The 16 Purposes

[tcaudilllg]

I have noticed that what I see the world as most lacking in is sympathy. I see this belief as an effect of my IEI EM type, whose producing ego function is beta Fe (the function of emotional awareness). I spend a great deal of time imagining how people may feel, particularly those who are estranged from society (Sephiroth was crack to me as a teen).

I've heard it said by one of the lead figures at Nuremberg, "evil is the inability to sympathize."

I believe the creating EM function determines one's vision of a perfect world, a place saturated in positive observations by it.

So framing your vision of a better world -- the starting point for it -- in terms of a quadra function is one way to diagnose your EM type.

[EyeSeeCold]

I believe the creating EM function determines one's vision of a perfect world, a place saturated in positive observations by it.

So framing your vision of a better world -- the starting point for it -- in terms of a quadra function is one way to diagnose your EM type.

I'm not sure if this is definitive. Aren't types settled on fulfillment of their Hidden Agenda to be the start of an actualized life? It seems like everyone's EM type then would be the HA, DS or Base.

[tcaudilllg]

I'm not sure if this is definitive. Aren't types settled on fulfillment of their Hidden Agenda to be the start of an actualized life? It seems like everyone's EM type then would be the HA, DS or Base.

The hidden agenda is a goal, but it is not in itself a problem. The dearth of negative creating EM content is a primary issue in one's life, particularly because one uses the road to improving its state as a framework by which to assess the proper state of the EM base. In my case, that means that a truly ethical settlement is that which is most effectively sympathetic to all involved parties. This is why people must be viewed deeply, and the effects of punishments against them carefully measured. As a person who is willing to define my own ethical code,I need as much sympathy as possible to the extent that it is not in agreement with others' codes as such. So it is in my interest be as sympathetic to others as possible, vis a vis the Golden Rule. The more I exalt and practice the Golden Rule, the more I can rely upon it.

[tcaudilllg]

I'm not sure if this is definitive. Aren't types settled on fulfillment of their Hidden Agenda to be the start of an actualized life? It seems like everyone's EM type then would be the HA, DS or Base.

So... what is the world lacking in your eyes? What is the base which must be changed before all else can be fixed?

[Sir Knight]

So... what is the world lacking in your eyes? What is the base which must be changed before all else can be fixed?

If I may answer, I'd say that I feel that life lacks any real sense of purpose. It seems as though the only goal one can follow is obtain a station of some stability, enjoy whatever comforts one can in order to stay happy, and then die as gracefully and serenely as possible. Life is short and finite and whatever struggle one gives to improve one's rapidly depleting span will be rendered ultimately meaningless by one's death.

I mean, going to college, studying your ass off for years to get a degree, getting fitted for a nice suit you only wear to interviews, boning up your resume, competing with hundreds to find a decent job, balancing your budget, living within your means, going through a bunch of bad relationships, settling for one you can live with, raising a couple kids, feeling our body start to deteroriate, looking with nostalgia on things that used to give you pleasure...


...that seems like a hell of a lot of wasted effort. One can invent one's own reasons for wanting to stay alive beyond mere base survival instinct, but ultimately what I feel this world is missing is a grand, broad, reason to care. A reason so all-encompassing and so identifiable that no one would ever have to come up with a reason to keep living, it would just be taken for granted.

[crazedrat]

The main problem I see in the world itself is that people dont think about what they're doing. Seems to fit with my EM

[EyeSeeCold]

The hidden agenda is a goal, but it is not in itself a problem. The dearth of negative creating EM content is a primary issue in one's life, particularly because one uses the road to improving its state as a framework by which to assess the proper state of the EM base. In my case, that means that a truly ethical settlement is that which is most effectively sympathetic to all involved parties. This is why people must be viewed deeply, and the effects of punishments against them carefully measured. As a person who is willing to define my own ethical code,I need as much sympathy as possible to the extent that it is not in agreement with others' codes as such. So it is in my interest be as sympathetic to others as possible, vis a vis the Golden Rule. The more I exalt and practice the Golden Rule, the more I can rely upon it.

Sounds like alchemy.

So... what is the world lacking in your eyes?

Warmth?

What is the base which must be changed before all else can be fixed?

The whole world, huh?

Hard to say.

I guess people need to seriously give up their comfortable lifestyles so we can make some change in the world. ?

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't think I did it right.

[crazedrat]

sounds like Te Si

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You're on the right track tcaud.

I don't think it's just sympathy, though.

I think the world doesn't have much of a heart anymore, period really.

And that is really a lot bigger than sympathy or even empathy. It's passion, and intensity and also anger and LUST and EXCITEMENT. it's pure raw feelings basically. Everything that the heart generates, the world lacks, because like it said in the latest Buffy comic 'the world has lost its heart.'

People are too jaded to even bully anymore. Because bullying and mean-ness comes from a heart. Now it's just this fake un-heart-y thing. I don't like it all. It's a lot bigger than sympathy, so just don't argue it from that angle, or they will just call you emo.

Like while shopping at the store the other day, I was talking to the clerk about something and it's like, could you be any faker? I know some people will argue 'well she's not there to have a heart to heart with you, you ******, she's just there to do her job, but there's no good reason why those things can't be mixed. It's just off-putting and weird. And fake. Like this mask they're hiding behind...I wanted to punch her in the face. I mean why even have a job as a human if you're gonna act like a robot. Weird creepy bitch.

Midwest ppl repress their emotions. They probably think all emotions are 'weaknesses' even the powerful ones. How retarded.

[tcaudilllg]

I won't lie dude: I am totally emo.

Seems like there is need for a list of all sixteen "deficits", as it were.

Empathy and sympathy are different. Sympathy is modulation of one's own outlook to respect another person's emotional welfare. Empathy is the understanding of an emotion -- paying enough attention to try to work out why it is what it is.

But I agree there isn't emotion enough. Or, it's being channeled into unproductive, unfulfilling venues.

[Creepy-male]

When I have my theory up in running, I'm going to run it by you tcaud to see what you think, hopefully some of these issues could be addressed... part of it is inspecting the relations between functions, and the transformations or tensors to shift between these functions with certain rules... for example Ti -> Fi is not allowed... but Ti -> Fe -> Fi is, to justify these "selection" rules I'm going down to the jungian level and the original socionics information metabolism justifications.

You know that Ti and Fi are incompatible but the idea has occurred to me that in a sense Ti is linked to Fe and Ne to Si, which provides a connection between the ego and super-id. In a sense, the base and creative functions are "bait" to put out to receive the dual seeking and hidden agenda functions... meaning an LII utilizes TiNe as a way of receiving FeSi in a sense. This is one form of connection with a characteristic "transformation" to it.

Fe-Fi, Si-Se also has a characteristic "transformation" to it.

Thus while Ti and Fi are incompatible they link through one possible pathway. Ti -> Fe -> Fi. But also may link through Ti -> Te -> Fi. Each of these channels are analyzed in the model versus the static representation to understand the flow of information within the individual and the flow of information between individuals.

Maybe this sort of dynamic model of the functions will pose some use to you.

[tcaudilllg]

When I have my theory up in running, I'm going to run it by you tcaud to see what you think, hopefully some of these issues could be addressed... part of it is inspecting the relations between functions, and the transformations or tensors to shift between these functions with certain rules... for example Ti -> Fi is not allowed... but Ti -> Fe -> Fi is, to justify these "selection" rules I'm going down to the jungian level and the original socionics information metabolism justifications.

You know that Ti and Fi are incompatible but the idea has occurred to me that in a sense Ti is linked to Fe and Ne to Si, which provides a connection between the ego and super-id. In a sense, the base and creative functions are "bait" to put out to receive the dual seeking and hidden agenda functions... meaning an LII utilizes TiNe as a way of receiving FeSi in a sense. This is one form of connection with a characteristic "transformation" to it.

Fe-Fi, Si-Se also has a characteristic "transformation" to it.

Thus while Ti and Fi are incompatible they link through one possible pathway. Ti -> Fe -> Fi. But also may link through Ti -> Te -> Fi. Each of these channels are analyzed in the model versus the static representation to understand the flow of information within the individual and the flow of information between individuals.

Maybe this sort of dynamic model of the functions will pose some use to you.

That sounds like the ideas Gulenko presents in his paper "Structure of the Socionics Model" (minus the contrary function aspects, but we've known about those for a while). There can be strong resistance to using Ti and Te in conjunction. (interesting note, I believe Augusta was the first to explore that idea, in her article "More reasons to use both types of thinking", although Jung talks about Ti and Te being "parallel" in his type essay, I believe).

However, the exact frame of the relationship is a little difficult to understand, so you may be on to something.

Also remember that the rules only work for functions in the same system. Any IM function can pair with any EM function, although the EM functions are of course governed by the same rules as the IM functions, so you can't change the pairings at random without losing your train of thought.

[Ave]

Actually, what I see most lacking in the world right now is emotional and social responsiveness. It hasnt always been this way, and probably always wont be, but I see very little Fe in society and it pisses me off. It even sent an ENTp friend of mine to the mental hospital.

[Creepy-male]

That sounds like the ideas Gulenko presents in his paper "Structure of the Socionics Model" (minus the contrary function aspects, but we've known about those for a while). There can be strong resistance to using Ti and Te in conjunction. (interesting note, I believe Augusta was the first to explore that idea, in her article "More reasons to use both types of thinking", although Jung talks about Ti and Te being "parallel" in his type essay, I believe).

However, the exact frame of the relationship is a little difficult to understand, so you may be on to something.

Also remember that the rules only work for functions in the same system. Any IM function can pair with any EM function, although the EM functions are of course governed by the same rules as the IM functions, so you can't change the pairings at random without losing your train of thought.

Excuse my illiteracy, but EM and IM functions... please kindly explain the difference and what IM/EM stand for...

Also if you have the links to both papers....

[Pookie]

i think that Empathy is far more important than Sympathy.

Sympathy is done to make yourself feel better. Empathy is done to take the pain another feels, and to attempt to share the load for their sake.

[tcaudilllg]

Empathy is inert; sympathy prods to action.

[Ave]

Semantics!

[Beautiful sky]

I like this thread...I like the empathy/sympathy part.

[silke]

Yes I'm sure, because I see the same thing in George W. Bush, who is my EM identical.

And I do not speak of "seeking" sympathy, but of providing it.

In original post you stated that you see the world is "lacking in sympathy" which is the kind of judgement Fi would make rather than Fe of the IEI (I was wrong in my other posts too as this isn't Fe).

Providing empathy would be Fe and LIIs will attempt to do on an occasion when they are acting out of their super-ID. What I don't understand is why do you consider this to be a consequence of your EM type rather than your socionics type? How do you make this distinction?