Marilyn Manson

[Ave]

Ok what are your guesses as to Marilyn Manson's type based on VI? My VI knowledge is limited so I wont say much. But we can say a few things about him. First of all, hes an obvious iNtuitive type. The marked traingular shape of his face indicates intuition(correct me if Im wrong, but I read that intuitives types generaly have triangular faces with the jaw narrower than the forehead). Thats all I can say. So to anyone who is interested... what are your guesses?

quotes:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...yn_manson.html
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...Marilyn_Manson

[HERO]

Marilyn Manson: EIE-Ni, IEI-Ni, or ILE-Ti?

- Arguments for EIE: I’ve seen him in concert once (in addition to my perception of him on the live album “The Last Tour on Earth”) and it’s clear he has a lot of energy, charisma, and confidence [I daresay more than a (typical) IEI like myself (naturally) has.] Plus his ability to make speeches and to be loud and (excessively) daring (a ‘dare-devil’) and reckless, etc. I think rivals the average IEI (on average days).
Something else that might partially denote “Negativism” [in combination with being Evolutionary/Process (thus Dialectical-Algorithmic)] in Manson are song lyrics like “Nothing’s gonna change the world” from the song Lamb of God. These lyrics are somewhat similar to Liz Phair’s lyrics “...Nothing’s gonna change” from the song Love/Hate. Liz Phair might be Ni-ENFj (H-EIE) [ENFj-ISFp].
If Marilyn Manson is EIE, he’d probably be Ni-ENFj. And since quite a few people (including myself) have considered IEI for him, if he’s EIE, a Harmonizing EIE-Ni could make sense. Possibly ENFj-INTp. Last but not least, Marilyn Manson is (also) a “Performer”, an “Actor”, a “Teacher”, an “Orator”, a “Pedagogue”, etc.

- Arguments for IEI: A lot of the characteristics of his personality may at times seem to be more Te-PoLR/Si-Role as opposed to Si-PoLR/Te-Role. Lyrics like, “I’m not attached/To your world/Nothing heals/Nothing grows/’Cause it’s a great big white world/And we are drained of our colors/We used to love ourselves/We used to love another...” seem to denote potential Te-PoLR combined with dominant (Introverted) Intuition.
He seems rather “introverted” in most, if not all, interviews. From what I’ve heard, he probably requires quite a bit of time alone – to paint, to write, etc.

Songs like Disposable Teens (“You say you wanted evolution/The ape was a great big hit/You say you want a revolution, man/And I say that you’re full of s**t”) and Rock is Dead (“Rock is deader than dead/Shock is all in your head/Your sex and your dope is all that we’re fed/So f**k all your protests and put them to bed”) seem to be anti-revolution(s) and anti-protest(s), etc. (Perhaps anti-protest songs in a way). Essentially, kind of cynical, world-weary, skeptical, etc. Yet this attitude can be quite typical of IEI’s, who tend to focus more on the intrapersonal, etc. [personal] and their own (inner) world, as opposed to an excessive emphasis on society, social issues, etc. They may look more to ‘causes’/’origins’ from childhood, birth, etc. or the inner workings of their own psyche, unconscious/subconscious, personality, etc. as opposed to merely the external effects of culture, society, the external/objective world, etc. which tend to be more so the domain/focus of extraverts.
I think that, "It is not the actions and behavior of the good man that must be matched but his point of view. Outer reforms are useless unless the inner state is changed. Success is gained not by imitating the outer actions of the successful but by right inner actions and inner talking... you are what you are by the virtue of the state of consciousness from which you think and view the world.”—Neville Goddard sums it up quite well.
If he is IEI he might be Ni-INFp (Creative subtype) [INFp-ESTp]. Marilyn Manson is (also) a “Romantic,” a “Lyricist,” a “Poet,” a “Writer,” etc.

- Arguments for ILE: Marilyn Manson’s really smart. He doesn’t smile a lot. He’s not a (very) “conventionally” “ethical” person. He (probably) sometimes acts “infantile,” “childish,” “immature,” etc. He’s an intellectual, a genius, an atheist, an eccentric, etc. I’m sure that a lot of the time he doesn’t seem (too) emotionally expressive or “personable.” Marilyn Manson is also a “Seeker,” a “Searcher,” an “Inventor,” etc.
If he is ILE (per Socionix, etc.) he’s Ti-ENTp. If he’s ILE-Ti, I’d say that he’s the Dominant subtype, and ENTp-ENFj.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

He's sensitive, compassionate, and incredibly empathetic. And also one of the most selfish, self-absorbed people you have ever met. (Clearly that's his Dark Side.)

I like him because he always knows how to be an artist and re-invent himself and help people who are in pain.

[Gilly]

IEI

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Agree with Gilly.

[Ave]

Hes not so empathetic as one might think, hes actually well known for hurting the people closest to him. Also, known for hurting those weaker then he is. He cant stand the weak.

That isnt to say I dont like him; I actually a huge fan. He is sensitive, in a fourish kinda way. But its mainly because of his music and art that Im a fan of his.

I dont think hes a thinking type...there just no way. Theres a big difference between how a thinking type deals with people and the way a feeling type does, he is such a feeling type. He too flamboyant to be IEI...EIE is the only thing that fits; he views the world in dark and dramatic colors and sees himself as the "avenging angel" of out to destroy puritanical America. Very beta NF of him. Just he doesnt strike me as IEI, but clearly as EIE.

[jessica129]

I still think he's IEI. If he's EIE, I'll be LSI then because that guy is my dual.

[Gilly]

Hes not so empathetic as one might think, hes actually well known for hurting the people closest to him. Also, known for hurting those weaker then he is. He cant stand the weak.

These factors are certainly not mutually exclusive; any of them, at all. I would say that very empathetic people who endure a lot of repression or emotional hardship are very likely to be calloused, and perhaps, at times, even deliberately cruel towards those who are closest to them, because they represent the biggest threat.

That isnt to say I dont like him; I actually a huge fan. He is sensitive, in a fourish kinda way. But its mainly because of his music and art that Im a fan of his.

Same. But damn yo, that interview from Bowling for Columbine...damn.

I dont think hes a thinking type...there just no way. Theres a big difference between how a thinking type deals with people and the way a feeling type does, he is such a feeling type.

I agree. Everything about him screams ethical type; he's like an open wound. All of his music is social commentary, and a good chunk of it carries implicit criticism of the way people are dehumanized by the system. I don't think an ILE would object openly for the same reasons; their critiques are usually less holistic and more deconstructive. Manson is a classic Beta sx/so type: embodying the result or end-product of what he sees as wrong with the world. Reminds me of the guy from Watchman, the Comedian. It's a pretty easily discernible theme in many artists who are flamboyantly critical of the system and wistfully extol their place in it; Amanda Palmer is another one.

I think there are actually parallels to be drawn between Manson and Palmer, both behaviorally and artistically. They talk the exact same way.

He too flamboyant to be IEI

lol oxymoron much?

...EIE is the only thing that fits; he views the world in dark and dramatic colors and sees himself as the "avenging angel" of out to destroy puritanical America. Very beta NF of him. Just he doesnt strike me as IEI, but clearly as EIE.

He is hugely Beta, everything is dramatic and critical and dark and violent and grotesque...etc. I won't rule out EIE-Ni as a possible type, he definitely carries a kind of composure belying seething grossness that is typical There may be reasons to think he is extroverted, but IEI-Ni is my main guess for now.

[The Ineffable]

How can you be certain of the subtypes without being certain of the main type?

I don't believe in subtypes, but I guess he means that "if he is <this type>, than he is <this subtype>", because that's the only way he could fit that type (the way agape sees it). The same way one could say "if he is Ni, then he is Beta NF", for instance when one's personality betrays unvalued Te/Fi.

Consider that one can be certain of three type by excluding with confidence the other 5...

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't believe in subtypes, but I guess he means that "if he is <this type>, than he is <this subtype>", because that's the only way he could fit that type (the way agape sees it). The same way one could say "if he is Ni, then he is Beta NF", for instance when one's personality betrays unvalued Te/Fi.

Consider that one can be certain of three type by excluding with confidence the other 5...

Yeah, though that makes them justifications, not precise typings, and justification through subtyping is misguided. It should be fully feasible to type a person according to the main types.

[Gilly]

The guy is obvious alpha to me, maybe stereotypically beta NF like every artist is on this forum.

Any chance you'll ever be more than a tally mark with an inferiority complex?

[woofwoofl]

The extensive usage of polarities in his lyrics (hate/love, weak/strong, Marilyn(Monroe)/Manson(Charles)), hit me as an indicator of Dialectical-Algoritmic, until I noticed BnD (to the largest extent), hitta, and many other IEIs doing it on here. I can't throw them all into EIE...

Past that, this one's a hard as shit call for me to make; on cam, he did strike me as vaguely ILE, but not strongly, and I still need a shit ton more to go off of; this is as good a reason as any to get The Long Hard Road Out of Hell finally...

[The Ineffable]

The extensive usage of polarities in his lyrics (hate/love, weak/strong, Marilyn(Monroe)/Manson(Charles)), hit me as an indicator of Dialectical-Algoritmic, until I noticed BnD (to the largest extent), hitta, and many other IEIs doing it on here. I can't throw them all into EIE...

Yeah it's a Ni fetish. You know, angel&demon, haven&hell, to be or not to be, black and white, dead or alive... IME it sounds cool to them, impressive. BTW, once an IEI woman told me that this world was created from love and hate, and she was meaning it :|.

[Gilly]

Jake I'm curious why you post this passage about Ti, it seems almost antithetical to Manson's real attitude. While a lot of his lyrics are about mechanization and dehumanization, he himself takes a rather self-important, preaching social role that is diametrically opposed to how Jungs passage describes the Ti type's psychic relation to society: Manson is flamboyant and mocking rather than unassuming and disengaged. He certainly seems like something of a social trickster, which I suppose seems stereotypical of ILEs, but if you watch, say, the TV interviews of Manson etc al, you can tell that he takes this almost sadistic pleasure in having his ideas questioned and causing tension while he remains calm, controlled, and deliberately appearing indifferent. He relishes in the negative attention and in maintaining his poise in its face; this is classic Beta Se+Fe.

[DividedsGhost]

Jake I'm curious why you post this passage about Ti, it seems almost antithetical to Manson's real attitude. While a lot of his lyrics are about mechanization and dehumanization, he himself takes a rather self-important, preaching social role that is diametrically opposed to how Jungs passage describes the Ti type's psychic relation to society: Manson is flamboyant and mocking rather than unassuming and disengaged. He certainly seems like something of a social trickster, which I suppose seems stereotypical of ILEs, but if you watch, say, the TV interviews of Manson etc al, you can tell that he takes this almost sadistic pleasure in having his ideas questioned and causing tension while he remains calm, controlled, and deliberately appearing indifferent. He relishes in the negative attention and in maintaining his poise in its face; this is classic Beta Se+Fe.

I pretty much feel you explained him well. For what my opinion might be worth, I don't know if I'd go so far personally as to say this is a beta role of being contently iconoclastic, because he is primarily trying to entertain.

I pretty much think it fundamental that you wouldn't find a thinker taking on such role and that the way he does it is in service of Ni. And then it would seem odd to imply an LSI or SLE being very content in such a role. And the way he entertains seems in service of neurotic Se impulses, something an IEI would be less prone to...unless we're talking about someone balanced on introversion and extroversion, which we are; so IEI or EIE is kind of going to be same meaning here for him, I feel.

Maybe because his entertaining style is so heavy on a neurotic Se of impulses rather than the hysteria of Ti, it makes more theoretical sense to say he's an extrovert? Or whatever, I just wanted to say I thought what you said was accurate, so yeah.

[HERO]

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/bla...wsitemID=27587

MARILYN MANSON has told the U.K.'s Mirror.co.uk that he disapproved of the scruffy tracksuit Britney Spears wore for her controversial marriage to Kevin Federline.

"I found that really terrible," he said, "Ultimately, I suppose it's whatever makes you happy.

"But I do have an old-fashioned sense of tradition — although it's not always what everyone might find conventional. If you're going to do something like getting married, it should have a sense of celebration to it. It should be grand — it doesn't have to be in tracksuits!"


"I totally believe in monogamy with the right person," he said.

"I do want lots of kids, too, but not any time soon. Ultimately, that's how you make yourself immortal — by passing down your ideas and values to your children."

[Gilly]

He seems obviously Ne and ENTp to me, like he's trying to catch quick or witty associations or make connections, be silly or give off something novel and surprising. Also by his demeanor you see a judicious type, EP yet very outwardly settled. Not sure where this Beta NF idea comes from, sound very ill-informed.

Please, do your best to be childishly bitter and vainly resent having ingenuous intellectual engagement forced on you. I already know you would rather trail blindly.

I don't see how Manson is EP or extroverted at all. He seems completely IP to me; he has a casual poise like all IEIs, but offstage he doesn't really go out of his way to put on a persona in interviews and such, he is just frank and his speech is controlled but lightly colored in a way that reminds me of Beta NFs like strrrng and Amanda Palmer.

ENFjs like all F types are not necessarily dramatic and over the top in certain moments, but are consistently emotional and affective which can be spotted as an Fe type by their immediate presence or especially in other words, their way of ethical connection.

If you watch Manson he is not deliberately affective, like an extrovert, but rather casually so. This is typical if IEIs.

[/quote]Best learned by examples. Please revel in the Fe of male ENFjs I will provide for you and accept this as a kind of lesson on Fe:[/quote]

LOL Jesus christ, your cure for low self esteem is a raging inferiority complex? Are you actually trying to self-actualize or are you just waving Jung around like a pretty flag?

Really the most obvious way, looking at this forum, that one can possibly confuse an ENTp for ENFj is if ethics of the type is not taken into consideration, which is precisely what's going on. Confusing art and dramaticism for someone's actual type, it's a bad way to start out, and really, based off some vague quadra description that has no other backing and is taken too literally for what it actually is (since not every one out of four or sixteen is like this) vs. real examples of individuals. Which are you going to chose and would you like to see more examples of ENTps?

An INTERESTING sidelong shot. Funny that most people type me EIE precisely BECAUSE I seem Fe dominant.

Art is usually a bad starting place, yet when considered along with the artist's consistent personal style and aesthetic, and their apparent motivations, it can be revealing, especially when the artist is consciously delivering a message from his or her personal life in art, which, if you read Manson's autobiography, you will see is very much the case.

And YES, I'd love to see an ILE who is comparable to Manson.

that is the question. Please rewatch and recycle this information if you disagree.

"If you don't think like me yet, read my words over and over until you do!"

[Gilly]

Idk, personally I think he comes across as much too introverted to have that factor outweighed by his fashion.

[Aquagraph]

Interview with Bill O'Reily. Unfortunately he's very non-provocative.


He was asked what would he say to those kids at Columbine massacre.


I'd say ILE or IEE. Or a possible Fe creative.

[ashlesha]

i'm not a big fan of his music but i love him in interviews.

Interview with Bill O'Reily. Unfortunately he's very non-provocative.

what type is bill o'reilly? i remember watching this and being surprised that o'reilly seemed calmer and less unreasonable than usual, especially since manson is an especially controversial person i would have expected him to really rip into. it was cool.

[Gilly]

IEI IMO

[Gilly]

There's a great interview with he and the rest of his band on the Phil Donohue show from the early 90s where he just calmly owns the shit out of everyone. Its great.

[Gilly]

[Aquagraph]

I like my Bill O'Reilly as a conservative moralist douche who's always on about the children and family values.

[Gilly]

I like my Bill O'Reilly as a conservative moralist douche who's always on about the children and family values.

Yeah I was disappointed, though I think he suspected that Manson feeds off of the controversy and so he took a more direct, neutralizing tactic. I think Bill O'Reilly is probably Te-LIE; the very detached accusatory Te-ish tactic he took seemed to be much more unnerving for Manson than Phil Donohue's uppity moral outrage, it's the only time I've seen Manson be off-balance like that in an interview.

[Creepy-Snaps]

I suspect he may be ILE. I really like how he intelligently questions society's norms and makes people think. Here I'll post an interview with him and Bill O'Reilly, whom I suspect may be ESE.

Ironically, I feel similar to O'Reilly (never thought I'd say that ) when I get upset if someone is doing something terrible, but then the calm, laid-back explanations of an Alpha NT help me relax. Toward the end of the interview, Bill O'Reilly's assault on Manson's ethics seems to have subsided, and he seems to accept Manson's behavior. What do you think?

[krieger]

i'd go for infp.

oh and O'Reilly has to have ego Se.

[ashlesha]

a lot of people seem to think entp, i don't like that. one of these days maybe i'll care enough to actually find some excuses for him to be something else.

[krieger]

Outside of VI, why do you think that for Manson?

stereotype "victim" Se seeking + Ti/Fe's progressive, quirky weirdness.

Fe also sort of adds to the victimlike attitude cause it rolls with Ti's dictates.

Why do you think O'Reilly is Se ego?

stereotype weak Ne.

yes, i'm using stereotypes because imo stereotypes are OK in one direction: if the stereotype fits it's an (non conclusive) argument for the type. if it doesn't fit it's not an argument against it.

[HERO]

I still think he’s EIE.












https://www.rollingstone.com/music/f...sident-w440962

September 20, 2016

Marilyn Manson voted for Barack Obama in 2012, but he has no intention of visiting a polling station this November. "I don't find either candidate to my liking, so I choose to stand out of this one," he tells Rolling Stone. "And I don't think that's a coward's stance. A lot of people might say that. I just don't really want to be a part of this piece of history. Last time, I did want to be involved in some piece of history as a voter."

When asked about the candidates – or more specifically, one of the candidates – he says it's the context that matters. "You're asking what I think about Trump, and it's a tough call because if you look back at old presidents that have been in the past, and you weren't old enough to know how they lived their lives, and you didn't live in the era that was so media-saturated and internet and just so many opinions swirling around, the world seems a bit chaotic more than it should be," he says. "But then when you simplify it, it isn't more chaotic. It just comes down to two things: Who has more charisma, and who are they appealing to. And neither one of them appeal to me."

Manson, who will be making an appearance on the upcoming season of Salem and who has been teasing a "pretty violent" new album (SAY10) due in February, has long expressed disillusionment with the American electoral process. In 2000, when George W. Bush was elected, he told an interviewer, "I don't vote because I don't believe that it's a legitimate system anymore or of it ever was, so I just try and insert my beliefs on politics in music because I think that speaks to the youth which will be the future."

In 2004, when Bush was running against then-Senator John Kerry, he offered a similar opinion: "It's not a matter of me thinking my vote is going to make a difference or not; it's a matter of I don't have an interest in either person."

But his tone shifted when then-Senator Barack Obama became a candidate, telling Time in 2009 that he voted for "the president, of course." It was the first time he'd ever voted for president, he said. In 2012, Manson told Time Out Chicago that while he did vote for Obama, he "never believed in the authenticity of the two-party system," adding, "Politics in this country is all what happens behind Oz's curtain."



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.daa3df82bc0b

“The strange reason Marilyn Manson admires Trump” (By Sarah Polus October 5, 2017 )

Marilyn Manson likes to make his political opinions known — sometimes.

The goth rocker, who voted for then-President Barack Obama in 2012, opted out of participating in this year’s election cycle. “I don’t find either candidate to my liking, so I choose to stand out of this one,” he told Rolling Stone last September.

Some speculated, though, that the shock rocker’s “Say10″ music video was a comment on last year’s election. (There’s a beheaded figure donning a power suit who could be a stand-in from Donald Trump). Manson, who released the clip on the eve of the 2016 presidential election, never publicly admitted that Trump was his muse — or target.

But despite not voting for Trump, there’s one thing Manson does like about POTUS. And that’s Trump Tower. And no, it’s not because he went there to hobnob with Manhattan’s elite. The reason is a bit more . . . well, Marilyn Manson-esque.

In a recent Rolling Stone interview, Manson described how Trump Tower once helped him hide from the police when there was a warrant out for his arrest.

“I do admire the fact that he created Trump Tower,” Manson said. “Because when I did an interview and it went wrong and I got arrested for putting a gun in the mouth of an editor of Spin, I hid from the law there.”

Hold on . . . what?

In 1998, Manson and his body guards allegedly assaulted Spin Magazine editor Craig Marks, who then filed a lawsuit, according to an article by MTV News. At the time, Manson reportedly threatened Marks because of a magazine cover dispute, saying: ‘I can kill you! I can kill your family! I can kill everyone you know.’ ”

According to Rolling Stone, the case was eventually settled out of court, and Manson was never arrested.


https://www.independent.ie/style/cel...-36153944.html

Marilyn Manson insists no political message in ‘decapitated Trump’ music video

The singer said any political elements depended on the listener, even though the timing makes a “statement”. (By Francesca Gosling, September 20 2017)


Metal rock singer Marilyn Manson has insisted that his grizzly music video to SAY10, released during last year’s US election and featuring a decapitated suited man, was not intended to depict Donald Trump.

While he admitted that the timing of the song’s release made a statement, he said that there was no fixed political message behind it and that Trump’s presidency is no more concerning than any other.

The video was widely interpreted as a swipe at the then presidential candidate, as the bloodied corpse appeared to be wearing Trump’s signature blue suit and red tie.

Speaking of the track – a first taster from his upcoming album Heaven Upside Down – Manson told music magazine NME: “The only thing it had to do with politics was what people wanted to make it.

“It could be a preacher, it could just be a businessman. It (the body in the video) could be anything, but in no way does it say it is Trump.

“But of course when you release it on election day, it makes a statement.”

He added: “[Trump] doesn’t worry me any more than any of the other presidents.”

The 48-year-old US musician has openly spoken about his conscious decision not to vote in the landmark election last November, but while he has previously told interviewers that it was because neither candidate appealed to him, he admitted that it was “because I’d have had to get up early”.

The only president he has voted for was Barack Obama, because, he said: “I thought it was such a unique period in history that I wanted to do it just so that I could say I’d done it.”


http://ultimateclassicrock.com/maril...courtney-love/

MARILYN MANSON SAYS HIS FRIENDSHIP WITH COURTNEY LOVE ENDED BECAUSE OF SEX (January 22, 2015)

Men and women, women and men -- if you've seen 'When Harry Met Sally,' you know we have a hard time maintaining friendships without sexual tension getting in the way. Heck, just ask Marilyn Manson.

The eyeliner enthusiast reflected on his former friendship with Hole mastermind Courtney Love during a recent interview with Esquire, suggesting that their years of much-publicized insult-slinging may have started because of an unrequited attraction.

Insisting that they "never really had a falling out" with each other, Manson also argued that, contrary to most male-female friendships that disintegrate over matters of the heart, the guy in this relationship wasn't the one who wanted more.

"We've always been weird with each other, because she's slept with pretty much every one of my friends, supposedly. Not me, though," he claimed. "She told me she was mad at me because I didn't want to f--- her and I was smarter than her. I said, 'Well, you kind of proved your own point right there on that one.'"



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...cuous-dim.html

'I thought you were gay!' Courtney Love hits back at Marilyn Manson after he accuses her of being promiscuous and dim (By Cassie Carpenter for MailOnline) [PUBLISHED: 21 January 2015]


While promoting his new album, Marilyn Manson managed to reignite a long-dormant feud with Courtney Love.

'We never really had a falling out,' the 46-year-old shock rocker told Esquire.

'We've always been weird with each other, because she's slept with pretty much every one of my friends, supposedly. Not me, though.

'She, one time, told me she was mad at me because I didn't want to f*** her and I was smarter than her. I said, "Well, you kind of proved your own point right there on that one."'

The 50-year-old grunge queen took to her Twitter on Tuesday to respond: 'Omg @marilynmanson all this time thought u're gay. Of course I'll f*** u. Im free Fri from 1:15 to 1:18 gives us plenty time 4 a smoke too x.'

The outrageous nineties icons both acted (never together) in the seventh and final season of Sons of Anarchy.


https://www.christianpost.com/news/m...bieber-199282/

“Marilyn Manson News: On His Friendship with Johnny Depp and His Hatred for Justin Bieber” (By Shannon Azares , Sep 15, 2017)

The combo of Marilyn Manson and Johnny Depp in the same place is something that some fans only ever dreamed of. In a recent interview, the "Heaven Upside Down" singer shared something about his past that has to do with how he bonds with Depp, his hatred for Canadian pop singer Justin Bieber, and what it is like to go through a hard life.

AV Club reports that Manson's hatred for Bieber came from that the "Love Yourself" singer was wearing a shirt with the face of the former. Although his designer insisted that Manson gave his permission for the usage, Depp's close friend was quick to deny. Put in kinder words, Bieber told him that he made Manson relevant again and before he could sue his camp for the violation, they told him to just take the money and move on. Understandably, Manson was appalled and his hatred for Bieber continues to this day.

Meanwhile, Billboard conducted an interview with Manson, who revealed he and Depp recently got matching back tattoos. Amusingly, he recalled that he was in real physical pain, which caught the attention of his fans who took the liberty to remind him that he was the same guy who put needles under his fingernails. Other than that, it seems that Manson has been through a lot as he recalled what he has experienced thus far in the interview.

"All the scars — musical, physical, mental, emotional — they're what define you," said Manson. "If you're going to take on the world, which I've done, it takes a lot of backbone — more than people think. I'm not bragging about it, but it does weigh on you."

[Kill4Me]

Manson is a great example of the SEI-Fe cognition running on the dramatic 4w3 character type. SX/SPer. (The 4w3 character type has a predisposition towards borderline personality disorder.). SEI-Fe is the dark subtype of SEI. By dark means negatively charged -- edgier, more intense.

Marilyn Manson's cognition in a nutshell: Si collects sensations, objects, symbols, visuals, even ideas that cause a certain sensation, and Fe-creative chooses among that collection as to which will produce the desired emotional responses from his audience. Ni-role sees outside the box as to ways that those chosen sensations can then be imaginatively organized/collaged in a way that reflects a basic message, theme.

Gaahl (sheep's head on a stake)
Ozzy Osbourne (birds to bite the heads off of)
Wendy O. Williams (televisions and cars to smash)

Marilyn Manson's reputation for the grotesque speaks for itself..

Now, adds in the caveats. Fe subtype puts a more intense and edgy angle on it. Also, type four being in the reactive triad gives it a more intense charge. The 3 wing adds a level of performance and exhibitionism. Also, sx/sp being a dark, edgy, confrontational stacking raises this particular combination to the crème of the crop in terms of grotesque. i.e. you have Marilyn Manson and Ozzy Osbourne, the two kings of the Fe-creative, Ni-role style grotesque.

Practical ways to tell apart SEI vs IEI: Manson's cognition is too crude for an IEI. SEIs also have a propensity for making inferences about people based purely on physical characteristics. That's another good disqualifier for the IEI cognition. Ni/Fe converts inner worlds into new modes of expression.

Needless to say, he's a perfect fit for the SEI-Fe VI:

https://www.pinterest.com/socionics/sei-fe/

learn the foundations and the typings practically takes care of itself.

Click here for my expanded view on Si and the Arts.

[Creepy-female]

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

[woofwoofl]

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

Was it around the time of Golden Age of Grotesque? It all hit me, in the middle of that album, that the stuff was more constructed than felt, it's mentally playful like a shit ton with the double entendres and wordplay, the music is more still than propulsive or building, and there's that certain thing with outside objects being parts of groupings that had nothing to do with their physical build (some of you caught me in the chatbox going on about the Si-SLI girl and her idea of what constitutes a "restaurant" being entirely separate from what its physical makeup happens to be, that it magically makes food of its own volition by being part of a "restaurant") that I spot him doing...


We're a death-marching band
Peter Pan off the wagon
Entertain but never trust anyone sober.
We're tasteless but taste good
My (S)top Hat's top hat(ed)
Unsafe cheerleaders with
Porn poms and pipe bombs

I won't do it with you
I'll do it to you
I hope this hook gets caught in your mouth
I won't do it with you
I'll do it you
Don't say no
Just say now

I like a big car, cause
I'm a big star
I make a big rock and roll hit
I'd like to love you
but my heart is a sore
I am, I am, I am so yours
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you

I'm the leader of the club
And I've shrugged off my mouse ears
We fly No-Class Dumbo jets
And drive hardcore-vettes
We fight war with drugs
And our sex always formal
We wear lawsuits when
We get high high high

I won't do it with you
I'll do it to you
I hope this hook gets caught in your mouth
I won't do it with you
I'll do it you
Don't say no
Just say now

I like a big car, cause
I'm a big star
I make a big rock and roll hit
I'd like to love you
but my heart is a sore
I am, I am, I am so yours
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you

"Inhale, exhale, let's all hail"
It's a depraved new world
"Inhale, exhale, let's all hail"
It's a depraved new world
After all

I like a big car, cause
I'm a big star
I make a big rock and roll hit
I'd like to love you
but my heart is a sore
I am, I am, I am so yours
I am a big car and
I'm a strip bar
You call it fake,
I call it, "good as it gets."
Nothing in this world is for real
Except you are for me and
I am so yours
Ka-boom ka-boom


I'll pretend that I want you
For what is on the inside
But when I get inside,
I'll just want to get out
I'm your first and last deposit
Through sickness and in hell
I'll never promise you a garden
You'll just water me down
I can't believe that you are for real
But I don't care as long as you're mine

When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)

I'm unsafe, I'm unsafe
I won't repent and so
I memorize the words to the porno movies
It's the only thing I want to believe
I memorize the words to the porno movies
This is a new religion to me

I'm a VCR funeral of
Dead-memory waste and
My smile is a chainlink fence
that I have put up
I love the enemy, my love is thee enemy
They say they don't want fame
But they get famous
When we fuck

When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)

I'm unsafe, I'm unsafe
I won't repent and so
I memorize the words to the porno movies
It's the only thing I want to believe
I memorize the words to the porno movies
This is a new religion to me

I never believed the devil was real
But god couldn't make someone filthy as you

When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)

You are the church
I am the steeple,
When we fuck
We're all god's people
You are the church
I am the steeple,
When we fuck
We're all god's people

[The Ineffable]

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

Can you point us to at least one instance in the theory of Socionics where this is how ILE is described, at least hinted? In my knowledge, the closest to what you describe is Beta NF. ILEs are described as pensive, curious into how things work, rational, geek-ish, airy, logical or at least analytical. Their humor, from what I know, is either witty, satirical (or something close to these) or unintentional (lack of attention - but not defiant! - to social customs, taboos, etc). What you describe is unfamiliar, the only thing I recognize is the idea of appearing childish, but which you misinterpret, overlooking at which aspects of the personality of this type it refers to, making correlations unintended by those descriptions.

But I'm just disagreeing with that reasoning, I'm not saying MM cannot be ILE, in fact that's my second option for him after EIE, but for different reasons. Ashton makes a good point IMO; MM in interviews is tracking down the reasons for everything, including his motives, he seems to have a detailed hypothesis for everything [1] that occurs to him, to society, to things.
---

[1] - from an Beta NF I don't expect to come with such concrete cause-effect conclusions, but more with mottoes and rules of thumb.

[Creepy-female]

Can you point us to at least one instance in the theory of Socionics where this is how ILE is described, at least hinted?

I'm not sure you can apply these generalizations hyper-literally across the board, but I feel some aspects of them do work.

Childlike Types: ENTp, INTj

These types seem to exist outside their own sexuality. Sex is to be metabolized psychologically for them in an almost roundabout way - as an emotional entity, or possibly even an intellectual exercise. In a partner, they are looking for someone who will deal with (and protect) their quirks and understand their sexuality on the same intellectual/emotional level.

(http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-descriptions)

Stages of life metaphor

Often the quadras are linked, in order, with four general stages of life:
Alpha - childhood
Beta - adolescence
Gamma - adulthood
Delta - old age

This metaphor describes the quadras at a more general level than value dichotomies. In particular group behavior very often follows the pattern: the curiosity and frivolousness of Alphas, the iconoclastic tendencies of Betas, the industry and conservatism of Gammas, and the balanced and detached pragmatism of Deltas.

(http://www.socionics.us/wikisocion/Q...#Quadra_values)

In my knowledge, the closest to what you describe is Beta NF. ILEs are described as pensive, curious into how things work, rational, geek-ish, airy, logical or at least analytical. Their humor, from what I know, is either witty, satirical (or something close to these) or unintentional (lack of attention - but not defiant! - to social customs, taboos, etc).

When I say "overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random" I mean to communicate something of his gestalt as a person. Manson seems to fit most of those attributes you describe. I don't see how my description paints him as defiant. I see an exploratory, process orientated bent to his work rather than the perhaps more pointed agenda I see with Beta NFs, thus the child rather than adolescent way of relating works better to me. I get a rather sensory bent to his work that I associate with Si.

Compare this video of his work:



to Amanda Palmer, an ENFj:



The energy is more apparent if you watch them both with the sound off. They've both got the pancake makeup, the glitzy costumes, and the same microphone, but their bearing seems quite different. Amanda is going to incite the party goers into a coup if they don't pass out in a frenzy first - she's got a pointed, devious quality to her. Manson is making love to his Lolita and rolling around in her blood in a way that I can only describe as soft. He is airy compared to Amanda, and pensive, almost sensuous.

What you describe is unfamiliar, the only thing I recognize is the idea of appearing childish, but which you misinterpret, overlooking at which aspects of the personality of this type it refers to, making correlations unintended by those descriptions.

I don't feel you're interpreting what I said in the way I meant it. You're criticizing your own projections, which may be an exercise in futility.

[Gilly]

I'm not sure you can apply these generalizations hyper-literally across the board, but I feel some aspects of them do work.



(http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-descriptions)



(http://www.socionics.us/wikisocion/Q...#Quadra_values)



When I say "overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random" I mean to communicate something of his gestalt as a person. Manson seems to fit most of those attributes you describe. I don't see how my description paints him as defiant. I see an exploratory, process orientated bent to his work rather than the perhaps more pointed agenda I see with Beta NFs, thus the child rather than adolescent way of relating works better to me. I get a rather sensory bent to his work that I associate with Si.

Compare this video of his work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvf1DMDTosk

to Amanda Palmer, an ENFj:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i62UF7uROGU

The energy is more apparent if you watch them both with the sound off. They've both got the pancake makeup, the glitzy costumes, and the same microphone, but their bearing seems quite different. Amanda is going to incite the party goers into a coup if they don't pass out in a frenzy first - she's got a pointed, devious quality to her. Manson is making love to his Lolita and rolling around in her blood in a way that I can only describe as soft. He is airy compared to Amanda, and pensive, almost sensuous.


I don't feel you're interpreting what I said in the way I meant it. You're criticizing your own projections, which may be an exercise in futility.

Ok I mean, at least make fair comparisons, yo...love song vs. song about how demoralizing western society is? How about Manson's version of Leeds:



Pretty riotous music, there...that's the real Manson, the old Manson, in the stage of his career which would be comparable to Palmer's when she did Leeds.

Also, if you want to see "soft..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYEZnhnVCg

As far as quadra "ages" go, I think on the whole Manson and Palmer both exemplify emotions in their music, and aesthetics and methods of self-presentation most heavily attached to adolescence and, in general, the Beta quadra.

[717495]

Yes he's ENTp, people just don't know enough difference between Beta NFs to base anything else but a stereotype on.

"Devil's advocate with clown makeup. So dramatic, Beta omg. Not scientific enuf for ILE."

[ashlesha]

Yes he's ENTp, people just don't know enough difference between Beta NFs to base anything else but a stereotype on.

"Devil's advocate with clown makeup. Not scientific enuf, so dramatic Beta omg."

its one of my pet peeves when people criticize arguments that they just made up themselves.

"ashton says he's alpha. entp omg."

isn't that annoying? i suggest you not pull it on other people.

[mfckr]

its one of my pet peeves when people criticize arguments that they just made up themselves.

"ashton says he's alpha. entp omg."

isn't that annoying? i suggest you not pull it on other people.

C'mon, don't drag my name into other people's arguments plz lol

a lot of people seem to think entp, i don't like that.

Why?

[ashlesha]

Why?

for no other reason than that i like him and think he makes a ton of sense in interviews. if i had an actual reason i would have shared it. i'm not into the whole scary clown face aesthetic myself and his music is just ok but the way he explains his perspectives kinda resonates.