Marilyn Manson

[HERO]

Marilyn Manson: EIE-Ni, IEI-Ni, or ILE-Ti?

- Arguments for EIE: I’ve seen him in concert once (in addition to my perception of him on the live album “The Last Tour on Earth”) and it’s clear he has a lot of energy, charisma, and confidence [I daresay more than a (typical) IEI like myself (naturally) has.] Plus his ability to make speeches and to be loud and (excessively) daring (a ‘dare-devil’) and reckless, etc. I think rivals the average IEI (on average days).
Something else that might partially denote “Negativism” [in combination with being Evolutionary/Process (thus Dialectical-Algorithmic)] in Manson are song lyrics like “Nothing’s gonna change the world” from the song Lamb of God. These lyrics are somewhat similar to Liz Phair’s lyrics “...Nothing’s gonna change” from the song Love/Hate. Liz Phair might be Ni-ENFj (H-EIE) [ENFj-ISFp].
If Marilyn Manson is EIE, he’d probably be Ni-ENFj. And since quite a few people (including myself) have considered IEI for him, if he’s EIE, a Harmonizing EIE-Ni could make sense. Possibly ENFj-INTp. Last but not least, Marilyn Manson is (also) a “Performer”, an “Actor”, a “Teacher”, an “Orator”, a “Pedagogue”, etc.

- Arguments for IEI: A lot of the characteristics of his personality may at times seem to be more Te-PoLR/Si-Role as opposed to Si-PoLR/Te-Role. Lyrics like, “I’m not attached/To your world/Nothing heals/Nothing grows/’Cause it’s a great big white world/And we are drained of our colors/We used to love ourselves/We used to love another...” seem to denote potential Te-PoLR combined with dominant (Introverted) Intuition.
He seems rather “introverted” in most, if not all, interviews. From what I’ve heard, he probably requires quite a bit of time alone – to paint, to write, etc.

Songs like Disposable Teens (“You say you wanted evolution/The ape was a great big hit/You say you want a revolution, man/And I say that you’re full of s**t”) and Rock is Dead (“Rock is deader than dead/Shock is all in your head/Your sex and your dope is all that we’re fed/So f**k all your protests and put them to bed”) seem to be anti-revolution(s) and anti-protest(s), etc. (Perhaps anti-protest songs in a way). Essentially, kind of cynical, world-weary, skeptical, etc. Yet this attitude can be quite typical of IEI’s, who tend to focus more on the intrapersonal, etc. [personal] and their own (inner) world, as opposed to an excessive emphasis on society, social issues, etc. They may look more to ‘causes’/’origins’ from childhood, birth, etc. or the inner workings of their own psyche, unconscious/subconscious, personality, etc. as opposed to merely the external effects of culture, society, the external/objective world, etc. which tend to be more so the domain/focus of extraverts.
I think that, "It is not the actions and behavior of the good man that must be matched but his point of view. Outer reforms are useless unless the inner state is changed. Success is gained not by imitating the outer actions of the successful but by right inner actions and inner talking... you are what you are by the virtue of the state of consciousness from which you think and view the world.”—Neville Goddard sums it up quite well.
If he is IEI he might be Ni-INFp (Creative subtype) [INFp-ESTp]. Marilyn Manson is (also) a “Romantic,” a “Lyricist,” a “Poet,” a “Writer,” etc.

- Arguments for ILE: Marilyn Manson’s really smart. He doesn’t smile a lot. He’s not a (very) “conventionally” “ethical” person. He (probably) sometimes acts “infantile,” “childish,” “immature,” etc. He’s an intellectual, a genius, an atheist, an eccentric, etc. I’m sure that a lot of the time he doesn’t seem (too) emotionally expressive or “personable.” Marilyn Manson is also a “Seeker,” a “Searcher,” an “Inventor,” etc.
If he is ILE (per Socionix, etc.) he’s Ti-ENTp. If he’s ILE-Ti, I’d say that he’s the Dominant subtype, and ENTp-ENFj.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

He's sensitive, compassionate, and incredibly empathetic. And also one of the most selfish, self-absorbed people you have ever met. (Clearly that's his Dark Side.)

I like him because he always knows how to be an artist and re-invent himself and help people who are in pain.

[Gilly]

IEI

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Agree with Gilly.

[Ave]

Hes not so empathetic as one might think, hes actually well known for hurting the people closest to him. Also, known for hurting those weaker then he is. He cant stand the weak.

That isnt to say I dont like him; I actually a huge fan. He is sensitive, in a fourish kinda way. But its mainly because of his music and art that Im a fan of his.

I dont think hes a thinking type...there just no way. Theres a big difference between how a thinking type deals with people and the way a feeling type does, he is such a feeling type. He too flamboyant to be IEI...EIE is the only thing that fits; he views the world in dark and dramatic colors and sees himself as the "avenging angel" of out to destroy puritanical America. Very beta NF of him. Just he doesnt strike me as IEI, but clearly as EIE.

[jessica129]

I still think he's IEI. If he's EIE, I'll be LSI then because that guy is my dual.

[thePirate]

EIE-Ni, pretty sure of it.

not seeing IEI at all other than very superficially

[Raver]

IMO he's IEI-Ni.

[Singu]

Most definitely Beta NF. I'm leaning towards EIE, but I'm not 100% sure.

I still think he's IEI. If he's EIE, I'll be LSI then because that guy is my dual.

I'm curious, how can an SLI like him? He has too much Fe.

But what I noticed about his Fe in his songs is that he sounds a little restrained, while EIEs typically go "all the way" in their Fe. He sounds more like Cobain.

But still he is probably EIE.

[jessica129]

I'm curious, how can an SLI like him? He has too much Fe.

I don't type myself as SLI anymore. I am much more likely to be ESI.

[Gilly]

Hes not so empathetic as one might think, hes actually well known for hurting the people closest to him. Also, known for hurting those weaker then he is. He cant stand the weak.

These factors are certainly not mutually exclusive; any of them, at all. I would say that very empathetic people who endure a lot of repression or emotional hardship are very likely to be calloused, and perhaps, at times, even deliberately cruel towards those who are closest to them, because they represent the biggest threat.

That isnt to say I dont like him; I actually a huge fan. He is sensitive, in a fourish kinda way. But its mainly because of his music and art that Im a fan of his.

Same. But damn yo, that interview from Bowling for Columbine...damn.

I dont think hes a thinking type...there just no way. Theres a big difference between how a thinking type deals with people and the way a feeling type does, he is such a feeling type.

I agree. Everything about him screams ethical type; he's like an open wound. All of his music is social commentary, and a good chunk of it carries implicit criticism of the way people are dehumanized by the system. I don't think an ILE would object openly for the same reasons; their critiques are usually less holistic and more deconstructive. Manson is a classic Beta sx/so type: embodying the result or end-product of what he sees as wrong with the world. Reminds me of the guy from Watchman, the Comedian. It's a pretty easily discernible theme in many artists who are flamboyantly critical of the system and wistfully extol their place in it; Amanda Palmer is another one.

I think there are actually parallels to be drawn between Manson and Palmer, both behaviorally and artistically. They talk the exact same way.

He too flamboyant to be IEI

lol oxymoron much?

...EIE is the only thing that fits; he views the world in dark and dramatic colors and sees himself as the "avenging angel" of out to destroy puritanical America. Very beta NF of him. Just he doesnt strike me as IEI, but clearly as EIE.

He is hugely Beta, everything is dramatic and critical and dark and violent and grotesque...etc. I won't rule out EIE-Ni as a possible type, he definitely carries a kind of composure belying seething grossness that is typical There may be reasons to think he is extroverted, but IEI-Ni is my main guess for now.

[Ave]

lol oxymoron much?

Lol, I dont think IEIs are that flamboyant compared to EIEs. IEIs are more subtle in their way of dressing and generally leave it to the SLEs to play dress up, create dismeasured elements on a scene etc, whereas EIEs are readily willing to do these things themselves. That isnt to say an IEI cant be flamboyant, but even when they are it seems toned down and their taste seems balanced because of role. EIEs can be non flamboyant but when they are it is obivous they lack a sense of harmony and love of fashion that IEIs have. IEIs have a better chance of getting accepted by the fashion community - Manson doesnt seem to dress or act in favor of any kind of role at all.

[717495]

He seems obviously Ne and ENTp to me, like he's trying to catch quick or witty associations or make connections, be silly or give off something novel and surprising. Also by his demeanor you see a judicious type, EP yet very outwardly settled. Not sure where this Beta NF idea comes from, sound very ill-informed.




Compare to Ni in INFps







ENFjs like all F types are not necessarily dramatic and over the top in certain moments, but are consistently emotional and affective which can be spotted as an Fe type by their immediate presence or especially in other words, their way of ethical connection.

Best learned by examples. Please revel in the Fe of male ENFjs I will provide for you and accept this as a kind of lesson on Fe:


Emotivity is not Fe, but a biproduct of this function! Everything you read is just a description of an account; not the only source.

This here is an example of silly extreme behavior, but where there is also an affective and ethical connection. The former is not related to any type. So the medium for behavior becomes engrained around, in Fe's case, the other person, the interviewer:

Here is Fe with a more focused and principled tinge. It's not really a tinge; anyone can be like this, it's a sign of focus and intelligence:



Really the most obvious way, looking at this forum, that one can possibly confuse an ENTp for ENFj is if ethics of the type is not taken into consideration, which is precisely what's going on. Confusing art and dramaticism for someone's actual type, it's a bad way to start out, and really, based off some vague quadra description that has no other backing and is taken too literally for what it actually is (since not every one out of four or sixteen is like this) vs. real examples of individuals. Which are you going to chose and would you like to see more examples of ENTps? that is the question. Please rewatch and recycle this information if you disagree.

[thePirate]

He seems obviously Ne and ENTp to me, like he's trying to catch quick or witty associations or make connections, be silly or give off something novel and surprising. Also by his demeanor you see a judicious type, EP yet very outwardly settled. Not sure where this Beta NF idea comes from, sound very ill-informed.

Really the most obvious way, looking at this forum, that one can possibly confuse an ENTp for ENFj is if ethics of the type is not taken into consideration, which is precisely what's going on. Confusing art and dramaticism for someone's actual type, it's a bad way to start out, and really, based off some vague quadra description that has no other backing and is taken too literally for what it actually is (since not every one out of four or sixteen is like this) vs. real examples of individuals. Which are you going to chose and would you like to see more examples of ENTps? that is the question. Please rewatch and recycle this information if you disagree.

You should give up socionics.

How do you even know the people you have typed are typed correctly? You treat your typings as an objective benchmark when they are highly questionable and usually radically different than other people's typings of that same person. Your impressions of being 'witty/trying to come off as novel and surprising' aren't good reasons for typing someone as Ne dominant. By associating superficial impressions with functions instead of looking for cognitive focus, you are setting yourself up for misconceptions and bias, which your posts tend to be riddled with.

Again, I suggest you humble yourself a little bit and maybe learn more of what each function actually is and what it encompasses. Marilyn Manson shows no signs of NeTi in his ego, not the energy, not the mannerisms, not anything. If you think he is focused on intuition of possiblities, you need to watch a couple of more interviews, maybe listen to a couple of his songs. Im assuming you are going to ignore or try to bypass a discussion on this with me since you don't actually have any substantial reasons for typing someone a certain type, but next time you might as well save yourself the trouble of assessing someone if its going to be half-assed. Pull a type out of a hat or something.

[The Ineffable]

How can you be certain of the subtypes without being certain of the main type?

I don't believe in subtypes, but I guess he means that "if he is <this type>, than he is <this subtype>", because that's the only way he could fit that type (the way agape sees it). The same way one could say "if he is Ni, then he is Beta NF", for instance when one's personality betrays unvalued Te/Fi.

Consider that one can be certain of three type by excluding with confidence the other 5...

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't believe in subtypes, but I guess he means that "if he is <this type>, than he is <this subtype>", because that's the only way he could fit that type (the way agape sees it). The same way one could say "if he is Ni, then he is Beta NF", for instance when one's personality betrays unvalued Te/Fi.

Consider that one can be certain of three type by excluding with confidence the other 5...

Yeah, though that makes them justifications, not precise typings, and justification through subtyping is misguided. It should be fully feasible to type a person according to the main types.

[The Ineffable]

Yeah, though that makes them justifications, not precise typings, and justification through subtyping is misguided. It should be fully feasible to type a person according to the main types.

You are right, I'm sorry

[717495]

Hey pirate, I noticed your post because I was signed out on my friends computer. Usually I have you on ignore, and for a good reason. Just gotta say you're the person equating someone like Johnny Depp as similar or same type to Marilyn Manson. Until you read Jung and start making sense I might consider unblocking you.

[Gilly]

The guy is obvious alpha to me, maybe stereotypically beta NF like every artist is on this forum.

Any chance you'll ever be more than a tally mark with an inferiority complex?

[woofwoofl]

The extensive usage of polarities in his lyrics (hate/love, weak/strong, Marilyn(Monroe)/Manson(Charles)), hit me as an indicator of Dialectical-Algoritmic, until I noticed BnD (to the largest extent), hitta, and many other IEIs doing it on here. I can't throw them all into EIE...

Past that, this one's a hard as shit call for me to make; on cam, he did strike me as vaguely ILE, but not strongly, and I still need a shit ton more to go off of; this is as good a reason as any to get The Long Hard Road Out of Hell finally...

[The Ineffable]

The extensive usage of polarities in his lyrics (hate/love, weak/strong, Marilyn(Monroe)/Manson(Charles)), hit me as an indicator of Dialectical-Algoritmic, until I noticed BnD (to the largest extent), hitta, and many other IEIs doing it on here. I can't throw them all into EIE...

Yeah it's a Ni fetish. You know, angel&demon, haven&hell, to be or not to be, black and white, dead or alive... IME it sounds cool to them, impressive. BTW, once an IEI woman told me that this world was created from love and hate, and she was meaning it :|.

[Gilly]

Jake I'm curious why you post this passage about Ti, it seems almost antithetical to Manson's real attitude. While a lot of his lyrics are about mechanization and dehumanization, he himself takes a rather self-important, preaching social role that is diametrically opposed to how Jungs passage describes the Ti type's psychic relation to society: Manson is flamboyant and mocking rather than unassuming and disengaged. He certainly seems like something of a social trickster, which I suppose seems stereotypical of ILEs, but if you watch, say, the TV interviews of Manson etc al, you can tell that he takes this almost sadistic pleasure in having his ideas questioned and causing tension while he remains calm, controlled, and deliberately appearing indifferent. He relishes in the negative attention and in maintaining his poise in its face; this is classic Beta Se+Fe.

[DividedsGhost]

Jake I'm curious why you post this passage about Ti, it seems almost antithetical to Manson's real attitude. While a lot of his lyrics are about mechanization and dehumanization, he himself takes a rather self-important, preaching social role that is diametrically opposed to how Jungs passage describes the Ti type's psychic relation to society: Manson is flamboyant and mocking rather than unassuming and disengaged. He certainly seems like something of a social trickster, which I suppose seems stereotypical of ILEs, but if you watch, say, the TV interviews of Manson etc al, you can tell that he takes this almost sadistic pleasure in having his ideas questioned and causing tension while he remains calm, controlled, and deliberately appearing indifferent. He relishes in the negative attention and in maintaining his poise in its face; this is classic Beta Se+Fe.

I pretty much feel you explained him well. For what my opinion might be worth, I don't know if I'd go so far personally as to say this is a beta role of being contently iconoclastic, because he is primarily trying to entertain.

I pretty much think it fundamental that you wouldn't find a thinker taking on such role and that the way he does it is in service of Ni. And then it would seem odd to imply an LSI or SLE being very content in such a role. And the way he entertains seems in service of neurotic Se impulses, something an IEI would be less prone to...unless we're talking about someone balanced on introversion and extroversion, which we are; so IEI or EIE is kind of going to be same meaning here for him, I feel.

Maybe because his entertaining style is so heavy on a neurotic Se of impulses rather than the hysteria of Ti, it makes more theoretical sense to say he's an extrovert? Or whatever, I just wanted to say I thought what you said was accurate, so yeah.

[HERO]

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/bla...wsitemID=27587

MARILYN MANSON has told the U.K.'s Mirror.co.uk that he disapproved of the scruffy tracksuit Britney Spears wore for her controversial marriage to Kevin Federline.

"I found that really terrible," he said, "Ultimately, I suppose it's whatever makes you happy.

"But I do have an old-fashioned sense of tradition — although it's not always what everyone might find conventional. If you're going to do something like getting married, it should have a sense of celebration to it. It should be grand — it doesn't have to be in tracksuits!"


"I totally believe in monogamy with the right person," he said.

"I do want lots of kids, too, but not any time soon. Ultimately, that's how you make yourself immortal — by passing down your ideas and values to your children."

[Gilly]

He seems obviously Ne and ENTp to me, like he's trying to catch quick or witty associations or make connections, be silly or give off something novel and surprising. Also by his demeanor you see a judicious type, EP yet very outwardly settled. Not sure where this Beta NF idea comes from, sound very ill-informed.

Please, do your best to be childishly bitter and vainly resent having ingenuous intellectual engagement forced on you. I already know you would rather trail blindly.

I don't see how Manson is EP or extroverted at all. He seems completely IP to me; he has a casual poise like all IEIs, but offstage he doesn't really go out of his way to put on a persona in interviews and such, he is just frank and his speech is controlled but lightly colored in a way that reminds me of Beta NFs like strrrng and Amanda Palmer.

ENFjs like all F types are not necessarily dramatic and over the top in certain moments, but are consistently emotional and affective which can be spotted as an Fe type by their immediate presence or especially in other words, their way of ethical connection.

If you watch Manson he is not deliberately affective, like an extrovert, but rather casually so. This is typical if IEIs.

[/quote]Best learned by examples. Please revel in the Fe of male ENFjs I will provide for you and accept this as a kind of lesson on Fe:[/quote]

LOL Jesus christ, your cure for low self esteem is a raging inferiority complex? Are you actually trying to self-actualize or are you just waving Jung around like a pretty flag?

Really the most obvious way, looking at this forum, that one can possibly confuse an ENTp for ENFj is if ethics of the type is not taken into consideration, which is precisely what's going on. Confusing art and dramaticism for someone's actual type, it's a bad way to start out, and really, based off some vague quadra description that has no other backing and is taken too literally for what it actually is (since not every one out of four or sixteen is like this) vs. real examples of individuals. Which are you going to chose and would you like to see more examples of ENTps?

An INTERESTING sidelong shot. Funny that most people type me EIE precisely BECAUSE I seem Fe dominant.

Art is usually a bad starting place, yet when considered along with the artist's consistent personal style and aesthetic, and their apparent motivations, it can be revealing, especially when the artist is consciously delivering a message from his or her personal life in art, which, if you read Manson's autobiography, you will see is very much the case.

And YES, I'd love to see an ILE who is comparable to Manson.

that is the question. Please rewatch and recycle this information if you disagree.

"If you don't think like me yet, read my words over and over until you do!"

[Gilly]

Idk, personally I think he comes across as much too introverted to have that factor outweighed by his fashion.