INFp visionaries

[krieger]

Hmmm, wouldn't it be more common to find an INFp visionary in areas that are not related to the economy and recession? I'm basing it on the first video. I would think that they find more fulfillment when it's about something like changes in societal trends, rather than predicting things like recession. I don't think it's that common to find INFps talking about these things like the guy in the first video.

I'm not sure why INFps would recoil from such a topic per say. It seems like just another thing that the Ni function can be set loose on with interesting results.

Celente does speak about social trends a lot, by the way. He thinks that a major depression would bring about a resurgence of elaborate grooming and presenting oneself at one's best, for example.

I'm also very skeptical about people who claim to predict things. To me it seems like shoot or miss, even if they get it right.

Well, it's difficult. That's a reason to be sceptical, but also a reason to be impressed when a person repeatedly manages to predict correctly. Celente's track record is far from perfect, but it's quite good in comparison to that of others.

Besides, if your type is INFj like you claim, this may simply be a case of you devaluing Ni or some other function these guys use when making predictions (some Ti is probably involved).

[krieger]

It's interesting to think about what kind of functions are used in making predictions like these...

Celente's style revolves around making very powerful, all-encompassing statements about the future based on his perception of unfolding trends. IMO there is some Ti shining through here in this character of all-encompassing grandeur, particularly the beta version.

If, instead, you'd look at someone like Jim Rogers, who I think is an INTp, you see more of an attitude of "this and that trend don't look good and worry me, so I'm doing X", i.e. the certainty, the rigid determination, are in the action of the person rather than in the prediction of fact.

[Lobo]

I'm not sure why INFps would recoil from such a topic per say. It seems like just another thing that the Ni function can be set loose on with interesting results.

Celente does speak about social trends a lot, by the way. He thinks that a major depression would bring about a resurgence of elaborate grooming and presenting oneself at one's best, for example.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. His choice of prediction just seems a little odd for me, coming from an INFp.

Well, it's difficult. That's a reason to be sceptical, but also a reason to be impressed when a person repeatedly manages to predict correctly. Celente's track record is far from perfect, but it's quite good in comparison to that of others.

Besides, if your type is INFj like you claim, this may simply be a case of you devaluing Ni or some other function these guys use when making predictions (some Ti is probably involved).

I wouldn't say devaluing Ni, but not seeing the point in making these predictions (maybe that's devaluing Ni, lol). Things of that scale are going to happen regardless of you pointing them out, you can't control fate, imo. You might as well just take things as they come, rather than anticipating something you have no actual control over, but that's just me .

[krieger]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which a person could profit from positioning themselves in the world (and in the financial markets particularly) based on the perception of trends like these. If you hedge yourself properly against a massive depression like the one he is predicting, you could be like John D. Rockefeller buying up assets that are devalued relative to your hedge. The rewards of getting these predictions right and positioning yourself accordingly are not really in question.

[EyeSeeCold]

Jimi Hendrix - The Visionary Artist

[krieger]

Interesting suggestion. Seems kind of docile in a Si/Ne kind of way in this interview, though. I don't register much of that in Celente and Fresco.

[EyeSeeCold]

He's too shy offstage. Se/Ni shows especially in his music.

[Park]

Jaque Fresco is no Beta. Alpha NT more likely.

[krieger]

The whole Zeitgeist thing is Te-PoLR, not Fi PoLR. It lacks practicality, not ethical consistency.

[Singu]

I just watched the new "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward" movie (ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011), which features Jacque Fresco. The movie advocates what Fresco is basically advocating, which is called the "Venus Project" or whatever. I don't necessarily agree with the ideas presented with the movie, but there were some interesting ideas. It was kind of too radical and idealistic for my taste, but basically, I thought the movie was rather INFp, and maybe anti-Te or anti-Si, or whatever. What the movie does is it actually advocates the overthrowing of the current currency system, in favor of a currency-less "resource-based economy". That sort of thing is maybe... Beta. Fe > Te? What I didn't really like about the movie was that perhaps in the stereotypical Beta fashion, it gets too... lofty? And the talks of a "revolution" and all that, which gets messy. Obviously, not all Betas are like that, but they can be.

Jesus Christ... I just realized that nutcases like Jared Lautner have ate this stuff up and killed a bunch of people. These kind of ideas can be dangerous... when it's handed to the wrong kind of people.

A third that I think is worth mentioning is Karl Marx. It is rather strange and dubious thing that people are so strongly inclined to slap the ENTp label on this guy given that he has been dead for more than a century and most of the information available about him is at least as old. This kind of certainty doesn't fit the epistemic difficulty in establishing his type. I suggest INFp as an alternative typing:

Yes... that's what I thought too. I don't know too much about the guy, but it's like, come on. His whole ideas are kind of too idealistic, and authoritarian. Now, I'm not saying that ALL INFps or Betas are like that, but they can be. His idea of transitioning from Socialism to Communism seems like the typical "to make an omelette you'd have to break a few eggs" kind of thinking that some Ni/Se types entertain in. Again, not all Ni/Se types are like that, some will become wise enough to realize that human lives and values are more important than their lofty ideals about the future. But if you focus too much on Ni, as you will, then you can forget about the moment and focus too much about the possibilities of the future.

So, basically, I think that there are many INFps, who identify themselves as the so-called "futurists", who paint a fantastic picture of the future and get everyone to get excited or motivated toward that goal. I think that they can be either very successful or unsuccessful, have a very novel or destructive goals and ideas, depending on how grounded they are. Obviously, not all INFps are going to be either too idealistic or lofty. In Socionics terms, maybe we can say that they are "developed in Te or Si", or whatever. Or maybe we can just say... that they are more grounded in reality.

[krieger]

Let's also not forget the the violent overthrow of classes was always a part of Marx' ideas. People like to say that Marx was the perfect example of a naive Alpha type that had his ideas usurped by Beta, but it wasn't like that. Marx was no kitty. He really saw revolution as a violent, bloody act from the start.

A lot of that runs counter to the image projected by the description of Si/Ne quadras in socionics.

My personal impression of ENTps is also that they are rather a-political and uninterested in societal movements and political dynamics; i.e. they just want to be left alone in a stimulating environment and come up with ideas, not get involved in all this political tug-of-war. Marx was something different. Precipitating the political movement was his pointed intent all along.

[Lobo]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which a person could profit from positioning themselves in the world (and in the financial markets particularly) based on the perception of trends like these. If you hedge yourself properly against a massive depression like the one he is predicting, you could be like John D. Rockefeller buying up assets that are devalued relative to your hedge. The rewards of getting these predictions right and positioning yourself accordingly are not really in question.

Yeah, it does help the individual if they trust on an accurate prediction, but I wonder if it would have a negative effect on the collective when everyone knows (or takes heed) about the trend, as opposed to just a few people. I've heard that this is true of the stock market, in that it's better for the collective if people act normally in the face of an impending drop, rather than try to get themselves in a better position. But, that's another topic.