I feel like they lack (Ne)perspective and don't have much meaning behind their actions, also their interests are usually very far from my own so no much to do or talk about with them. Am I making any sense?

[mu4]

I am a Fi dom, but I agree with a lot what you're saying. I don't think "an eye for an eye" is a good or civilized form of punishment and judgements should be based on logic rather than feelings. Revenge doesn't help anyone, but only causes more suffering and makes the society harsher. Deterrence has also been proven false by many studies. It's more effective to offer help to the people who commit crimes (e.g if they have a drug problem or financial issues or psychological problems that causes them to commit crimes) or give the criminals a way to make up for what they've done. If someone had done something horrible to me or my loved ones I'd be biased, yes, I'd probably want to tear off their face, but I believe that so would pretty much everyone else. I also think that in such situation it wouldn't be very fair if I got to be the one to decide their punishment. I don't know if I'd be strong enough not to abuse that kind of power had it been given to me (and delegate the task someone else), but luckily I don't have to. We already have the judicial system for that.

I tend to think the only reason that I don't just destroy people that have harmed me is two-fold.
1. Consequences, legal and extra legal
2. Pain in the ass, lots of work to actually get revenge, killing, bodies, hands dirty
3. I don't really want to hurt people
4. I think the world's prettier with justice

And for these reasons, I think justices is a good idea, since it provides a process which is a lot less problems then never ending circle of vengeance, or having to end a entire family line over some sort of blood feud. The judicial systems provides third party dispute reconciliation which help prevent this sort of cycle violence. This doesn't always work, but in many case it's quite effective. There are of course other benefits as well as problems.

Actually, I've been under the impression that most SLEs are of the type that'd be likely to take the law into their own hands if someone had attacked them or done something to a person they loved. I've heard IEIs women talk about how their SLE boyfriends want to beat up other men who have treated them badly or something. Which I think would be irrational and feeling based if something. I'm happy to hear this is not the case with all of them tho. Lol, maybe this is all more intelligence/value-related than type related after all. Stupid people are often the loudest with their opinions, and I haven't really bothered to get to know many SLEs closely so it's quite possible that I'm basing the negative stereotypes on a small but visible sample of the least charming SLEs. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.

I'm not sure if SLE's do this for vengeance, they mostly want to show off or acquire submission from the other men. I think revenge is always a secondary motive to the attention they seek. Consequently, when the situations become out of their control, they employ legal means. Generally I've found LSE's to employ legal threats and means initially and when these threats fail or do not succeed, they can take extra legal means, often very personal revenge. Often law is used to attain personal vengeance or to cause a person suffering. I think Kris Humphrey is LSE(maybe SLI) and I think he's using the legal process as a personal thing against Kim Kardashian.

yess

Having morals fluid and dictated by whim may be the way to go, and not turned static and rational. The desire to form static and concrete systems of morality has always been a dangerous desire, and only the advancement of science, enlightenment has been able to overcome that desire. It is not when morals are arbitrary and not backed by authority that it is dangerous but morals which are socially unassailable and backed by force.

[Beautiful sky]

Im going by how others and I see myself so this could be a bit biased...plus im still young so I might change, but its basically how most of the russian descriptions say.

SLE: Usually laid back, easy going, almost lackadaisical with unexpected short bursts of enthusiasm (Fe)...eyes are leering and observant but kind of languishing. Cracks jokes in good company, and when doing so can say some pretty insulting things but you get the sense that they are not judging you (Fi POLR). Very humorous, laughs easily and often or has grin on face when trying to hold back laughter (Fe). Walk is smooth, swaying, confident, graceful like a cat. The way SLE talks is low profile, polite and respectful, listens well and usually listens more than talks, squints when trying to comprehend and takes long frequent pauses when trying to explain something. Gradiose way of carrying self, a gentleman. Usually only has three basic set of emotions - Calm and Cheerful/Gay, Calm and Depressed, or Irritated and Ill-mannered...besides that is usually emotionally guarded and doesn't talk about feelings (can come off dry, stoic and insensitive) (FI POLR) and because of this can have many acquaintance but mostly a loner with few close relationships. Irritates quickly, but is incredibly slow to anger. When angry, is intense and sadistic and unconstrained, but if problem is resolved quickly, anger doesn't last long and is quick to calm and laugh. Missing some stuff....

LSE is kind of biased too since im talking about my father.

LSE: Kind of tense, nervous quality even when idle...except when in times of comfort (like at home, with close friends, ecetra). Eyes are alert, scanning, judging, skeptical. When in good company talk is rapid and with upbeat energy, can crack jokes but it is condescending and you get the sense they are judging. Likes to tell stories in good company, when LSE laughs which isn't often it is very ugly but funny and infectious. Walk is rigid and tense and fast, almost robotic and stiff... Very judgemental (Fi), likes routine and tradition (Te). More apt to like "fine" comfortable things that helps them relax (Si), in contrast to SLE who is more apt to desire intensity and experience (Se). More likely to speak up for what they believe people should be doing, authoritarian, and likes order (all Te). Preaches and gives lectures a lot on what is "right" (Te). Caregiver to close ones (Fi). Missing some stuff....

"What she's doing is not right; I don't have to like it."

You made two exceptional posts. Thank you.

[Beautiful sky]

This really makes Fi types sound like some religious morons telling other people what they're supposed to do/feel and what not,

We do; and FiNe types say what people should do and FiSe types tell people what to do. I give advice I don't give orders. I don't say "you have to do this." not even to a seven year old; I suggest what I think would be the best approach, you can't give advice or orders without making a judgement, weighing options and saying I've looked at these and I think this would be the best option for you.

and Fi polr more like a lottery win than weakness of any kind.

Every type has a weakness

And you're not the only one I've heard saying this by any means. I don't feel Fi is particularly judging compared to any other function, at least not delta Fi that is combined with Ne.

Oh, I've very judgmental in terms of grand scheme of humanity rather than individuals, but I will call someone on it when their behavior does not match my moral idealism.

Some ESIs I know can be, in a way that gets on my nerves, but I've always thought it's the weak Ne talking and they usually do calm down quite easily if you explain the possible reasons behind actions to them in a nice way. To me, Se/Ni types feel a lot more judging than any Ne/Si type. I've seen Fi egos being referred to as "emotional caregivers", the same way Si types are physical caregivers, and can relate to that a lot.

I am a physical care giver because Si is my mobilizing function. My type of care giving is making sure people are well fed, rested and their state of mind is strong. I maintain a very very comfortable home and make sure that our diet is healthy; helping people kick habits like mentoring, encouraging them to stop biting their nails, etc.

I like talking about feelings, listening to people and supporting/helping them with emotional problems and creating bonds, which feels like the opposite of judging.

No, that's common to all human beings regardless of type.

Either I'm misinterpreting what people mean by judging here, or then it has to be a matter of quadra differences.. Maybe the types that have your polr in the ego just feel that way, no matter what's the function in question? At least I really do get "the sense that they are judging me" with SLEs.

You can see from my response that you probably don't understand Fi.

[Gilly]

No free lunch

Learn to type

[Beautiful sky]

I am a Fi dom, but I agree with a lot what you're saying. I don't think "an eye for an eye" is a good or civilized form of punishment and judgements should be based on logic rather than feelings.
Revenge doesn't help anyone, but only causes more suffering and makes the society harsher.

Not act of revenge, but LSE are very capable of pushing people away, LSE will try to change the nature of the relationship.

Deterrence has also been proven false by many studies. It's more effective to offer help to the people who commit crimes (e.g if they have a drug problem or financial issues or psychological problems that causes them to commit crimes) or give the criminals a way to make up for what they've done. If someone had done something horrible to me or my loved ones I'd be biased, yes, I'd probably want to tear off their face, but I believe that so would pretty much everyone else.

You and I differ greatly here, because Fi base, being a judging type, and with Ne, being a type to consider many possibilities, has a way of rationalizing things, people's hyaenas crimes away by saying things like "well, what if he had a terrible day" "I feel so bad for this person, he may have had a terrible life." And, all this empathy, seeing it from the other person's point of view, rather than what realists do which is to say "this person mugged me and court of law is there to take care of this." I am much more reluctant to accuse people and much more likely to let them go scott free.

I also think that in such situation it wouldn't be very fair if I got to be the one to decide their punishment.

I'm too empathetic; I'd be reluctant to punish anyone and I would not like to be in a position to cause someone's life change in a permanent way like being the person to decide on their punishment. In here lies my Se PoLR; inability to force my will.

I don't know if I'd be strong enough not to abuse that kind of power had it been given to me (and delegate the task someone else), but luckily I don't have to. We already have the judicial system for that.

My type would know that I would not abuse that power; we are reluctant to take on that role in the first place and you by you saying the above seem like you have no trouble in using meaning that you like subservience and obedience from others and if you were in a position of authority you would be likely to abuse that power, otherwise why would you say what you said; and here again lies my Se PoLR which is a stark contrast from you.

Agarina, I type you Se base and SEE.

Also, don't think Fi types base my ethics on how the society feels about something.. there are plenty of conflicting groups/opinions in the society anyways, so that wouldn't even be possible. I'm for many things our current law/public opinion is against (gay marriage, legalization of drugs..) but that doesn't make me any less EII.

I base my ethics by my feelings; if I based it on society, I would be undercutting everyone at every chance I got.

Yeah that's all very true. I'm one of the deltas that feels most other deltas are boring (especially rationals ), but then again I tend to find people boring no matter which quadra they belong to.

Contradictory statement in consistency, Ti PoLR Anyone who needs the level of stimulation you do may find everything boring; another contrast, I'm just content and happy as a clam in comfortable surroundings with a book and no one has to stimulate me to keep me interested.

[Beautiful sky]

Agee, personal question,

I've noticed that ESTps married to ESFjs, a benefit relations, have ESTj kids; now, in my genetic estimation, I'm guessing that since your father is ESTj and you're ESTp that your mom must be an ESFj...am I close? or she could be a perceptual too but I'm thinking something extravert and sensory.

[DirectorAbbie]

The SLEs want to conquer the world. It's a dead giveaway.

[lemontrees]

I've had plenty of female friends that are both, although my relationships with SLE's tend to be more long-lasting and mutually dependent.

SLE's can give off that "wanting to conquer the world" feeling, it's true. And they sometimes really like status. Equally, LSE's can give off the "I'm better than everyone" and/or "I want to work nonstop and make a lot of money" feeling. Both types can be scary when at an extreme. (I think I get the "I'm better than everyone" feeling from the strong Te--to me, as an Fe-creative, if someone is manipulating the situation that deliberately to reach their goals, they must think they deserve the best in the world...(?) )

Both can be pretty judgmental when they don't understand what someone is about. I think that's why they need their duals, the NF's, to help them out.

ps--SLE's can be so wonderful. Yes, there are the stereotypically boorish ones. But they can be quite elegant/cerebral/have a kind of Se-base Fe-seeking kind of internal morality. And although they have the need to "conquer" tasks, they can also have a real belief in a passion for the thing itself. They are almost never cold.

[Leader]

I am a Fi dom, but I agree with a lot what you're saying. I don't think "an eye for an eye" is a good or civilized form of punishment and judgements should be based on logic rather than feelings. Revenge doesn't help anyone, but only causes more suffering and makes the society harsher. Deterrence has also been proven false by many studies. It's more effective to offer help to the people who commit crimes (e.g if they have a drug problem or financial issues or psychological problems that causes them to commit crimes) or give the criminals a way to make up for what they've done. If someone had done something horrible to me or my loved ones I'd be biased, yes, I'd probably want to tear off their face, but I believe that so would pretty much everyone else. I also think that in such situation it wouldn't be very fair if I got to be the one to decide their punishment. I don't know if I'd be strong enough not to abuse that kind of power had it been given to me (and delegate the task someone else), but luckily I don't have to. We already have the judicial system for that.

Also, don't think Fi types base my ethics on how the society feels about something.. there are plenty of conflicting groups/opinions in the society anyways, so that wouldn't even be possible. I'm for many things our current law/public opinion is against (gay marriage, legalization of drugs..) but that doesn't make me any less EII.

Actually, I've been under the impression that most SLEs are of the type that'd be likely to take the law into their own hands if someone had attacked them or done something to a person they loved. I've heard IEIs women talk about how their SLE boyfriends want to beat up other men who have treated them badly or something. Which I think would be irrational and feeling based if something. I'm happy to hear this is not the case with all of them tho. Lol, maybe this is all more intelligence/value-related than type related after all. Stupid people are often the loudest with their opinions, and I haven't really bothered to get to know many SLEs closely so it's quite possible that I'm basing the negative stereotypes on a small but visible sample of the least charming SLEs. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.



yess



Yeah that's all very true. I'm one of the deltas that feels most other deltas are boring (especially rationals ), but then again I tend to find people boring no matter which quadra they belong to. Also, the people that most inspire me are deltas, so in comparison to other quadras my subjective feeling is that they're less boring than others. I still see how delta is more boring in the sense of being maybe less action oriented/cheerful than other quadras. SLEs are boring in a very different way than let's say EIIs. I feel like they lack (Ne)perspective and don't have much meaning behind their actions, also their interests are usually very far from my own so no much to do or talk about with them. Am I making any sense?

Lol I guess you and polikujm have shown me that im jumping to certain conclusions about Fi...My Ti is pretty judgmental too.

And yeah I understand what you mean.

[Leader]

Agee, personal question,

I've noticed that ESTps married to ESFjs, a benefit relations, have ESTj kids; now, in my genetic estimation, I'm guessing that since your father is ESTj and you're ESTp that your mom must be an ESFj...am I close? or she could be a perceptual too but I'm thinking something extravert and sensory.

...Umm...sorry I can't really answer that question. My mother is too hard to type, as far as I know she is definitely ethical though.

[717495]

The SLEs want to conquer the world. It's a dead giveaway.

They're giving them away?

[Pookie]

LSE's have a dry manner of delivery, and SLE's are normally very enthusiastic.

Also LSE's speak in the form of facts, and SLE's in the form of observations.

[Beautiful sky]

LSE "That's how they do things." "That's how I do things." "That's how things should get done." "This isn't going to take long, is it?" "I approve." "Matt, approves of that [disapproves of that]" "These don't seem like they are a strong fit for me." "I'm not surprised." "That doesn't shock me." "You know, that doesn't surprise me."
SLE "He stood in front of all these people and he had strong presence." in jest, "I like to touch and feel." I gotta come up with better quotes for SLE

[Anna1921]

LSE "That's how they do things." "That's how I do things." "That's how things should get done." "This isn't going to take long, is it?" "I approve." "Matt, approves of that [disapproves of that]" "These don't seem like they are a strong fit for me." "I'm not surprised." "That doesn't shock me." "You know, that doesn't surprise me."
SLE "He stood in front of all these people and he had strong presence." in jest, "I like to touch and feel." I gotta come up with better quotes for SLE

Couldn't many, many types say the things in BOTH of those lists?

[Creepy-pokeball]

Couldn't many, many types say the things in BOTH of those lists?

Yes, especially since both types tend to dominate Etype 8.

[Beautiful sky]

I think so.

ESTps are not much into doing what's "right" because of their PoLR, and do what's "fun" rather than what's "right" is more an irrational trait.

God, when faced with sexual desires, an ESTj will quickly do what's fun over what's right. Look at Arnold's affairs.

[Beautiful sky]

@DJ Arendee

Amazing video!!! Thank you so much...

I have a question. Which one of the two is an iconoclast and why? Could both be it? And, if yes, in what ways?

i·con·o·clast
īˈkänəˌklast/
noun
1.
a person who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions.
synonyms: critic, skeptic; More
2.
a destroyer of images used in religious worship, in particular.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fQEDeqi3oQ

[Azure Flame]

@DJ Arendee

Amazing video!!! Thank you so much...

I have a question. Which one of the two is an iconoclast and why? Could both be it? And, if yes, in what ways?

i·con·o·clast
īˈkänəˌklast/
noun
1.
a person who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions.
synonyms: critic, skeptic; More
2.
a destroyer of images used in religious worship, in particular.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fQEDeqi3oQ

that sounds like an intuitive thing, like ILE or ILI. even EII and IEE.

[ashlesha]

5w6w5

[bolong]

It took me a while to find this thread, glad I did and now I need to bump it.

I need to know if a young woman I will be working with (as her supervisor) is LSE or SLE. I've judged wrongly about this in the past, the problem is that I get along with LSEs very well in the beginning. Then it turns out we are not at all on the same page (they are my conflictor) and the whole project is affected, delayed etc.

I am mostly communicating with this woman on video calls, so I can't really pick up her body language. In the past, I haven't realized that someone is my dual until quite a bit of time has passed, and I suddenly notice that we have this ease of communication and understanding without conscious effort. But I don't have that much time here..

She is very factual, not expressive, quite authoritative. Really into dogs. Gets to the point quickly, is adventurous. TBH I think these things could be describing either one though, so I need a little help!

[Adam Strange]

An SLE wants to be loved, an LSE wants to be respected.

From your brief description, my guess is that she is LSE.

[Persephone]

Because loving dogs makes people LSE.. Duh