ENTps in games and anime

[tcaudilllg]

Although he made a valid observation about LeLouch, at this point Cuckoo is just trolling. I don't know what Aleksei said, but he's a nazi so who cares?

As usual Gul offers a superior analysis. I agree with him that most of the characters in FFVIII are pretty vague; however, scenario writers make it a priority to develop characters by giving each of them defining crises which reveal the traits stipulated by their designers.

What all these characters have in common, is that they break through simple stereotypes. The aim of ESE is to "break through the mask" created by beta NF, and to reveal the person within.

It is not correct to say that ESE is the last to fight and the first to make peace... that is not their role. Their role is to reveal who is trying to do the world right... and who is just out to make trouble.

Anyway...

Kisuke Urahara

[tcaudilllg]

Vaan







He's clearly a D.

[Creepy-Snaps]

It is not correct to say that ESE is the last to fight and the first to make peace... that is not their role. Their role is to reveal who is trying to do the world right... and who is just out to make trouble.

"Revealing who is trying to do the world right" is more ESI I think. My conflictor . They don't care for the shortcuts we ILEs take... we don't care about *trying* to do the world right, putting in hard work, we only care about the end result, if right was actually done.

[tcaudilllg]

"Revealing who is trying to do the world right" is more ESI I think. My conflictor . They don't care for the shortcuts we ILEs take... we don't care about *trying* to do the world right, putting in hard work, we only care about the end result, if right was actually done.

Right =/= just.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Right =/= just.

I know. Continuous Ti correcting Ne, haha.

[Creepy-male]

EIE I could accept.

See, look. This is a story Zidane tells Dagger, IIRC either when they're under Madain Sari or in the Black Mage Village.

Ipsen and his good friend Colin worked at a tavern in Treno. One day, Ipsen got a letter. The letter was so wet from rain that most of the writing was illegible. The only part he could read said, 'Come back home.'. Nowadays, we have airships and stuff, but back then, it was really hard to travel. He didn't know why he had to go back, but he got some time off, gathered his things, and set out on his journey home. He walked a thousand leagues through the Mist. Sometimes he was attacked by vicious monsters, but he made it, because his friend Colin was by his side. And then, after much time on the road... He had to ask Colin something:
"Why did you come with me?"
"Only because I wanted to go with you"

You cannot tell me that that is weak Fe. You cannot tell me that the plurality of moments that Zidane has like that with Garnet and Vivi that he's not a Fe dominant, or at the very least some kind of ethical type. That is not weak Fe. That is strong Fe. That is adept, skillful, direct and targeted manipulation of emotions.

Moreover, the problem with EIE is that he's never doing his Fe thing to direct people to Causes or Issues or any of that sort of stuff, he's a here-and-now "come on guys!" cheerleader, for lack of a better word. He's always trying to get people to feel better, or relax, or what have you. This is Alpha Fe.

Okay? Good.

[CloudCuckooLander]

EIE I could accept.

See, look. This is a story Zidane tells Dagger, IIRC either when they're under Madain Sari or in the Black Mage Village.



You cannot tell me that that is weak Fe. You cannot tell me that the plurality of moments that Zidane has like that with Garnet and Vivi that he's not a Fe dominant, or at the very least some kind of ethical type. That is not weak Fe. That is strong Fe. That is adept, skillful, direct and targeted manipulation of emotions.

Moreover, the problem with EIE is that he's never doing his Fe thing to direct people to Causes or Issues or any of that sort of stuff, he's a here-and-now "come on guys!" cheerleader, for lack of a better word. He's always trying to get people to feel better, or relax, or what have you. This is Alpha Fe.

Okay? Good.

You firstly seem to have this habit of insulting, condescending speech - "Okay? Good." No, not okay. I find it very insulting, and do take offense.

You likewise seem to be severely stereotyping EIEs - and ignoring many of Zidane's actions, for that matter. Sure, he never mobilizes related to sociological or geopolitical issues - but he does direct people to assist Garnet (and later himself, when Kuja's role becomes clear) in taking action. Any Fe-ego (and for that matter, most anyone who isn't Fe-superego) type can raise the emotional mood around him. The point is that Zidane quite clearly seems to value Se - he's very impulsive, and very aimed at making a direct and immediate impact.

[Creepy-male]

So you're an obnoxious asshole and don't understand Socionics. Discussion closed, move along.

Good work losing my respect by demanding it.

[Creepy-Snaps]

You cannot tell me that that is weak Fe.

I'm not getting into sides with respect at all... I'm not even familiar with the character(s) you're talking about. But I'd just like to point out that perhaps the example you listed Thanks Arthur could be seen as Se instead of Fe...

Ipsen and his good friend Colin worked at a tavern in Treno. One day, Ipsen got a letter. The letter was so wet from rain that most of the writing was illegible. The only part he could read said, 'Come back home.'. Nowadays, we have airships and stuff, but back then, it was really hard to travel. He didn't know why he had to go back, but he got some time off, gathered his things, and set out on his journey home. He walked a thousand leagues through the Mist. Sometimes he was attacked by vicious monsters, but he made it, because his friend Colin was by his side. And then, after much time on the road... He had to ask Colin something:
"Why did you come with me?"
"Only because I wanted to go with you"

"Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm."

"Se is responsible for the perception, control, defense, and acquisition of space, territory, and control. It observes outward appearances, estimates whether forces are in alignment or conflict, and uses strength of will and power-based methods to achieve purposes. Se understands territory and physical aggression. It is also the function of contact and apprehension of qualia."

................. To put it simply: in the example, Colin is not actively influencing Ipsen's emotional state. He's just going along with him for the journey. Sounds more Se than Fe imho.

Again, I don't know the characters. That is simply an assumption based on the example. I don't know if perhaps Colin is a character of high emotions, shown in other parts of the game, or regularly influences other people, or if it's implied that Colin did more than 'go along' with Ipsen during the journey, implied that he kept up his spirits. If he did, I didn't infer that from the example. I inferred Colin went along for the adventure and to be with Ipsen because he cares about him strongly... but even Thinkers can care strongly, that's not showing Fe...

Again, this is not to offend you or anyone who thinks strongly about this subject. And actually, I can't say that it shows especially strong Se, or weak Fe. Doesn't show strong anything. I'd need to know the story/character more to make a more accurate guess. But just from the example, I'd lean more toward Se.

[Creepy-male]

Sorry, I perhaps wasn't clear. The quote I made is a story Zidane (who we're arguing about) is telling a friend of his, Garnet. What I'm arguing is strong Fe is Zidane using that story to make Garnet feel like less of a useless dead weight (which was what the scene was about).

Colin and Ipsen have nothing to do with anything, they're just people in the story Zidane chose to retell.

EDIT

And to clarify I don't feel especially strongly about the subject, I just take issue to people being wrong on the internet. Socionics is a symmetrical and logical system, and it irks me when that structure and logic is done away with with seemingly incredibly facile statements like SLES ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE STRONG FE DERP DERP DERP. No they're not, you just suck at Socionics. That breaks the definition of the HA. @Cloudcuckoolander: it's easy. Think about how you deal with structural logic. Apply every attribute of that to reading, tracking, and manipulating people's emotions, and you have Fe HA. Simple, right? This is why I keep trying to say Zidane is too good at Fe for Fe HA to make any kind of sense whatsoever.

I can't imagine anything in particular would sway my opinion of Zidane from being ESE, but I'm still open to having my mind blown by a hard-hitting and detailed analysis of his character and plot role. IEE would perhaps be acceptable, but I have my reservations.