Denying someone use of the restroom

[The Exception]

At the LIIbrary where I work, there are two restrooms. One near the entrance and one in the childrens area. The supervisor decided to make the one in the childrens area locked and for use only by children. The rationale is that children can't hold it in as well and are more likely to have bathroom emergencies so its good to have a restroom very close by.

I had an adult ask me if he could get the key for the children's restroom. He said it was an emergency that he felt like he absolutely couldn't hold it in any longer. So I did what I thought was the common sense thing to do. I let him use it. Sometimes exceptions have to be made.

Apparently the supervisor did not agree with my logic and she gave me a several minute long lecture on how adults should never be allowed to use the children's restroom and how adults should not have bathroom emergencies.

So I brought up the point about what if an adult suddenly felt like he or she had to throw up? I think that would qualify for a true emergency. But the supervisor just acted like I was completely stupid for even bringning that up. She just said, in all ten of my years here, I have never had that happen. Sometimes even if a possibility is improbable doesn't mean it isn't worth considering.

Another time I let a physically challenged old woman use the children's restroom. She walked slowly with a cane and it was obvious she wasn't very physically mobile. I work at a fairly large library and I wasn't going to make her walk all the way to adult restroom. Luckily the supervisor didn't see that instance.


I bring this up because I'm interested in this from a socionics perspective. I think the bolded part is particularly indicative of alpha NT thinking.

[tereg]

I'd say the bolded part speaks more toward an way of thinking. I certainly identify with doing that.

[Aiss]

I think your supervisor might be simply too stupid to type. Who invents such restrictions for no real reason?

[krieger]

she sounds like a rather typical ISFj.

[Slacker]

Yes, this is an Ne thing.

[Beautiful sky]

That would be an Ne thing; also, Ne role thing as well; it's less likely to be an Alpha and a Beta thing though and much more a Gamma and Delta thing instead.

[Slacker]

No, Gammas don't generally display Ne that strong. Maybe a Gamma Ni type but not an SF. Stop trying to push her into a box where she doesn't fit.

[Suz]

At the LIIbrary where I work, there are two restrooms. One near the entrance and one in the childrens area. The supervisor decided to make the one in the childrens area locked and for use only by children. The rationale is that children can't hold it in as well and are more likely to have bathroom emergencies so its good to have a restroom very close by.

I had an adult ask me if he could get the key for the children's restroom. He said it was an emergency that he felt like he absolutely couldn't hold it in any longer. So I did what I thought was the common sense thing to do. I let him use it. Sometimes exceptions have to be made.

Apparently the supervisor did not agree with my logic and she gave me a several minute long lecture on how adults should never be allowed to use the children's restroom and how adults should not have bathroom emergencies.

So I brought up the point about what if an adult suddenly felt like he or she had to throw up? I think that would qualify for a true emergency. But the supervisor just acted like I was completely stupid for even bringning that up. She just said, in all ten of my years here, I have never had that happen. Sometimes even if a possibility is improbable doesn't mean it isn't worth considering.

Another time I let a physically challenged old woman use the children's restroom. She walked slowly with a cane and it was obvious she wasn't very physically mobile. I work at a fairly large library and I wasn't going to make her walk all the way to adult restroom. Luckily the supervisor didn't see that instance.


I bring this up because I'm interested in this from a socionics perspective. I think the bolded part is particularly indicative of alpha NT thinking.

I'd say it's Ne-thinking in general, delta NFs included as well. I totally agree with the bold and feel that way often as well. I would also have let these people use the childrens' bathroom.

I mean, adult bathroom emergencies aren't just about vomiting. Someone can have an incontinence problem (and they dont have to be elderly -- look @ Paula Abdul). It could be someone with a heart problem on a diuretic and if they have to trek too far, they get out of breath or have chest pain, and they need to pee a LOT. Someone can feel a bad urge for diarrhea and if they have to walk across the vast library they might poop their pants. Whatever. If there isn't a line of kids waiting for the kids bathroom, I dont see a problem with lending the key out to a desperate adult.

[Exodus]

This is definitely an Si/Se conflict. Makes sense for the other person to be Beta ST.

[jughead]

Power tripping stupidity. What cruelty for kids that can't hold their bowels to have to ask for a key in emergencies. "Dumb rules are meant to be broken. "
I think in this case Fi polr in showing in Mountain Dews post and Fe polr in Parksters. Sounds like a rational type who made the rules either way. As an IEI, working in these types environments tends to drive me mad and eventually break these rules if I don't outright voice it. And its not always stupid people but people power tripping against each other. And yes sometimes (most) you'll get fired but hopefully you can start a union or some shit as your true calling or not work at a soul crushing company.

[Park]

And yes sometimes (most) you'll get fired but hopefully you can start a union or some shit as your true calling or not work at a soul crushing company.

It all comes down to choosing between:

1. Preserving personal freedom and integrity, at the risk of being disliked, treated differently, and deprived from certain things. (e.g. unappreciated and kicked out of the workplace.)

2. Preserving financial security (e.g. keeping a job), social status, image, etc., at the risk of whoring yourself. (e.g. being compliant to people you depend on in some way)

Now I guess you can take these relatively, or in "by all costs" manner. Either way, I think most people are split between the two, although some kind of balance is probably reachable.

[Marie84]

Is it even legal to prevent emergency access to bathrooms where you are? I know here you're not allowed to deny access on retail property to any occupant that's legally within the vicinity

adults should not have bathroom emergencies.

[Computer Loser]

Well why not? Do you have weak ?

I remember during my chem final freshman year of college, I had to skip the last 7-8 questions because I had to leave to take a massive dump.

If strong = being able to hold massive dumps during 2 hour exams, then sure, maybe I have weak

Never eating those cafeteria eggs ever again, ever.

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Personally, I'd give exceptions to rules like this... If ya gotta go, ya gotta go. When I used to work in the cafeteria, sometimes students would forget their IDs, and I'd tell them to just go in since I knew they were students. Whatever, no big deal. This other time, when my bro and I went to the school gym, and my bro unsurprisingly forgot his student ID (he's INFp, what do you expect ). The student-worker ended up hunting him down for it (literally, all over the gym)...Most people would just let it go, but this chick was on him like white on rice. Its like dude, just chill the fuck out, stop taking your job so seriously.

With that said, I guess I could see arguments for LSI- I can be pretty strict about doing things my way, or "by the book," while resisting change and such. But perhaps as people have already mentioned, she perceived it as no big deal/dealt with it many times before with no problems.

Need more info I guess.

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Holy crap...I just realized you work in the library and your name is warrior librarian! Oh mah lawd! It all makes sense now.

[Creepy-Korpsey]

Need more info I guess.

Most intelligent post in the thread. Without a broader expose of the supervisor's behavior there are too many unknown variables to realistically deduce her sociotype. To engage in this kind of speculation with the merest whiff of pertinent information is to engage in smoke-blowing and projection.

Consider this. Media-stoked paranoia about child abduction and molestation is widespread (and these are real problems, btw, just blown out of a proportion by paid sensationalists, though that's a different subject). The US (where I assume WL lives) is a ridiculously litigious country full of get-rich-quick schemers dreaming of that icy staircase or unseen puddle. And by dint of increased reliance of digital media, reduced public funding in a shaky economy, and a glut of fresh graduates looking for work, it's no secret that librarians are very concerned about their careers, often even wondering why they didn't get into other fields entirely (read any librarian-written blog for all manner of horror stories). WL's supervisor has to be cognizant of all these hazards, try to reduce the library's liability to them, and retain her job in a highly competitive market. And if she's looking to get promoted, why not uphold the standards that she believes (correctly or otherwise) will earn her the marks necessary to do so? Much of the supervisor's behavior is determined by external factors.

If the actual intent is to get a finger on the supervisor's sociotype it'd be smart to provide more information on her mien and habits.

Also: Librarians are HOTTTTTT

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

who lets their children alone in a public restroom anyway.i don't think letting adults in every now and then would be so dangerous.i mean,don't you have cleaners?

[Lobo]

I really doubt that someone who does not focus on Ne will modify a system that has worked for her for the last 10 years just because of a remote probability that something might or might not happen. This isn't really a life and death thing so it might be best to just go with whatever she wants you to do. No one hasn't been harmed yet by her system (I think). Also, you can think of other possibilities that are in favor of her way of doing things too.

[Beautiful sky]

How did she (your supervisor etc) reprimand you for breaking the rule?

[The Exception]

How did she (your supervisor etc) reprimand you for breaking the rule?

She just raised her voice at me and went into a 5 minute diatribe on why I shouldn't have broken the rule. It wasn't a reprimand in the technical sense of the word but I have the feeling that if I was caught doing it again, it probably would be.

I don't like it, but I am going to be more careful about reinforcing the rule when she's around. Maybe I'll break it when she's not around but then word might get out that I'm letting adults in the kids restroom so she may still find out.

Call me a coward or a hypocrite but I would really like to keep my job and as is much as it pains me, I feel kind of stuck with following a rule I really don't believe in. Librarian jobs are fiercely competitive right now and I can't afford to act in ways that threaten my job. If I lose my job, I have the feeling I'd be struggling a great deal to find a new one.

[Ozz]

She just raised her voice at me and went into a 5 minute diatribe on why I shouldn't have broken the rule. It wasn't a reprimand in the technical sense of the word but I have the feeling that if I was caught doing it again, it probably would be.

I don't like it, but I am going to be more careful about reinforcing the rule when she's around. Maybe I'll break it when she's not around but then word might get out that I'm letting adults in the kids restroom so she may still find out.

Call me a coward or a hypocrite but I would really like to keep my job and as is much as it pains me, I feel kind of stuck with following a rule I really don't believe in. Librarian jobs are fiercely competitive right now and I can't afford to act in ways that threaten my job. If I lose my job, I have the feeling I'd be struggling a great deal to find a new one.

I am sorry to hear that. I know it's tough to be on the front line trying to enforce rules that you don't believe in. In these kind of situation through, I think it is better to just avoid the supervisor's wrath.

[Park]

Call me a coward or a hypocrite but I would really like to keep my job and as is much as it pains me, I feel kind of stuck with following a rule I really don't believe in. Librarian jobs are fiercely competitive right now and I can't afford to act in ways that threaten my job. If I lose my job, I have the feeling I'd be struggling a great deal to find a new one.

Priorities, priorities... I don't blame you. Just take it easy and don't obsess over it.

[Ozz]

I see that some people have proposed that the supervisor is an LSI. As a LSI, I put myself in the supervisor's position and came up with some scenario where I might act in a similar way.

1) Legal liability issue: I personally would have explain that it is a legal liability issue in detail after the part about adults having washroom emergency.

2) Insubordination issue: I see the OP as blatantly ignoring rules. I sense the OP became augmentative, I dug in my heel in response to save face.
(I am not sure about the one as I can't yet think of a concrete example where I acted this way)

[Beautiful sky]

I see that some people have proposed that the supervisor is an LSI. As a LSI, I put myself in the supervisor's position and came up with some scenario where I might act in a similar way.

1) Legal liability issue: I personally would have explain that it is a legal liability issue in detail after the part about adults having washroom emergency.

2) Insubordination issue: I see the OP as blatantly ignoring rules. I sense the OP became augmentative, I dug in my heel in response to save face.
(I am not sure about the one as I can't yet think of a concrete example where I acted this way)

This is what I've been trying to say; that the person has weak and unvalued Ti

[FDG]

2) Insubordination issue: I see the OP as blatantly ignoring rules. I sense the OP became augmentative, I dug in my heel in response to save face.
(I am not sure about the one as I can't yet think of a concrete example where I acted this way)

O lol how idiotic.

Anyway, I think your supervisor was simply going on a power trip. If I were his (her) supervisor, I would have fired him (her) immediately. This attitude is what destroys efficiency in a workplace.

[Ozz]

O lol how idiotic.

Anyway, I think your supervisor was simply going on a power trip. If I were his (her) supervisor, I would have fired him (her) immediately. This attitude is what destroys efficiency in a workplace.

FDG is now hereby banned from both restrooms.

[Timeless]

Everybody becomes when they really have to go.

[The Exception]

Everybody becomes when they really have to go.

[Creepy-male]

You know I thought about this further, I think the most ingenious way to balance both sides of the issue, is to put in children looking letters "Children's Restroom" you know like little infantile blocks or something cute, and leave it unlocked. Then to name the other restroom "Adults".

Most people already realize the difference between Men and Women's Restrooms and the stigma for a Guy walking into the Women's Restroom is awful and embarassing and No one would ever dream of doing it unless they were desperate to use a restroom and their was no Men's restroom.

Same thing with the children's restroom, if you make it look all child like, no one will want to use it for the stigma, it would be like seeing a grown up in the "baby pool".... plus they may look like a molester and get stares from other adults. The only people who would go there are the extremely desperate. They probably would still ask, out of the possibility of being embarassed for just walking in without permission and looking like a molester.

This way, its still an open option, but depends on social forces to keep people in line rather than explicit brute force.

[Bardia]

You know I thought about this further, I think the most ingenious way to balance both sides of the issue, is to put in children looking letters "Children's Restroom" you know like little infantile blocks or something cute, and leave it unlocked. Then to name the other restroom "Adults".

Most people already realize the difference between Men and Women's Restrooms and the stigma for a Guy walking into the Women's Restroom is awful and embarassing and No one would ever dream of doing it unless they were desperate to use a restroom and their was no Men's restroom.

Same thing with the children's restroom, if you make it look all child like, no one will want to use it for the stigma, it would be like seeing a grown up in the "baby pool".... plus they may look like a molester and get stares from other adults. The only people who would go there are the extremely desperate. They probably would still ask, out of the possibility of being embarassed for just walking in without permission and looking like a molester.

This way, its still an open option, but depends on social forces to keep people in line rather than explicit brute force.

I think that's a really good idea.

[Park]

I think that's a really good idea.

And a really cool way to approach her supervisor and/or boss, and get an epic kick-out.

[Creepy-male]

And a really cool way to approach her supervisor and/or boss, and get an epic kick-out.

Lol I don't think she should approach her supervisor and/or boss and propose that idea, I was just saying I think if I were the supervisor that's how I'd handle it, of course I am not the supervisor, nor is warrior librarian.

Apparently there is this thing people always hear about leadership.... "good leaders are able to listen to other people for there advice whether they agree or disagree".... unfortunately there is this thing people always hear about too.... "life isn't perfect".

So yea considering how her manager took it the first time around, you are probably right to say she doesn't push the issue.

I still however feel like the manager is power tripping because she isn't open to other points of view.

[1981slater]

Warrior LIIIIIIbrarian!

Your supervisor knows you are right, but Se egos are scared of Ne people and he will bash you because of that. They will never say "I agree with you". The only thing those cavemen can do is undermine ne people.

Who said my supervisor is se? All stupid bosses are se.

[Azeroffs]

Sometimes even if a possibility is improbable doesn't mean it isn't worth considering.

Depends on how improbable. I'm sure even alpha NTs would agree that seriously considering outrageous possibilities beyond just the thought of it would be ridiculous.

"Well what if some guy has a timed explosive up his ass and he needs to get it out right now?"

a pretty much universal response from any supervisor:

Someone needing to throw up is a perfectly reasonable consideration. Your supervisor just sounds like they're on some power trip or maybe they just felt like you were being condescending somehow.

[The Exception]

Depends on how improbable. I'm sure even alpha NTs would agree that seriously considering outrageous possibilities beyond just the thought of it would be ridiculous.

"Well what if some guy has a timed explosive up his ass and he needs to get it out right now?"

Okay, that example is pretty ridiculous.

But it could happen. You never know............

Someone needing to throw up is a perfectly reasonable consideration. Your supervisor just sounds like they're on some power trip or maybe they just felt like you were being condescending somehow.

I don't consider myself at all condescending but I suppose there have been people in my life who wrongly perceive me that way. I think this happens with people who have weak thinking, and I'm throwing logic in their faces.

[Creepy-male]

"Well what if some guy has a timed explosive up his ass and he needs to get it out right now?"

The point isn't that that is extremely unlikely and policies shouldn't be made around stupid scenarios.

The point is that if that were to happen you'd expect people to bend the rules a little bit, instead of be like "sorry sir, your just going to have let that explode in your ass! rules are rules!"

[Azeroffs]

The point isn't that that is extremely unlikely and policies shouldn't be made around stupid scenarios.

The point is that if that were to happen you'd expect people to bend the rules a little bit, instead of be like "sorry sir, your just going to have let that explode in your ass! rules are rules!"

I'd be shocked if there was someone who wouldn't bend the rules under such a scenario.

Maybe what should be argued is that Ne types or alpha NTs may have a higher tolerance for bending the rules? Idk if that's true though. I don't really see any particular reason why they would be especially more tolerant.

[Creepy-male]

I'd be shocked if there was someone who wouldn't bend the rules under such a scenario.

Maybe what should be argued is that Ne types or alpha NTs may have a higher tolerance for bending the rules? Idk if that's true though. I don't really see any particular reason why they would be especially more tolerant.

Yea I'm not particularly sold on the idea of it being type related...

My whole whatever on this topic, is that I think occasional bending of the rules isn't a bad thing.

I understand the supervisors position of needing to have her subordinates follow the rules and her orders because that's basically management and what its about, making sure the "ship" is functioning properly and managing people to tasks (I worked a minor managerial job at a supermarket/grocery store -- and hated it)... but in certain circumstances bending the rules and allowing subordinates to improvise difficult situations is almost vital.

I think the manager could have said something like "Well I'll consider that, but you need to stick by policy as much as possible, and ideally have a manager handle it if its outside normal procedures if at all possible". Then the manager should go up the chain of command and let the administrator know about the suggested policy change, keeping warrior librarian anonymous unless the administrator liked the idea. That kind of a model benefits the workplace a lot more in my opinion.

Also I wouldn't suggest Warrior Library do anything crazy and get fired from her job, but my sympathies are with her, because I feel that is a bit excessive personally.

[cracka]

He said it was an emergency that he felt like he absolutely couldn't hold it in any longer. So I did what I thought was the common sense thing to do. I let him use it. Sometimes exceptions have to be made.

If I got yelled at for doing this, I'd probably say, "I'm sorry that i broke the rule, but I made a judgment call that it was the right thing to do at the time. I'll take more care in making those kind of decisions from now on." and that would be it... I'd hope.

I think you did the right thing, personally. Sometimes people in a management position do in fact need to tell you that you did something wrong, even if it's probably the right thing to do. Think about it, a person runs up to your supervisor and begs for the key and it's toooootally clear that the person's about to "go" in their pants... I wonder what their course of action would be? On one hand their a hypocrite if they let them use it, on the other they are a complete bastard for causing someone to "go" in their pants...lol. I don't see a clear wrong or right here if it's an actual emergency. Again, they'd have to be somewhat convincing that it's an actual emergency.

[The Ineffable]

Sometimes even if a possibility is improbable doesn't mean it isn't worth considering.

Not sure about Alpha NT, but totally Ne, not only because it means rather the imperativeness to consider a potential, but also because IME Ne types are the most vocal against this "we/they will handle it somehow". The question is *how?*.

I think in this case Fi polr in showing in Mountain Dews post

Don't be dumb. It's rather unvalued Si/Ne, if anything. I totally disagree with that and IMO not understanding the limits and feeling above nature is a big mistake.

If strong = being able to hold massive dumps during 2 hour exams, then sure, maybe I have weak

No, it's rather weak Se or Ni. Please spare us of your bullshit typing, you're a whiny Alphan, LSI makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I know here you're not allowed to deny access on retail property to any occupant that's legally within the vicinity

Here too, it's illegal to obstruct access to restrooms, private property may even get shut down by law if they have no functional ones.

If somebody denies me the use of his restroom, I just shit on his couch. So, no problem.

LOL! I'd pee on their walls somewhere in the back. The need to take a dump is however an aggravating circumstance.
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It's decided: people who support WL in this thread can't keep in