On the effect of I/E shift on the taciturn and narrator cycles

[Trevor]

Gulenko's blog entry of 22.10.2010.

http://goul.socionics.kiev.ua/2010/1...li-nevyigodno/

This question is not just interesting but also practically important. In real life it happens that a person is forced to work not in their stereotype environment, but contrary to their type or related. By which model of behavior should he/she navigate then?

The answer is this. In the opposite type of environment it's favorable to act on the Adaptation(temperament??) equivalent unit (equivalent to the shift to "superego"). And in a related setting it's favorable to act on the dual temperament i.e. Semidual or Illusory offset should be preferred.

For example, an INTj, once in a management setting, will be prone to decentralize and devolve/delegate authority the same way an ESTj would. But an INTp, by contrast, will develop authoritarianism, like ESTp would. An ENFj in a social environment, to gain a foothold there, will be prone to moralization, like ISFj would. But an ENFp will go towards accommodating, the same thing ISFp does.

But why our offseted INTj doesn't act according to the temperament of identity, that is, like an ISTj or INFj? After all, it would seem justified by the fact that it is not necessary to change the balanced energy.

Apparently, somehow the criterion of "Taciturn - Narrator" comes into play, nature whichof is as much energetic/energy related (??). I've talked about this more than once on several conferences of the International Socionics Institute. The fact is that if an INTj is to chose ISTj (or INFj) strategy he/she would have to switch on Taciturn/Narrator (as well as Negativism for Positivism), which is very energetically expensive.

Of course, I haven't recklessly discarded the alternative hypothesis - an offset on a Benefit cycle, where "Taciturn-Narrator" would stay the same. In this case, an INTj in administrative setting would act ISTp-like, and in the humanitharian setting he/she would act INFp-like. However, what to do with Rationality/Irrationality? Even before it was known that this trait is highly correlated with compatibility at a close range, and so changing its polarity would be equivalent to the loss of recharge from the outside. My opinion is that such a shift, ie benefit ring offset, or supervision perhaps, is possible, but rather volatile/unstable and very difficult. And therefore, unjustified.

As an example, I point attention towards growth of aluminum tycoon Oleg Deripaskiy. More about his psychological features can be learned from a documentary film by Alexei Pivovarov - "Capital ". Based on non-verbal cues and judgments of style, I've typed Deripaskiy as ISTj, the Inspector.

By tracking his activities, we see a clear shift in the direction of ENTj. In other words, something unintelligible, (the Inspector has the makings of a dominant place as a successful entrepreneur. Thus is formed and then fastened one or the other subtype. Overcoming difficulties, some people are mitigated, while others are hardened. From the same type basis - completely different persons.)
---------------------------

Interesting, wooohooo.

[krieger]

i am 100% in alignment with Gulenko on this.

[tcaudilllg]

Consistent with my experience as well. I remember when my INTJ mom took an MBTI test and scored ESTJ. She immediately concluded that there was something wrong with how she was relating to her work, that a part of herself so important had been compromised by environmental pressures. But she does do the delegation thing decently well... although unlike an ESTJ, she ended up doing the lions share of the work herself, where an ESTJ would probably just restrict themselves to the management end.

But Lab this is interesting, because you seem to be questioning model A itself at this point. However, I do resist making plans that specifically involve other people, unless they ask me for direction.

[Trevor]

These taciturn narrator cycles work like a charm when it comes to people who are a mixed subtypes. aka balanced subtypes. The others? What about the others?

[EyeSeeCold]

These taciturn narrator cycles work like a charm when it comes to people who are a mixed subtypes. aka balanced subtypes.

Agreed. I'm a believer. Took me a while though.

[FDG]

Yeah, it's good. Now that I've had time to observationally digest the matter, it seems to work perfectly.

[Aiss]

So there's a claim of superficial type "change" happening depending on circumstances:

For example, an INTj, once in a management setting, will be prone to decentralize and devolve/delegate authority the same way an ESTj would. But an INTp, by contrast, will develop authoritarianism, like ESTp would. An ENFj in a social environment, to gain a foothold there, will be prone to moralization, like ISFj would. But an ENFp will go towards accommodating, the same thing ISFp does.

And relations within each cycle happen to be mirage, semi-dual, super-ego (with super-ego always being opposite each other in a cycle).

From socionics masks article:

Semi-dual
This "mask" is associated with learning problems.

Mirage
This "mask" is associated with the problem of inner freedom: restraint, the inability to make an independent move, stress, escape from reality into a world of illusions. Internal stress accumulates in the person, which he does not know how to manage. As a consequence, he creates a tense atmosphere for others, withdraws into the world of illusions: computer communication, which replaces real life, or computer games, the feeling of being lost, disconnected from reality.

Super-ego
This "mask" is associated with the problem of survival. The person does not live freely, but "survives" and does what he "must", not comparing this with his strengths and abilities. No balance of work and rest necessary for recuperation.

I didn't go through each pair to see how it matches, but at the first look it seems like the same thing might be the source of both. One interpretation might be more accurate still, of course, for example it might be that cycles are "closed", that is, only three of those masks ever happen, or that cycles only show the most popular masks while all are possible.

[EyeSeeCold]

I'm stuck between :

ENFj-INTj-ESTj-ISFj-ENFj (taciturn, rational, negativist cycle or "temperament")
INFp-ENTp-ISTp-ESFp-INFp (taciturn, irrational, positivist cycle or "temperament")
ISTj-ESFj-INFj-ENTj-ISTj (narrator, rational, positivist cycle or "temperament")
ESTp-ISFp-ENFp-INTp-ESTp (narrator, irrational, negativist cycle or "temperament")

And :

ENFj-ESFp-ESTj-ENTp-ENFj (Process, Extravert, Taciturn cycle)
ISTj-INTp-INFj-ISFp-ISTj (Process, Introvert, Narrator cycle)
ESTp-ENTj-ENFp-ESFj-ESTp (Result, Extravert, Tactiturn cycle)
INFp-ISFj-ISTp-INTj-INFp (Result, Introvert, Narrator cycle)

There's no conclusive evidence to suggest either one over the other.

[EyeSeeCold]

Gulenko's blog entry of 22.10.2010.

http://goul.socionics.kiev.ua/2010/1...li-nevyigodno/

He elaborated:

http://socioniko.net/ru/articles/thes02.html

EDIT: Well it came before the blog entry, but still is an elaboration.

[717495]

quadra m, a-d, value 1-8 (a-d)!
verg style: a / b, g / d, a / d, g / b -- narrator cycle, R1 => S2 => I1 => P2...
rl style: a / g, b / d, a / d, b / d -- taciturn cycle, L1 => T2 => F1 => E2...
style: inverse -- IJ => IP => EP => EJ => IJ2 => IP2...

(verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch)) =>
verg style ~ ch(irn)! +, rl style ~ irn(ch) -, or (verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch))...
*product of quadra m, a-d => value 1-8 (a-d)!

-
irn1 ILE, EII, IEI, LIE (Nx1, (Fx1/Lx1)!)
ch1 ESI, LSE, SLE, SEI (Nx2, (Fx2/Lx2)!)
verg style
ext/T ~ narr E(tact L)! => E ~ tact S(narr I)!/ext => ext/S ~ narr R(tact P)!...
int/S ~ tact P(narr R)! => P ~ narr T(tact F)!/int => int/T ~ tact L(narr E)!...
P--A--B--G--D-
1--I--T---P--S-
2--S--E---R--I-
3--L--F---T--P-
4--E--T---F--R-

-
irn2 SLE, ESI, SEI, LSE (Nx3, (Fx3/Lx3)!)
ch2 LSI, ESE, SEE, SLI (Nx4, (Fx4/Lx4)!)
rl style
(ext/T)! ~ narr I(tact S) => E ~ (tact S(narr I)/ext)! => ext/S! ~ narr R(tact P)...
(int/S)! ~ tact P(narr R) => P ~ (narr T(tact F)/int)! => int/T! ~ tact L(narr E)...
P--A--B--G--D-
1--L--E---T--R-
2--E--T---F--P-
3--I--L---R--S-
4--S--T---P--I-

[EyeSeeCold]

quadra m, a-d, value 1-8 (a-d)!
verg style: a / b, g / d, a / d, g / b -- narrator cycle, R1 => S2 => I1 => P2...
rl style: a / g, b / d, a / d, b / d -- taciturn cycle, L1 => T2 => F1 => E2...
style: inverse -- IJ => IP => EP => EJ => IJ2 => IP2...

(verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch)) =>
verg style ~ ch(irn)! +, rl style ~ irn(ch) -, or (verg style / ch(irn)! ) ~ (rl style / irn(ch))...
*product of quadra m, a-d => value 1-8 (a-d)!

-
irn1 ILE, EII, IEI, LIE (Nx1, (Fx1/Lx1)!)
ch1 ESI, LSE, SLE, SEI (Nx2, (Fx2/Lx2)!)
verg style
ext/T ~ narr E(tact L)! => E ~ tact S(narr I)!/ext => ext/S ~ narr R(tact P)!...
int/S ~ tact P(narr R)! => P ~ narr T(tact F)!/int => int/T ~ tact L(narr E)!...
P--A--B--G--D-
1--I--T---P--S-
2--S--E---R--I-
3--L--F---T--P-
4--E--T---F--R-

-
irn2 SLE, ESI, SEI, LSE (Nx3, (Fx3/Lx3)!)
ch2 LSI, ESE, SEE, SLI (Nx4, (Fx4/Lx4)!)
rl style
(ext/T)! ~ narr I(tact S) => E ~ (tact S(narr I)/ext)! => ext/S! ~ narr R(tact P)...
(int/S)! ~ tact P(narr R) => P ~ (narr T(tact F)/int)! => int/T! ~ tact L(narr E)...
P--A--B--G--D-
1--L--E---T--R-
2--E--T---F--P-
3--I--L---R--S-
4--S--T---P--I-

huh

[Trevor]

it looks beautiful