Some thing I noticed with Se base types

[The Exception]

I'm back after my short hiatus. I swore I wouldn't be coming back, guess I was wrong.

Anyway I got to tihnking about Se base types. Being an LII with Se PoLR, I've tended to see them as overly aggressive, abrasive my way or the highway types.

Sure they may fight for their own way but I've come to realize that they may not be so stubborn with their will as I once thought. I think the Se base types expect that the others will fight back in an Se sort of way if their desires conflict with yours. They aren't necessarily going to get offended if you fight back. In fact they might welcome it. It isn't necessarily that the Se types are trying to be difficult, its just that the Se way of doing things is so natural to them. But those with weak Se, especially Se PoLR might feel otherwise.

I've heard Se base types say things to me like "feel the power" or "don't be afraid to go in there and fight" It's not that I'm completely a doormat who never stands up for myself. I just don't feel comfortable doing it in an Se sort of way. I'd rather calmly reason with the other person.

I think SEE types in particular feel threatened or even offended by this tactic of reasoning with them. And why not? Ti is their PoLR.

So I got to thinking that our base function is something so natural to us that we can wrongly assume that everyone else around us uses it like we do. For example, there have been times when I've discussed something like a logical system and waited for someone to make their Ti contributions to improve on the system and wondered why no one was doing it or worse yet, why others seem threatened or intimidated by it.


Anyone else relate to this?

[EyeSeeCold]

They're not like that at all.

[ashlesha]

is the OP really so off? i guess maybe it doesn't seem that way to me because i'm also Se polr? probably. interesting that warrior-librarian sees SEEs as being more resistant to reason when they seem more open to me than SLEs, which i think goes to show how much our type perceptions are influencing this, haha.

it reminded me of this incident with my old SLE boss when he was telling me i shouldn't have done something and since i was confident in my disagreement and frustrated with his perspective, i kind of snapped and raised my voice at him -- and purposefully acted kind of belligerent about it because i just had a suspicion that he would be receptive if i acted that way. and at my next performance review he was all effusive and thrilled and said that i was "finally showing some confidence." umm...dude, i was confident before. i just didn't feel the need to be all belligerent about it. lol, god.

[The Exception]

and at my next performance review he was all effusive and thrilled and said that i was "finally showing some confidence." umm...dude, i was confident before. i just didn't feel the need to be all belligerent about it. lol, god.

I'm always getting told by people to be more confident even when I am confident. I guess its because I come across as tentative and not definitive enough to others because there's always another possibility to be considered. There goes the creative .

[ashlesha]

I'm always getting told by people to be more confident even when I am confident. I guess its because I come across as tentative and not definitive enough to others because there's always another possibility to be considered. There goes the creative .

ya, my more natural reaction would have been something more along the lines of, "okay, i see what you're getting at but this is where i was coming from with what i did and i think it was valid." (which would have been true.) but i had been working with him long enough to know he would have seen that sort of reaction as weakness and plowed through it. from my perspective, this seems so unreasonable. thanks for bringing up the / thing, that hadn't clicked to me before.

edit: disclaimer that i'm talking about a specific person and that i don't necessarily extend this to mean all Se base types are unreasonable, etc. etc. i think he was kind of...special.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm always getting told by people to be more confident even when I am confident. I guess its because I come across as tentative and not definitive enough to others because there's always another possibility to be considered. There goes the creative .

I was just gonna say, "be more confident" and "it's all about confidence"

love your Se signature

They're not like that at all.

I agree completely.
Warrior, what the heck are you writing. Do you even know or comprehend what you're saying here? Se doesn't mean that the person will tell you to do things like that. Please don't write things like this; it has no meaning, is inaccurate, and highly irrelevant to type. It makes a type, in this case Se, seem distinctly different from others because you put them in a box which suggests they are exactly as you wrote, which isn't true. Anyone of any type can say those things to you; that is not related to Se.

We have pointed out countless times what Se is; you may start by reading Carl Jung's work.

[Creepy-Snaps]

I'd rather calmly reason with the other person.

Pussy.

umm...dude, i was confident before. i just didn't feel the need to be all belligerent about it. lol, god.

If you aren't willing to get into a fight for something, you're not confident.

And yelling is normal. I would generally agree with the OP's observations: I have been called aggressive many times before, and get into fights, think punishments are not only tolerable but necessary, get defiant whenever someone tells me what to do, even if it's something little (cause you can't let them tell you to do something small, cause next time it'll be something bigger, and bigger, till they're telling you every little freaking thing: don't give them any control or power. Make a stand from the start.), and I've been told that I see the world as black and white. Guess that falls under the 'my way or the highway' observation.

I'd also agree with warrior-librarian's observation, that we expect Se-communication from other people. Sometimes, kind of like challenging authority, I'll do something I know I'm 'not supposed to do', just to see if the other person will stand up and try to stop me. If they don't say anything, or let it pass by, then I can do it. And they're too much of a coward to do anything about it. I guess it's kind of like bullying. But if the other person just says something, and stands up, then I respect that. And won't mess again... until maybe a couple months later, if I need to test them again.

I notice I do tend to compete and be aggressive... except if I'm overwhelming my 'opponent', so to speak. With IEIs... they're just so nice, dare I say passive, that I realize I'm clearly in control, there's nothing to compete against. They're of no threat to me. So I don't need to challenge them at all. I can be nice and respectful to other types too.

I don't mess with others higher than me who have clear authority and control, and I expect others lower than me not to mess with me either. I guess Se-types just need a hierarchy? If I may be creative , you could compare us to the young cub, always challenging the head lion to someday become leader of the pack themselves.

If you're not willing to stand up for yourself, or take control for anything, more often than not, I'll just view you as a pawn in someone else's game.

[FDG]

lol mountain dew. you're emphatically embarassing.

[Creepy-Snaps]

lol mountain dew. you're emphatically embarassing.

And you're emphatically a douche. Screw you.

I remember from the other thread, like a month ago, I think you had called me obnoxious (if I remember correctly that it was you, I do remember it was from an ENTj). I'm glad you think I'm here for your entertainment.

FDG= troll. Commenting only on my comment to the original topic? Even if labcoat's "seconded" is in reference to your comment about my being embarrassing, at least he contributed to the thread afterwards.

Troll me more, bro.

[krieger]

Seconded. It's the ESFps that are immune to reason. ESTps are quite reasonable by comparison.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Librarian, I think you're a little misguided but I know what you mean.

I realized that in my life, I always gave my heart out/was nice to people who had problems being violent. Guys who shanked people, girls who shanked people. I even had romantic relationships with all of these people. They felt hurt by society, and I felt sorry for them. Call me an idiot, but I couldn't help but feel some sort of remorse for them.

I still don't know how to really formulate it. I think it's more complicated than I can imagine, but I think - there's some safety in physical violence or something, as weird as that sounds. It's like I know they might be physically violent with others, but they won't do that to me, if I'm nice enough to them. I think it's my IEI pussy nature, I instinctively know if you 'let somebody be rude to you' then 99% of people are going to feel guilty and back off. I understand that when people are being that way, they're usually just 'testing love.' It's like if they cross that boundary, they will feel guilty. (and I naturally avoid 100% sociopaths anyway)

And fighting back or complaining about being hurt, just makes them want to do it more to you. That's why the Christian notion of being martyrs for peace is such a powerful message.

Now there are exceptions. Obviously, I start feel bad if they go too far, and I'm wary about my romantic attractions to people who are so physically violent. But they've also protected me before in situations where other people hadn't. And it was really brave to me. =/

And people who are physically violent they weren't necessarily socially cruel to me like others. I've had a lot of situations where people have treated me like shit before, but there was no physical confrontation. It was just psychological. As soon as I was physical and se-ish to them, they backed away. In fact I never got threatened physically. Only once before, and it was pretty horrible, but I got over it. But the dude that did it, I highly doubt he was an estp. He seemed more like a very unhealthy enfj.

I guess I'm just a tactile person. I'm more impressed by real physical acts then I am somebody psychologically saying something.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I noticed the boys who picked on me in school, were so insecure that they were bad as sports as I was, so they said the most soulless stuff to me, and tried to get under my skin as possible because they hated themselves for being as faggy as sports and I was, and the guys who were actually macho and good- they protected me when I was being bullied for that. They also were very good in bed, physically visceral, and it just compatible estp/infp sex. *shrug*

People who don't understand me think I don't have any self-respect for myself. Whatever. They just don't understand submissive/dominant relationships. They want everybody on top and competing. That's really retarded to me. I'm not gonna participate in your lame-ass society experiment just so you can see how many hoops you can get me to jump through. Find a new puppy.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Librarian, I like you and your posts. Please stay around.

[Aiss]

Anyway I got to tihnking about Se base types. Being an LII with Se PoLR, I've tended to see them as overly aggressive, abrasive my way or the highway types.

Sure they may fight for their own way but I've come to realize that they may not be so stubborn with their will as I once thought. I think the Se base types expect that the others will fight back in an Se sort of way if their desires conflict with yours. They aren't necessarily going to get offended if you fight back. In fact they might welcome it. It isn't necessarily that the Se types are trying to be difficult, its just that the Se way of doing things is so natural to them. But those with weak Se, especially Se PoLR might feel otherwise.

I think you're right insofar as most of Se aggressiveness or abrasiveness is rather how some people feel about than how it is. No offense intended; my own impression of non-Se people is that I have to tread on eggshells near them, because they're going to be offended if I'm too assertive or not apologetic enough, or something, my way or the highway in more of the passive-aggressive fashion. And at risk of you being offended by it after all, I must add that your own reaction to MD and FDG - neither of whom attacked you - is exactly the sort of thing that makes me feel like that. This is of course entirely subjective, too.

I've heard Se base types say things to me like "feel the power" or "don't be afraid to go in there and fight" It's not that I'm completely a doormat who never stands up for myself. I just don't feel comfortable doing it in an Se sort of way. I'd rather calmly reason with the other person.

I think SEE types in particular feel threatened or even offended by this tactic of reasoning with them. And why not? Ti is their PoLR.

I can't speak for SEEs, but in general I don't have any problems reasoning with Ti-PoLRs? No screaming involved, either.

So I got to thinking that our base function is something so natural to us that we can wrongly assume that everyone else around us uses it like we do. For example, there have been times when I've discussed something like a logical system and waited for someone to make their Ti contributions to improve on the system and wondered why no one was doing it or worse yet, why others seem threatened or intimidated by it.

That's what I mean by taking base function for granted, too. My first reaction to Ni descriptions was Forer effect warning, sort of assuming everyone would relate.

[Slacker]

People don't expect others to be strong in what they're strong in. For instance, our duals are not strong in our base functions, and we do not expect them to be. We are happy to take care of that for them. People do not always understand when people don't value what they value, though.

[Creepy-Snaps]

So you're saying idiotic (hypothetically, of course) contribution would actually be better than no contribution?

Hypothetically, yes. Gets the creative juices flowing, gets people thinking.

And for the record, I don't think my contribution was idiotic. FDG just seems to dislike all my posts.

This is "my" forum as much as it's "everyone's" forum, so it's perfectly legitimate for me to try to halt a certain trend of posts which might cause its degeneration. Your posts were mostly embarassing when compared to how an average real-life SLE acts, they were not constructive.

Then please enlighten us. Actually contribute to the thread. How do "average real-life SLEs" act, in particular concerning Se-base?

Please don't go on account of them. People will always bitch at each other on this forum. >.> And welcome back.

------------

Does anyone like being told what to do? I sure don't, and I highly doubt I'm base.

Librarian, I like you and your posts. Please stay around.

To both of these... don't let my arguing with FDG scare you away. I'm done arguing with him, even if he continues it. Do stay please.

Only because you don't like a quality in people, doesn't mean Se-egos like that quality. Or have it.

Very true. =\ The "aggressiveness" and "abrasiveness" is one aspect of Se. Se-base doesn't mean you're confrontational, it can simply mean that you have a high awareness of confrontation, despite being quite respectful yourself.

A lot of the OP actually makes sense to me. And I don't see what's so embarrassing about MD's post. He actually sounds like a pretty decent SLE to me. If my son really is an SLE, I hope he turns out to be that good.

Yes, I don't think it was embarrassing either of course... I know it perhaps "lacked some empathy" and maybe came across harshly... but it was at least constructive. FDG just doesn't like me. And tyvm pianosinger. If your son really is an SLE, I hope he turns out to be better than me.

People don't expect others to be strong in what they're strong in. For instance, our duals are not strong in our base functions, and we do not expect them to be. We are happy to take care of that for them. People do not always understand when people don't value what they value, though.

Yes. Can't we all just get along? We need to learn to appreciate each other's strengths and not getting picky over little things. *points finger at everyone else*

[Krig the Viking]

I'm back after my short hiatus. I swore I wouldn't be coming back, guess I was wrong.

Anyway I got to tihnking about Se base types. Being an LII with Se PoLR, I've tended to see them as overly aggressive, abrasive my way or the highway types.

Sure they may fight for their own way but I've come to realize that they may not be so stubborn with their will as I once thought. I think the Se base types expect that the others will fight back in an Se sort of way if their desires conflict with yours. They aren't necessarily going to get offended if you fight back. In fact they might welcome it. It isn't necessarily that the Se types are trying to be difficult, its just that the Se way of doing things is so natural to them. But those with weak Se, especially Se PoLR might feel otherwise.

Agreed. Se-Base may not actively think of themselves as overly aggressive, but they are certainly comfortable with aggression, both in using it themselves, and in dealing with it from others.

I've heard Se base types say things to me like "feel the power" or "don't be afraid to go in there and fight" It's not that I'm completely a doormat who never stands up for myself. I just don't feel comfortable doing it in an Se sort of way. I'd rather calmly reason with the other person.

I think SEE types in particular feel threatened or even offended by this tactic of reasoning with them. And why not? Ti is their PoLR.

So I got to thinking that our base function is something so natural to us that we can wrongly assume that everyone else around us uses it like we do. For example, there have been times when I've discussed something like a logical system and waited for someone to make their Ti contributions to improve on the system and wondered why no one was doing it or worse yet, why others seem threatened or intimidated by it.


Anyone else relate to this?

I completely relate to that. I almost wrecked a friendship with an EII because of it -- whenever we would disagree on some relatively minor thing, I would analyze her position logically and then wait for her to make her own Ti contribution so we could continue logically analyzing the subject. I was completely oblivious to how threatening and hurtful she found this -- it just didn't occur to me that not everyone values analytical logic.

People don't expect others to be strong in what they're strong in. For instance, our duals are not strong in our base functions, and we do not expect them to be. We are happy to take care of that for them. People do not always understand when people don't value what they value, though.

Agreed. I think this is particularly the case with our Base function -- we just naturally assume that everyone values our base function, and get confused and even bewildered when they don't.

[krieger]

I'd like to add that the notion of a "PoLR function" is not particularly useful or even valid. The distinction between PoLR and Creative function is basically a pointless sub-compartmentalization. The two refer to the same thing. So whenever I'm talking about Se in the sense of Strong Se, the weakness of intuitive functions is implied automatically and I will typically not refer to these functions individually due to how doing so would be redundant.

[Beautiful sky]

The reason why it's a PoLR is because it's conscious awareness of one's inabilities. I think that presents some stress on the person consciously. Take me. Se types take me hiking and do some intense Se experience; while they are doing it with an ease, I'm there dying of stress. Take the conscious fear of Ni and the new LSE that I'm interested in. He changed my computer battery life to indicate how much time I have left, uses all sorts of time telling devices to measure the time he spends on his work; another words, he's trying to control his activities in relation to time and trying to strengthen his poLR. I find myself saying to myself that I should go out and do things and see things (gather experiences) and you can find Minde saying this too when she says that she hasn't gone out and taken photographs lately and thinks she should go do that. The "should" part is pretty much a good indication of not having the "will" to do it. That the person has to think about experiencing an plan on doing something is also indication of rational type and also an indication that they don't have Se in the conscious block.

It's thrilling for me when people don't have to talk about doing it and just go out (mindlessly, wildly) and experience living and doing. SLE thrill me. SEE amaze me, because they are always doing.

[Marie84]

I'm always getting told by people to be more confident even when I am confident. I guess its because I come across as tentative and not definitive enough to others because there's always another possibility to be considered. There goes the creative .

I think that might be it. Se dominants seem to base themselves on active decisiveness without second guessing so Ne probably appears as redundancy to them. I've notice Ne's have a manner of speaking and dealing with things with an air of uncertainty that is really not a confidence issue but a hesitancy in asserting definitiveness

[krieger]

Se is all about inferring the match of an observed situation with a proto-type. Having seen the exact conditions before means that an inference to recognition of these conditions is warranted to them. This is how they are both decisive and unwilling to entertain non-standard alternatives.

Si is largely the same thing, however in Si's case there is no need for "inference", because the match is made on the level of observation itself rather than on the level of the situation that is removed from the observational layer of experience.

[Aiss]

Weak, 1-dimensional Se is all about inferring the match of an observed situation with a proto-type. Having seen the exact conditions before means that an inference to recognition of these conditions is warranted to them.

FFT

[krieger]

1. dimensionality theory is bogus
2. "weak Se" is equivalent to "intuitives", so your claim is directly in conflict with... 99% of what has ever been written about the difference between S and N types
3. stop perpetuating this silly climate where no one can ever speak of a types' weaknesses cause someone somewhere might dislike being confronted with such things

[Aiss]

1. dimensionality theory is bogus
2. "weak Se" is equivalent to "intuitives", so your claim is directly in conflict with... 99% of what has ever been written about the difference between S and N types

So why do you keep ascribing universal PoLR qualities to element that, accidentally, I'm sure, happens to be your PoLR? You're taking your own perspective and assuming it to be objective; worse yet, you're misleading others by presenting it as such.

What you described as Se in the other thread fits xSE types exactly, by the way - either assuming things will go exactly as they did in the past or that they're absolutely unpredictable. Guess why? It's Ni-PoLR that I notice most.

3. stop perpetuating this silly climate where no one can ever speak of a types' weaknesses cause someone somewhere might dislike being confronted with such things

Considering I've never done anything like that, I must say your delusions aren't my problem.

[Beautiful sky]

I think that might be it. Se dominants seem to base themselves on active decisiveness without second guessing so Ne probably appears as redundancy to them. I've notice Ne's have a manner of speaking and dealing with things with an air of uncertainty that is really not a confidence issue but a hesitancy in asserting definitiveness

That's more to do with perception then "confidence". Ne types are very confident, they just don't want to say that because it's that then it will be that no matter what (closing doors and making decisions).

[Aiss]

Only because you don't like a quality in people, doesn't mean Se-egos like that quality. Or have it.

quoteworthy

[pianosinger]

A lot of the OP actually makes sense to me. And I don't see what's so embarrassing about MD's post. He actually sounds like a pretty decent SLE to me. If my son really is an SLE, I hope he turns out to be that good.

In response to the OP, there may be some SLE's that have a "my way or the highway" attitude, but I also think it's possible that this attitude could be more indicative of weak and valued Se.

[Beautiful sky]

A lot of the OP actually makes sense to me. And I don't see what's so embarrassing about MD's post. He actually sounds like a pretty decent SLE to me. If my son really is an SLE, I hope he turns out to be that good.

In response to the OP, there may be some SLE's that have a "my way or the highway" attitude, but I also think it's possible that this attitude could be more indicative of weak and valued Se.

What do you mean by weak and valued Se? As in IEI?

[pianosinger]

What do you mean by weak and valued Se? As in IEI?

As in, someone who values power and authority, and wants to be in charge, but lacks the ability to mobilize people to do what they want them to do without coming across to everyone as a spineless jack***.

[EyeSeeCold]

Base does not automatically make SEE and SLE aggressive and unreasonable, always looking for a fight. Everything isn't always a battle of wills with them.

[ashlesha]

i don't think that in this case its about picking a disliked trait and assigning an incompatible type with it. more like seeing something that exists and misinterpreting because of a lack of understanding due to type. idk if this distinction is actually important or not, but in my case "my way or the highway" is definitely something i see in Se regardless of whether that's an accurate interpretation or clear view of it (and i'm very willing to try to conceptualize it more fairly, but idk how much that would help me actually see it differently when its in front of me irl).

[Beautiful sky]

i don't think that in this case its about picking a disliked trait and assigning an incompatible type with it. more like seeing something that exists and misinterpreting because of a lack of understanding due to type. idk if this distinction is actually important or not, but in my case "my way or the highway" is definitely something i see in Se regardless of whether that's an accurate interpretation or clear view of it (and i'm very willing to try to conceptualize it more fairly, but idk how much that would help me actually see it differently when its in front of me irl).

let me give an example...my sister is ESE and says this all the time, my EII friend (who has lost her friggin mind) says this and makes ultimatums all the time..now you tell me if this behavior is associated with Se ego types or not?

[Exodus]

i don't think that in this case its about picking a disliked trait and assigning an incompatible type with it. more like seeing something that exists and misinterpreting because of a lack of understanding due to type. idk if this distinction is actually important or not, but in my case "my way or the highway" is definitely something i see in Se regardless of whether that's an accurate interpretation or clear view of it (and i'm very willing to try to conceptualize it more fairly, but idk how much that would help me actually see it differently when its in front of me irl).

Very well said. Warrior-librarian may have described things in a slightly biased way (she even noted that it was just how she sees it), but that doesn't mean that her observations are inaccurate.