I hate Fe properness

[EyeSeeCold]

Why can't anyone just talk about what bothers them or what they love without using gotdamn shapes?! Seriously though, explain the phenomena and avoid theoretical attributions until after the fact analysis. Or I will mangle you.

There are some people who do not care about the effect of their words in regards to individuals. And then there are people who do not care about the implications of their words in regards to everyone combined. I am of the latter group, and I do not like it when people exhibit the former.

[munenori2]

But is not 'everyone' merely a collective of single persons whom you do not care to mince words for?

[EyeSeeCold]

But is not 'everyone' merely a collective of single persons whom you do not care to mince words for?

What happens during the judgment process is that when you consider everyone as in individual, you understand that people have their own personal ways and do not seek to impose a fixed standard than is not flexible. When you consider everyone as a collective, you understand that not every single person can be satisfied and so you seek to find the option that suits the most amount of people.

Why I see as BS is because there is no reason to impose a standard. Of course not everyone can be satisfied, but that does not give you the right to act in such a way as to affirm it. If everyone can't be satisfied then don't try! Go for self and be your own person.

[ashlesha]

this thread is confusing to me. but i think i sort of have the gist of it. what feels relevant to me as an EII is something i brought up recently in a different thread: the idea of looking at someone as a "person" versus looking at someone as a "compilation of behaviors and actions," and how i automatically do the former. this is something i've sort of associated with Fi, though it might also have to do with my upbringing (in a way that is traceable, albeit uncomfortable and maybe pointless to go into). and maybe its just something that most people do, at least up to a point.

idk, though, when i think of paying attention to everyone's ethical behavior, what i picture in my mind is this image of a person with a steno pad and a pen, keeping track of others' behavior and tallying it against some kind of checklist of what is preferable or acceptable. and i just absolutely do not have the time and energy to think of people in that way...not to mention, something about that mindset feels kind of inhuman and gross to me (sorry). so if Fi has to do with such traceable and explicit sorts of judgments, than i know i am definitely not Fi ego.

that's not to say i don't see the wisdom in being careful and maintaining some kind of objectivity when it comes to who you associate with. but people are people, and we're all kind of crazy and we all fuck up all the time because it's just the nature of being a person. obviously, things like morality and social codes are pretty complex, there are very few universal rules, so it really comes down to how you feel. which makes a checklist kind of impossible, at least for me. i guess what i'm basically trying to say is that it's complicated.

What happens during the judgment process is that when you consider everyone as in individual, you understand that people have their own personal ways and do not seek to impose a fixed standard than is not flexible. When you consider everyone as a collective, you understand that not every single person can be satisfied and so you seek to find the option that suits the most amount of people.

i like this.

[marooned]

i don't think i really understand this topic without examples. somehow i don't think the torturing kittens example works. i mean if you were really close friends with this person already and then you find out, out of the blue, they torture kittens in their spare time, then it's kind of like figuring out you didn't really know them to begin with... because i mean if you didn't notice this sadistic side to them at all and they never did anything that would hint at it i might feel that they just well might be a very convincing psychopath... and their torturing of kittens raises some interesting questions about how they feel about other things... furthermore if i continue associating with them and don't do anything knowing full well they're torturing kittens it's like i'm an accomplice. i think i would feel that i had to do something (to stop them), so then it would turn into betrayal. anyway my point with this is that the kitten torturing is obviously too extreme an example and as most people don't do this it wouldn't come up in typical relationships obviously. anyway if you were madly in love with the kitten torturer before learning of his/her awful secret i doubt most people could just fall out of love with them at once because of it. and some kind of ultimatum like "i want nothing to do with you! you torture kittens! so either stop or i'm out of your life!!!!" seems really ridiculous especially considering they might not be able to stop because they're sick.

[717495]

i don't think i really understand this topic without examples. somehow i don't think the torturing kittens example works. i mean if you were really close friends with this person already and then you find out, out of the blue, they torture kittens in their spare time, then it's kind of like figuring out you didn't really know them to begin with... because i mean if you didn't notice this sadistic side to them at all and they never did anything that would hint at it i might feel that they just well might be a very convincing psychopath... and their torturing of kittens raises some interesting questions about how they feel about other things... furthermore if i continue associating with them and don't do anything knowing full well they're torturing kittens it's like i'm an accomplice. i think i would feel that i had to do something (to stop them), so then it would turn into betrayal. anyway my point with this is that the kitten torturing is obviously too extreme an example and as most people don't do this it wouldn't come up in typical relationships obviously. anyway if you were madly in love with the kitten torturer before learning of his/her awful secret i doubt most people could just fall out of love with them at once because of it. and some kind of ultimatum like "i want nothing to do with you! you torture kittens! so either stop or i'm out of your life!!!!" seems really ridiculous especially considering they might not be able to stop because they're sick.

Yeah, this viewpoint just seems rather to me. I mean it is a bit incomplete and also kind of extreme to make a serious decision about, but its still valid in my experience after experience with types and how they would judge the situation.

Well I don't know for sure if it's type related, but your wall of text displays no logical sense or factual examples. As such you might not even be an valuer, and I've no clear idea of why you're posting this or just muttering to yourself.

If anything, types are more likely to forgive social slip ups because it's not so much about forming a static opinion of you, .

But mostly this is depending on the person, and unless you want to be more precise in what you're complaining about-please provide examples, then most people on the thread will struggle.

I guess you didn't understand the context I was using? I was speaking of being about relationships, not objective ethics. I don't know what's so hard to understand. I'll let people give their own experiences about it.

this thread is confusing to me. but i think i sort of have the gist of it. what feels relevant to me as an EII is something i brought up recently in a different thread: the idea of looking at someone as a "person" versus looking at someone as a "compilation of behaviors and actions," and how i automatically do the former. this is something i've sort of associated with Fi, though it might also have to do with my upbringing (in a way that is traceable, albeit uncomfortable and maybe pointless to go into). and maybe its just something that most people do, at least up to a point.

idk, though, when i think of paying attention to everyone's ethical behavior, what i picture in my mind is this image of a person with a steno pad and a pen, keeping track of others' behavior and tallying it against some kind of checklist of what is preferable or acceptable. and i just absolutely do not have the time and energy to think of people in that way...not to mention, something about that mindset feels kind of inhuman and gross to me (sorry). so if Fi has to do with such traceable and explicit sorts of judgments, than i know i am definitely not Fi ego.

that's not to say i don't see the wisdom in being careful and maintaining some kind of objectivity when it comes to who you associate with. but people are people, and we're all kind of crazy and we all fuck up all the time because it's just the nature of being a person. obviously, things like morality and social codes are pretty complex, there are very few universal rules, so it really comes down to how you feel. which makes a checklist kind of impossible, at least for me. i guess what i'm basically trying to say is that it's complicated.

I definitely know and appreciate where you're coming from. Thanks for the info. I've found that oftentimes after the cloud of perspective fades and is cleared up, people in general are left with a better sense of what the originally was or is. Just because I'm an valuer, to me always has to add some kind of twist on things, and isn't objective in the sense that it's true, all objective means is that it aims towards an objective judgment. What you described seems easily like a take on things and what I like to hear.

[marooned]

Yeah, this viewpoint just seems rather to me. I mean it is a bit incomplete and also kind of extreme to make a serious decision about, but its still valid in my experience after experience with types and how they would judge the situation.

out of curiosity what would you see as more ?

[717495]

The Lenore Thompson wiki describes what you're saying as something related to :

Great perspective I find the 2nd and 3rd paragraph the most valid. "Inner essence," which is a great reference to how "relationships" are formed.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

But Fe types do that as well. Everybody is like, paying attention to how their environments naturally clash with them or not. Stop acting like you're these pristine beautiful unique snowflakes with a 'higher moral purpose' or something and that only you as a Beautiful and Magestic Fi type can understand the truest most pure form of love. It's making me vomit. Can't you guys be clearer on what you really want from somebody, in a physical context? Jeesh. That's why I like estps. They are so direct and so clear on what they want. It seems like all fi types do is hold out for some 'deep and meaningful' thing THAT DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST. I mean jesus christ, what do you really want to do? Do you want to play video games together, do you want me to get a real job? Do you want to be nicer? Do you want others to be nicer? Do you want to go to the park and throw a ball around.

I'm only being like argumentative because it's like what you guys want. It's how you can relate to people. It brings out the fight in me.

[Words]

I guess you didn't understand the context I was using? I was speaking of being about relationships, not objective ethics. I don't know what's so hard to understand. I'll let people give their own experiences about it.

Yeah but you made the thread and I want to know what you mean by and examples pertaining to your life, because surely things must have happened to you to have formed an opinion.

[ashlesha]

@ashton: thanks for that quote, it matches my experience with Fi quite well. and, lol, the intangible things, ya

@poli: i think we have a similar view of the Fe/Fi difference, though i have a hard time following your wording (i'm going off the basic gist and feel i get from what youre saying). what is mostly confusing me is that i largely agree with what loki wrote, maybe not every detail, but nothing she said stood out to me as particularly egregious, idk. so i'm having trouble seeing where the Fe/Fi line is here.

@bnd: do you honestly not see any parallel between describing Fi as something all mystical or whatever when compared to the way you talk about Ni? i dont blame you for being annoyed, cos that annoys me too

i also feel like its probably important to clarify that its not as though im completely blind to behaviors...i have instinctual reactions to behaviors as well as to people, its that when it comes to putting the two together there isnt any kind of direct line or anything. its not like there is zero correlation between the person and what they do, just that they are very far from being one and the same. bleh, hard to explain.