Marilyn Manson

[0i0]

ISFp.

He VIs like SEI-, he clearly values and promotes self-expression () and subjective sensation (). He is critical of American society, which is very gamma/LIE. His criticism of American society is largely directed at religious fundies though, which I don't associate with LIE or NTs in general. He is not fundamentally anti-American, but he hates how American society stifles his persona and self-expression (according to him). I think he is the opposite of gamma, where gammas wanna be productive in real world scenarios ( and ) he wants to express himself () in a subjective way ( and ).

His enneagram: 4w5 sx

I'm still studying the functions, so I might be very wrong here, but isn't Si something that would be the opposite of making everything and everyone uncomfortable, being outrageous, morbid and grotesque using scary and horrifying images etc.? Basically helping one, to have a comfortable inner environment, not only based on physicalities, but in an emotional or psychological way too?

I saw mentioning how Si egos often try to avoid disturbing elements due to this, and I know this is not really a statistically relevant pattern (one person), but I remember how an ESE friend of mine also mentioned once how he was afraid of disturbing things, and often wanted to help me to get out of my room when I spent 3 days in a row reading about the most obscure and horrifying things, offered me a drink, a hug, and took me to a place with fluffy cats. Which I'm not sure I really need, but it makes him very happy, and it's a way he shows his care towards his friends.

Or did you think this is exactly what Manson is against, and using these images in an ironic way? I'm happy to listen to your reasoning, as I said, I don't know a lot about Si really (yet).

[Ave]

I'm still studying the functions, so I might be very wrong here, but isn't Si something that would be the opposite of making everything and everyone uncomfortable, being outrageous, morbid and grotesque using scary and horrifying images etc.? Basically helping one, to have a comfortable inner environment, not only based on physicalities, but in an emotional or psychological way too?

I saw mentioning how Si egos often try to avoid disturbing elements due to this, and I know this is not really a statistically relevant pattern (one person), but I remember how an ESE friend of mine also mentioned once how he was afraid of disturbing things, and often wanted to help me to get out of my room when I spent 3 days in a row reading about the most obscure and horrifying things, offered me a drink, a hug, and took me to a place with fluffy cats. Which I'm not sure I really need, but it makes him very happy, and it's a way he shows his care towards his friends.

Or did you think this is exactly what Manson is against, and using these images in an ironic way? I'm happy to listen to your reasoning, as I said, I don't know a lot about Si really (yet).

Yes, I certainly think there is an ironic element to his imagery. For example, when using guns and violent imagery in his performances, he's not glorifying these things but underlining America's obsessions with guns, not because he's anti-gun ownership per se (though he could be, idk), but because he feels there is hypocrisy in the way some Americans blame "bad guys" yet contribute to their existence. For example, with the Columbine shootings, he was blamed by Chirstian conservatives for pushing the shooters to act, but he's trying to tell these people that they are looking for a devil, a scapegoat to blame whenever something goes wrong, basically blame falls on the outcasts and never on those things truly responsible, for example, advertising to instill fear of not being "one of the crowd" if you don't this or that product, willful ignorance, the fact that the shooters were bullied and ostracized, and politicains who blame him and other artists for supposedly pushing shooters to act, while they don't take responsibility because they want their voters to keep voting for them.

That being said, I never looked at the question of this way. People who like disturbing things and imagery are (much) more rare than those who don't. Most people like comfort in an emotional and psycholigical way, myself included, and I'm polr, though I think there are varying thresholds of what people consider "horrible".

You raise an interesting point, though I myself haven't explored the question enough to really address it.

[0i0]

Yes, I certainly think there is an ironic element to his imagery. For example, when using guns and violent imagery in his performances, he's not glorifying these things but underlining America's obsessions with guns, not because he's anti-gun ownership per se (though he could be, idk), but because he feels there is hypocrisy in the way some Americans blame "bad guys" yet contribute to their existence. For example, with the Columbine shootings, he was blamed by Chirstian conservatives for pushing the shooters to act, but he's trying to tell these people that they are looking for a devil, a scapegoat to blame whenever something goes wrong, basically blame falls on the outcasts and never on those things truly responsible, for example, advertising to instill fear of not being "one of the crowd" if you don't this or that product, willful ignorance, the fact that the shooters were bullied and ostracized, and politicains who blame him and other artists for supposedly pushing shooters to act, while they don't take responsibility because they want their voters to keep voting for them.

That being said, I never looked at the question of this way. People who like disturbing things and imagery are (much) more rare than those who don't. Most people like comfort in an emotional and psycholigical way, myself included, and I'm polr, though I think there are varying thresholds of what people consider "horrible".

You raise an interesting point, though I myself haven't explored the question enough to really address it.

Oh, no, I agree with how he is making ironic points (for example even his name picking, Marilyn Manson, celebrities and serial killers both treated as superstars etc.) I think I was trying to ask if even these pictures, not the Disney-ears, not the guns, or crosses, but the darkness, the weird, distorted images he uses you think would be ironic - because I see them more like self-expressing, artistic elements. Of course they can walk hand in hand too.

In his journal he also seemed to jump into a way of living, that consisted of hellish and horrible conditions, involving pretty amoral and chaotic shit (this could be caused by many other factors too, of course, one being that he wanted to experience the exact opposite of the Christian childhood and environment that he was living in before). I feel his dark imagery is more of a self-expression, not only a way to mock Stepford Wives, but showing his own darkness as well. But I think you have a point besides the whole society agenda he is against - he became what people fear the most. In that, I can see myself (even more, when I was a teenager), similar to a "okay, you are afraid of your darkness, I will become yours, and at the same time I will show the beauty of it).

What I was wondering of, would Si doms be more prone to avoid these types of mental imageries and states of mind, or am I totally misunderstanding what an Si dom is? I know all these typology systems are about generalizations, but I still feel weird about asking a question straight up like this, as this can be based on so many other factors, haha. I guess I'm wondering about the official (?) viewpoint on Si, which I'm sure doesn't exist in the end.

I should probably read more about the function though.

[Xaiviay]

I'm still studying the functions, so I might be very wrong here, but isn't Si something that would be the opposite of making everything and everyone uncomfortable, being outrageous, morbid and grotesque using scary and horrifying images etc.? Basically helping one, to have a comfortable inner environment, not only based on physicalities, but in an emotional or psychological way too?

I saw mentioning how Si egos often try to avoid disturbing elements due to this, and I know this is not really a statistically relevant pattern (one person), but I remember how an ESE friend of mine also mentioned once how he was afraid of disturbing things, and often wanted to help me to get out of my room when I spent 3 days in a row reading about the most obscure and horrifying things, offered me a drink, a hug, and took me to a place with fluffy cats. Which I'm not sure I really need, but it makes him very happy, and it's a way he shows his care towards his friends.

Or did you think this is exactly what Manson is against, and using these images in an ironic way? I'm happy to listen to your reasoning, as I said, I don't know a lot about Si really (yet).

I feel you're right to think that most SEIs wouldn't go for such a disconcerting style, but a disturbed or traumatized SEI might. If that's what they're internal state is feeling all the time, it can be kind of theraputic to express it on the outside. Plus if he is E4w3 like Kill4Me mentioned, then he would want to embody his sense of self to be true to his individuality, even if it's horrifying.

Still, I think a SEI would find a way to express their disturbing feelings in a way that still turned out beautiful and pleasing, somehow. Maybe more of a 'gothic' aesthetic. Marilyn Manson's style is pretty much just repulsive, there's nothing sublime or soothing about it to look at, period. Wikisocion has him pinned as ILE-Ti: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/26951297749906843/ I'm leaning towards him being the "type inverse of SEI"-ILE. He VIs as ILE, looking past all that makeup. ILEs and SEIs share the same IM values, so it's possible he'd be an ILE trying to supply the Si and Fe parts of his psyche in whatever way he can.

After all, do all sociotypes really pursue their strongest/most talented ego functions? I haven't always, for what my personal experience is worth. I used to test as an NT in myers briggs because I was trying to use my logic and intutition all the time, and other people even thought I was probably NT. In actuality I didn't use logic/intuition very well, but I sure tried. I didn't believe in the value of artistic or expressive abilities, and it took me a long time to realize I was happiest, most natural, and most energized/competent, when using sensing and feeling.

So, an unusually sensuality-concerned and disturbed ILE is my best guess, here

[Ave]

After all, do all sociotypes really pursue their strongest/most talented ego functions? I haven't always, for what my personal experience is worth. I used to test as an NT in myers briggs because I was trying to use my logic and intutition all the time, and other people even thought I was probably NT. In actuality I didn't use logic/intuition very well, but I sure tried. I didn't believe in the value of artistic or expressive abilities, and it took me a long time to realize I was happiest, most natural, and most energized/competent, when using sensing and feeling.

I pretty much agree with this, I myself went through a kind of phase where I valued SF stuff like art and self-expression over my more natural talents in anything NT related, science, finance, strategy etc because I thought the SF stuff more appealing. It took me a while to realize that the art world was too subjective in its valuations of people's talents and everything is a question of which connections you have as a result. This is kind of problematic for a logical type since I like measurable criteria to base my work on.

Anyways, I see where you're coming from with Manson, I find him an enigma to type. SEI was my best guess and it seemed better than beta NF (which is what I used to type Manson as) but maybe something about that doesn't feel right either. I don't know. But I do think that Manson's style being off beat like it is, to say the least, is what makes him hard to type. When you think about it, not many people dress like him, if any at all. This makes people ponder different types from dom to polr, because we don't really know what makes a person dress like him, confidence in or lack of it.

Oh and btw, not to be anal, but the gallery you posted is not wikisocion, it is the Socionix gallery. Wikisocion allwos users to type celebs but I don't believe they have an official stance on celebrities' types.

[Xaiviay]

I pretty much agree with this, I myself went through a kind of phase where I valued SF stuff like art and self-expression over my more natural talents in anything NT related, science, finance, strategy etc because I thought the SF stuff more appealing. It took me a while to realize that the art world was too subjective in its valuations of people's talents and everything is a question of which connections you have as a result. This is kind of problematic for a logical type since I like measurable criteria to base my work on.

Anyways, I see where you're coming from with Manson, I find him an enigma to type. SEI was my best guess and it seemed better than beta NF (which is what I used to type Manson as) but maybe something about that doesn't feel right either. I don't know.

Oh and btw, not to be anal, but the gallery you posted is not wikisocion, it is the Socionix gallery. Wikisocion allwos users to type celebs but I don't believe they have an official stance on celebrities' types.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one here. It makes sense that you might like to try to create more artistic stuff in your life, even though you're naturally gifted in more objective/intuitive areas. I think pretty much all of the IMs are necessary for a fulfilled, happy life, and (for me at least) it's hard living for a long time without the cognitive stimulation that one's dual would provide. So an individual can be naturally drawn to try to supply their weaker functions.

I agree, he is an enigma here. I'm still leaning towards ILE, but it's only my best guess. Beta NF doesn't seem right to me, either. If he's not ILE, then SEI would be my second guess. After that, maaybe I could see some kind of NF for him

Oh I see, so the pin is not really official, then. Thanks for the correction!

[Ave]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one here. It makes sense that you might like to try to create more artistic stuff in your life, even though you're naturally gifted in more objective/intuitive areas. I think pretty much all of the IMs are necessary for a fulfilled, happy life, and (for me at least) it's hard living for a long time without the cognitive stimulation that one's dual would provide. So an individual can be naturally drawn to try to supply their weaker functions.

I agree, he is an enigma here. I'm still leaning towards ILE, but it's only my best guess. Beta NF doesn't seem right to me, either. If he's not ILE, then SEI would be my second guess. After that, maaybe I could see some kind of NF for him

Oh I see, so the pin is not really official, then. Thanks for the correction!

I could see ILE or even LII (for Manson).

Yeah I think it is good to explore things outside of your strong functions, to use all your valued aspects but maybe keep the strong functions for your profession and the weaker ones for hobbies.

I find the Socionix gallery pretty good actually, even if it's not an official wikisocion thing.

[Xaiviay]

I could see ILE or even LII (for Manson).

Yeah I think it is good to explore things outside of your strong functions, to use all your valued aspects but maybe keep the strong functions for your profession and the weaker ones for hobbies.

I find the Socionix gallery pretty good actually, even if it's not an official wikisocion thing.

Oh yeah, LII doesn't seem too far off, either.

Agreed

And that's good to know! I like to look through the Socionix gallery a lot, lol, so I hope it's mostly accurate.

[silke]

I agree, he is an enigma here. I'm still leaning towards ILE, but it's only my best guess. Beta NF doesn't seem right to me, either. If he's not ILE, then SEI would be my second guess. After that, maaybe I could see some kind of NF for him

Well his VI does match him up to ILE.

On the left is Nicolas Cage Ti-ILE sx/sp 7w8 and on the right is Manson without his usual make-up and performance acts. I believe they are almost type identicals with Manson being ILE-Ti sx/so 7w8.