INFp visionaries

[krieger]

This seems to be a very common role for INFps to play: the guy with the radical idea that precipitates or presages a major societal trend; the primordial intellectual source of a political movement. I've come across at least 2:

Gerald Celente:


Jaque Fresco:


A third that I think is worth mentioning is Karl Marx. It is rather strange and dubious thing that people are so strongly inclined to slap the ENTp label on this guy given that he has been dead for more than a century and most of the information available about him is at least as old. This kind of certainty doesn't fit the epistemic difficulty in establishing his type. I suggest INFp as an alternative typing:


I think there is a bit of a tendency to confuse this version of INFp with ENTps in general. Under taciturn/narrator cycle theory, this fact is explained by the adjacency of the two types on the taciturn/irrational/positivist cycle: ISTp-ESFp-INFp-ENTp-ISTp

[Lobo]

Hmmm, wouldn't it be more common to find an INFp visionary in areas that are not related to the economy and recession? I'm basing it on the first video. I would think that they find more fulfillment when it's about something like changes in societal trends, rather than predicting things like recession. I don't think it's that common to find INFps talking about these things like the guy in the first video.

I'm also very skeptical about people who claim to predict things. To me it seems like shoot or miss, even if they get it right.

[krieger]

Hmmm, wouldn't it be more common to find an INFp visionary in areas that are not related to the economy and recession? I'm basing it on the first video. I would think that they find more fulfillment when it's about something like changes in societal trends, rather than predicting things like recession. I don't think it's that common to find INFps talking about these things like the guy in the first video.

I'm not sure why INFps would recoil from such a topic per say. It seems like just another thing that the Ni function can be set loose on with interesting results.

Celente does speak about social trends a lot, by the way. He thinks that a major depression would bring about a resurgence of elaborate grooming and presenting oneself at one's best, for example.

I'm also very skeptical about people who claim to predict things. To me it seems like shoot or miss, even if they get it right.

Well, it's difficult. That's a reason to be sceptical, but also a reason to be impressed when a person repeatedly manages to predict correctly. Celente's track record is far from perfect, but it's quite good in comparison to that of others.

Besides, if your type is INFj like you claim, this may simply be a case of you devaluing Ni or some other function these guys use when making predictions (some Ti is probably involved).

[krieger]

It's interesting to think about what kind of functions are used in making predictions like these...

Celente's style revolves around making very powerful, all-encompassing statements about the future based on his perception of unfolding trends. IMO there is some Ti shining through here in this character of all-encompassing grandeur, particularly the beta version.

If, instead, you'd look at someone like Jim Rogers, who I think is an INTp, you see more of an attitude of "this and that trend don't look good and worry me, so I'm doing X", i.e. the certainty, the rigid determination, are in the action of the person rather than in the prediction of fact.

[Lobo]

I'm not sure why INFps would recoil from such a topic per say. It seems like just another thing that the Ni function can be set loose on with interesting results.

Celente does speak about social trends a lot, by the way. He thinks that a major depression would bring about a resurgence of elaborate grooming and presenting oneself at one's best, for example.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. His choice of prediction just seems a little odd for me, coming from an INFp.

Well, it's difficult. That's a reason to be sceptical, but also a reason to be impressed when a person repeatedly manages to predict correctly. Celente's track record is far from perfect, but it's quite good in comparison to that of others.

Besides, if your type is INFj like you claim, this may simply be a case of you devaluing Ni or some other function these guys use when making predictions (some Ti is probably involved).

I wouldn't say devaluing Ni, but not seeing the point in making these predictions (maybe that's devaluing Ni, lol). Things of that scale are going to happen regardless of you pointing them out, you can't control fate, imo. You might as well just take things as they come, rather than anticipating something you have no actual control over, but that's just me .

[krieger]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which a person could profit from positioning themselves in the world (and in the financial markets particularly) based on the perception of trends like these. If you hedge yourself properly against a massive depression like the one he is predicting, you could be like John D. Rockefeller buying up assets that are devalued relative to your hedge. The rewards of getting these predictions right and positioning yourself accordingly are not really in question.

[EyeSeeCold]

Jimi Hendrix - The Visionary Artist

[Lobo]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which a person could profit from positioning themselves in the world (and in the financial markets particularly) based on the perception of trends like these. If you hedge yourself properly against a massive depression like the one he is predicting, you could be like John D. Rockefeller buying up assets that are devalued relative to your hedge. The rewards of getting these predictions right and positioning yourself accordingly are not really in question.

Yeah, it does help the individual if they trust on an accurate prediction, but I wonder if it would have a negative effect on the collective when everyone knows (or takes heed) about the trend, as opposed to just a few people. I've heard that this is true of the stock market, in that it's better for the collective if people act normally in the face of an impending drop, rather than try to get themselves in a better position. But, that's another topic.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm very visionary. I usually know when something bad is gonna happen before other people do. I'm extremely intuitive. I kinda know what something is gonna before it happens (esp. if it's a negative thing), that's why I don't do much.... I need to be surprised, but I rarely am, because I know what's gonna happen. So, I tend to just sit and do nothing and write stories instead.

I just don't understand the mentality of the typical black dude 'real world' physical str8 man jock that does a million external things 'just to try it out' and goes crazy living in the world. I know it builds up a certain uhh 'hardness' and physical presence, but it also seems rather pointless. You know?

However, I miss the physical smells and the ambiance of some certain experiences. But it's more like I purely crave those things one at a time. It doesn't seem 'all over the map' to me like it does in some other people.... I just kinda think about it a lot until I gain up the energy to do it (or not, often times just dreaming/thinking is enough) when I really want something it's almost like I myself become that something.

people are just different. I know most people would self-destruct if they were me. They wouldn't be able to handle doing nothing and the raw meaningness I need to create my art with.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Again, not all Ni/Se types are like that, some will become wise enough to realize that human lives and values are more important than their lofty ideals about the future.

Whateveeeer. How can you say that human values are more important than human ideals? They're essentially the same thing. It all boils down to: The world is cruel, you can get away with being an asshole. And then some. It's really nonpunishable for somebody to be the most selfish, greedy, horrible person in the world. The real question is: Can you be something different, despite knowing that?

Also human lives aren't really important I don't think. Why do you say that? What makes a human life intrinsically important. I think it would be better for the earth's balance if most humans were eradicated. Look around. Everybody is drugged up, shooting each other- or shooting themselves. They reproduce just to pass their bigoted, neurotic views on their offspring.

But that's why we have the ideals because the world is actually that cruel and unkind, to try and thrust it to a better spot. Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it's intrinsically wrong. It's just ideal. it's just something that 'would be nice' but hasn't happened yet. But it doesn't mean that it can't ever happen....

That to me is a lot more sane and 'realistic' than saying human lives are important. They really aren't naturally...that's just what people tell themselves to make themselves feel good and 'important.' But ideals are just sort of a natural progress.

It's like 'how can you get from point A to point B if you always stay stuck in the 'reality' and 'sameness' of it all? it's like somebody going 'women and gays shouldn't have equal rights to straight men, that's just TOO IDEAL FAKE AND FAGGY. LET'S ALL GET A REAL JOB AND JUST PRETEND THAT SOCIAL PROBLEMS DON'T EXIST DUR DUR. EYES CLOSED, HEAD IN THE SAND LIKE LITTLE OSTRICHES.' But no, people instead eventually tend to 'wide the wave of ideals' and see how we're all better off for it. That might sound 'feel good' but I still don't think human lives are 'important' I just think that we're naturally made to evolve and grow. And the ideals is the main pure progressive force behind that.

((btw I'm not really angry I just like to argue. =p))

[Singu]

Whateveeeer. How can you say that human values are more important than human ideals? They're essentially the same thing. It all boils down to: The world is cruel, you can get away with being an asshole. And then some. It's really nonpunishable for somebody to be the most selfish, greedy, horrible person in the world. The real question is: Can you be something different, despite knowing that?

Also human lives aren't really important I don't think. Why do you say that? What makes a human life intrinsically important. I think it would be better for the earth's balance if most humans were eradicated. Look around. Everybody is drugged up, shooting each other- or shooting themselves. They reproduce just to pass their bigoted, neurotic views on their offspring.

But that's why we have the ideals because the world is actually that cruel and unkind, to try and thrust it to a better spot. Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it's intrinsically wrong. It's just ideal. it's just something that 'would be nice' but hasn't happened yet. But it doesn't mean that it can't ever happen....

That to me is a lot more sane and 'realistic' than saying human lives are important. They really aren't naturally...that's just what people tell themselves to make themselves feel good and 'important.' But ideals are just sort of a natural progress.

Well, what I mean by human values is something like that we are all intrinsically human, we all have human values and we all deserve to have our values respected. We all have the right to live, voice our opinions, pursuit happiness, respect, safety, shelter and all that. We are all basically... human, and we all want to be treated and treat others the same way we want to be treated. We all don't want to be the victim of a crime or abuse any more than others. Ideals are important... but they can also be misguided and destructive. Like... saying that suicide bombing is justified on the ground on that it represented an "ideal". Or... people like Jared Lautner might genuinely believe that he was doing a "good" by putting all the attention on him by killing a bunch of innocent people. These are extreme examples, and needless to say... these actions are clearly misguided. When people and their values are sacrificed for the "greater good"... then I think that becomes a problem.

So... what you're speaking of is a sort of a Machiavellian, "jungle-world" philosophy. Might makes right. Everybody is essentially a hypocrite. You can do as you please, as long as you are not caught. No real values exist. Which is actually pretty darn disturbing, actually... but anyway, I'm sure that you don't really mean what you say. And we're forgetting that we don't want to be cheated any more than others. We all essentially have the same wishes as others. A person with a disregard for others is treated the same in kind. A killer who doesn't want to be killed may be killed for the reason that we all don't want to be killed. It's much more beneficial and easier to cooperate in the spirit of mutuality than thinking that we are entitled to all.

So... can we not see even the simplest of the cause-and-effect relations? Are we so blind to even the most basic consequences of our actions...? Are we so arrogant to assume that we have the "luck on our sides"... that we are entitled to anything, that we can "get away" or "get by" things without getting caught, without having to face the consequences?

[Ave]

A third that I think is worth mentioning is Karl Marx. It is rather strange and dubious thing that people are so strongly inclined to slap the ENTp label on this guy given that he has been dead for more than a century and most of the information available about him is at least as old. This kind of certainty doesn't fit the epistemic difficulty in establishing his type. ...

Which you then proceed in "establishing".

[krieger]

Wrong. I create a situation of greater stochasticism by suggesting an alternative. My presentation is not set in stone. It simply demonstrates what it looks like when someone makes the case for that typing.

[Ave]

Ok, so does my response which is simply saying that that typing can be discounted as well.

[krieger]

Cool; we're on the same page, then.

[Ave]

[krieger]

Hugh Hendry;


Another pristine example of this INFp archetype.