I hate Fe properness

[717495]

When types get offended by some "objective" ethical connotation, it just seems so fake to me. There's no personal relationship being threatened, there's nothing real that's threatening them or coming between us, they just chose to act like there is and jeopardize all the peace and everything we have for the sake of some principle or ridiculous feeling inside them (probably, not that I would know), and shun me or others if we happen to say something wrong or offend some other type who "cares" so much, and at times feel obligated to follow the popular crowd or popular feeling instead of their own bonds. It's like you think you're close with someone, until they get offended by something that has nothing to do with your relationship with them, and then treat you like you're the devil or something. I've never understood , I've never understood how people can be that way. People need to grow up and face the music, and quit making a big deal out of nothing. It's like their ego has to get involved with things they know nothing about. Why get offended by something when it has nothing to do with you?

I call this negative attribute related to because it extinguishes the knowledge and underlying strength of personal relationships, and is my biggest weakness, something I don't give a crap about. It can also seem pretty "cultish" at times if that's the word. Also people who actively use tell me that that's how you really socialize and form "meaningful" relationships with people, as though you have to properly know how to play together and suck up to "objective" connotations, and to me it's just wrong. And I've often seen them really suck at or being afraid of actually talking with someone about their interests and getting to know them, its like they just kind of sit back and ride the social roller coaster and pretend to care and think they know people, yet show them no depth. Sure maybe easily adapt and have some fun...but what's the point? Sometimes just seems waaaayy too distant and over-tactical to me, and not at all real enough. So yeah, rant.

[Begoner]

It's like you think you're close with someone, until they get offended by something that has nothing to do with your relationship with them, and then treat you like you're the devil or something.

If a friend were to say to me, "I torture cute kittens in my spare time", such a statement would have nothing to do with our relationship. Nonetheless, I would treat them differently, since I would not wish to be friends with someone who engages in seriously unethical practices. While nothing would have come between us, I think it's important to let people know that such behavior is unacceptable; hopefully, it might induce them to alter their outlook, something which maintaining the status quo cannot achieve. Of course, the decision is seldom a logical consideration; that someone acts immorally is enough for me to find them less likable, whether or not they act immorally towards me or towards other people. Since a relationship with someone is largely based on mutual liking, this can have consequences for a relationship.

[Aiss]

Fe types take everything personally. Live with it.

[Morcheeba]

Fe types take everything personally. Live with it.

This is a huge misnomer; but coming from someone who is polr I guess I can understand why you would think this. If anything types take everything personally, at least from what I've seen from an ENFp ex friend of mine. And, this talk about how types being always polite and cultish is just plain ridiculous and go against anything that I would value.

[golden]

This is a huge misnomer; but coming from someone who is polr I guess I can understand why you would think this. If anything types take everything personally, at least from what I've seen from an ENFp ex friend of mine. And, this talk about how types being always polite and cultish is just plain ridiculous and go against anything that I would value.

Right (Morcheeba's post was in response to Aiss saying Fe types take everything personally).

Maybe, in line with the idea that Fi folks will commonly see Fe people as fake AND vice versa, we can consider whether Fi-valuers will view Fe-valuers as taking everything personally ... and vice versa. Or maybe when an Fe-valuer finds himself misunderstood by an Fi-valuer, he does start to take things personally ... and vice versa.

I'm not totally invested in these possibilities, just considering them.

[golden]

Both and valuers both accuse each other of the same shit—emo, fake, shallow, contrived, passionless, manipulative, drama queens, attention whores, takes things too personally, overly concerned with petty social norms… so on, so forth.

None of which is inherently true of either IE, but most people will see it that way. In practice, it's as if they're two entirely different languages that often end up talking straight past one another.

Cool. In that case, let's create a dozen threads in the next two weeks on why Fi sucks and why Fe sucks, too.

[Words]

Both and valuers both accuse each other of the same shit—emo, fake, shallow, contrived, passionless, manipulative, drama queens, attention whores, takes things too personally, overly concerned with petty social norms… so on, so forth.

None of which is inherently true of either IE, but most people will see it that way. In practice, it's as if they're two entirely different languages that often end up talking straight past one another.

Bingo.

People are fake, emo, manipulative etc, not IEs.

Some examples:

An Fi type who acts 'fake' and 'manipulative' by turning other people against a person, they do this by telling stories/making things up etc about the person (some of which might be true/some of which might be a grey area) which make other people become distant towards the person.

Or an Fi type who uses Fi to bring people together, to bring down inter-personal distance between others so that people get on and work well together (i've seen SEEs do this who are excellent managers).

Of course the SEE could do the first part, it depends on the person.

Or a Te type playing with the facts somewhat to make someone look inefficient, or using their skills to increase productivity. Or an Se type using power games to force someone out, or using their skills to foster a winning attitude for people.

etc etc, it's what people do with their stuff, personality and such not relating to type per se, at least in this matter most of the time ime/o.

Which is why i've been looking for examples in the thread, I suppose i'm wondering if what some people are referring to refers to a bullshit person or indeed an aspect of some IE.

[Suz]

Both and valuers both accuse each other of the same shit—emo, fake, shallow, contrived, passionless, manipulative, drama queens, attention whores, takes things too personally, overly concerned with petty social norms… so on, so forth.

None of which is inherently true of either IE, but most people will see it that way. In practice, it's as if they're two entirely different languages that often end up talking straight past one another.

LOL, i was reading through all the discussion that i missed in this thread, and was thinking i have to reiterate this!! I'm glad you did...

Then again, you were the one who taught me that!

[Pa3s]

If that's more or less true what you say, I have another evidence that I don't understand IEs. If you left out the and symbols, I would have arranged them in an opposite way.

I also don't seem to agree. If it's type related at all, I would have assumed the exact opposite, as I said. I just can't imagine that an INFj ignores the behaviour of a person outside of their personal relationship. For instance, if someone treats everyone badly except for the Fi-valuing type (take INFj as example), do you really think they're fine with it?

I personally pay much attention to the overall behaviour of a person for several reasons. What if they try to show you a fake, 'kind' personality just to take advantage of you? I abhor such behaviour and that's why I want no closer contact to those people. Besides that, unethical behaviour in different situations is definitely a reason for me to 'dismiss' a person.

If a friend were to say to me, "I torture cute kittens in my spare time", such a statement would have nothing to do with our relationship. Nonetheless, I would treat them differently, since I would not wish to be friends with someone who engages in seriously unethical practices. While nothing would have come between us, I think it's important to let people know that such behavior is unacceptable; hopefully, it might induce them to alter their outlook, something which maintaining the status quo cannot achieve. Of course, the decision is seldom a logical consideration; that someone acts immorally is enough for me to find them less likable, whether or not they act immorally towards me or towards other people. Since a relationship with someone is largely based on mutual liking, this can have consequences for a relationship.

This example is exaggerated of course, but is that what you mean? I mean I don't invade the private life of anyone, because I hate it if people are doing this with me, but such a behaviour would not be acceptable for me. Well, if people are able to do this, they might be also be able to do much worse things, even to yourself. That's what I always have in mind. It's important for me that the people I trust share more or less the same values and views in certain areas. If those 'standards' are not met, I won't let that person know important things (if they are often lying) for example.

[jessica129]

There's too many shapes in this thread AHHHHHHH

[Begoner]

This example is exaggerated of course, but is that what you mean?

I certainly wouldn't want to be friends with someone I thought was trying to take advantage of me, but even if I knew someone would be a loyal friend, I wouldn't tolerate severe ethical shortcomings. So, for example, if I learned that a friend of mine were prejudiced against group X, but I and all my acquaintances were of group Y, I wouldn't question the sincerity of his friendship; however, the fact that he was prejudiced would make me like him less. Similarly, if I see someone being rude to another person, my reaction is the same as if I were to see him blatantly picking his nose in front of me: I find that person a bit more disgusting than I did before, even though there's no pragmatic reason why it should affect our relationship.

[717495]

If that's more or less true what you say, I have another evidence that I don't understand IEs. If you left out the and symbols, I would have arranged them in an opposite way.

I also don't seem to agree. If it's type related at all, I would have assumed the exact opposite, as I said. I just can't imagine that an INFj ignores the behaviour of a person outside of their personal relationship. For instance, if someone treats everyone badly except for the Fi-valuing type (take INFj as example), do you really think they're fine with it?

I personally pay much attention to the overall behaviour of a person for several reasons. What if they try to show you a fake, 'kind' personality just to take advantage of you? I abhor such behaviour and that's why I want no closer contact to those people. Besides that, unethical behaviour in different situations is definitely a reason for me to 'dismiss' a person.

That's not exactly what I'm saying, I didn't say that EIIs "ignore behavior," but in terms of values I don't see how you're able to confuse ethics with ethics here, especially in supposedly being -PoLR. What should be noted of -PoLR is there is only consciousness in so far that there is weakness, whatever consciousness there is mostly in reflection of s vulnerable affect, with little room for a sense of control or understanding. I don't see any reason that an -PoLR would pay attention and try to judge the behavior of others in terms of ethics. It works in terms of personality categorization, but -PoLRs for instance have a whole other way of viewing personality theory as well.

[munenori2]

Why can't anyone just talk about what bothers them or what they love without using gotdamn shapes?! Seriously though, explain the phenomena and avoid theoretical attributions until after the fact analysis. Or I will mangle you.

[EyeSeeCold]

Why can't anyone just talk about what bothers them or what they love without using gotdamn shapes?! Seriously though, explain the phenomena and avoid theoretical attributions until after the fact analysis. Or I will mangle you.

There are some people who do not care about the effect of their words in regards to individuals. And then there are people who do not care about the implications of their words in regards to everyone combined. I am of the latter group, and I do not like it when people exhibit the former.

[MatthewZ]

If a friend were to say to me, "I torture cute kittens in my spare time", such a statement would have nothing to do with our relationship. Nonetheless, I would treat them differently, since I would not wish to be friends with someone who engages in seriously unethical practices. While nothing would have come between us, I think it's important to let people know that such behavior is unacceptable; hopefully, it might induce them to alter their outlook, something which maintaining the status quo cannot achieve. Of course, the decision is seldom a logical consideration; that someone acts immorally is enough for me to find them less likable, whether or not they act immorally towards me or towards other people. Since a relationship with someone is largely based on mutual liking, this can have consequences for a relationship.

If they could deliver that with a straight face, I'd personally be cracking up.

[Begoner]

If they could deliver that with a straight face, I'd personally be cracking up.

I mean if the person actually loved going Abu Ghraib on kittens, not if he had a deadpan sense of humor; I'd also find it funny if it were a nonchalantly-said joke.

[Words]

When types get offended by some "objective" ethical connotation, it just seems so fake to me. There's no personal relationship being threatened, there's nothing real that's threatening them or coming between us, they just chose to act like there is and jeopardize all the peace and everything we have for the sake of some principle or ridiculous feeling inside them (probably, not that I would know), and shun me or others if we happen to say something wrong or offend some other type who "cares" so much, and at times feel obligated to follow the popular crowd or popular feeling instead of their own bonds. It's like you think you're close with someone, until they get offended by something that has nothing to do with your relationship with them, and then treat you like you're the devil or something. I've never understood , I've never understood how people can be that way. People need to grow up and face the music, and quit making a big deal out of nothing. It's like their ego has to get involved with things they know nothing about. Why get offended by something when it has nothing to do with you?

I call this negative attribute related to because it extinguishes the knowledge and underlying strength of personal relationships, and is my biggest weakness, something I don't give a crap about. It can also seem pretty "cultish" at times if that's the word. Also people who actively use tell me that that's how you really socialize and form "meaningful" relationships with people, as though you have to properly know how to play together and suck up to "objective" connotations, and to me it's just wrong. And I've often seen them really suck at or being afraid of actually talking with someone about their interests and getting to know them, its like they just kind of sit back and ride the social roller coaster and pretend to care and think they know people, yet show them no depth. Sure maybe easily adapt and have some fun...but what's the point? Sometimes just seems waaaayy too distant and over-tactical to me, and not at all real enough. So yeah, rant.

Well I don't know for sure if it's type related, but your wall of text displays no logical sense or factual examples. As such you might not even be an valuer, and I've no clear idea of why you're posting this or just muttering to yourself.

If anything, types are more likely to forgive social slip ups because it's not so much about forming a static opinion of you, .

But mostly this is depending on the person, and unless you want to be more precise in what you're complaining about-please provide examples, then most people on the thread will struggle.

[Words]

I don't think I've read a specific example of and behaviour in this thread, it seems like grey areas of both.

I've known Fe and Fi types to judge on both behaviour and intent. I thought it was called getting to know someone.

I sure wish you guys would make it easier for me.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

When Fe types get offended by some "objective" ethical connotation, it just seems so fake to me.

It's not fake. =( We really are offended sometimes.

There's no personal relationship being threatened, there's nothing real that's threatening them or coming between us, they just chose to act like there is and jeopardize all the peace and everything we have for the sake of some principle or ridiculous feeling inside them (probably, not that I would know), and shun me or others if we happen to say something wrong or offend some other type who "cares" so much, and at times feel obligated to follow the popular crowd or popular feeling instead of their own bonds.

You're being weird, distant and introverted moody middle class like. =( Can't you just love other people and be loved in return. What the hell is wrong with you people.

It's like you think you're close with someone, until they get offended by something that has nothing to do with your relationship with them, and then treat you like you're the devil or something. I've never understood , I've never understood how people can be that way. People need to grow up and face the music, and quit making a big deal out of nothing. It's like their ego has to get involved with things they know nothing about. Why get offended by something when it has nothing to do with you?

Because people selflessly care about others.... and why do you want people to face the music? It sorta sounds like you're being unnecessarily mean to the only people on the planet that give a shit about you, which is kind of retarded. It's like 'you're the one that's being a spoiled brat, not us.'

we only do it cuz we love you.

[717495]

I guess simply saying I appreciate your really doesn't prove it for you, does it? Well it's true! Thanks for watching our backs. We will send you chocolates and an expensive christmas present.

[MatthewZ]

Care to elaborate?

[717495]

I think it has a lot to do with not recognizing your preestablished bond with someone, and taking that into consideration. Like, someone says something offensive, and the person easily gets over it and continues to care about the human himself, the personal bond that is, and also tries to care normally about everyone else and continues to cater and develop what peace has been between them, or whatever stance was had on their preexisting relationships, the depth which isn't stirred about externally, where as the person has to deal with it because its now engrained into the social dynamic, I guess some would call that the "larger picture" ethics (though to me is way too distanced from reality, definitely not seen that way with types), and that person has to be avoided temporarily, or given mean glares, etc. because of their negative contributions. Just one example, and it doesn't always turn out this way...but I have never seen types act that way, not once. seems more individually between... seems more among.

[717495]

Mind you that I'm speaking from an -PoLR perspective, because I highly doubt that egos don't ever use well, just as I know egos can sense well, and I'm definitely not saying I'm the master of . Just that from my perspective s not grasped really what so ever, even when it seems highly logical. I also know that -PoLRs suck in my eyes because of this, because they're incapable of really understanding my emotional perspectives, like beyond principles and doing the proper thing, etc.

[EyeSeeCold]

It happens both ways. When says something "offensive" the problem is that a subject is taboo for a reason, to not involve personal attachment to the subject. Thus is offended because now the discussion is focused on how close people are to each other which makes for awkwardness because feelings of hate/dislike may surface.

When says something "offensive", the problem is that the implications on the distance between people was not considered. Thus an valuer may attach a hate or dislike label to the person for offending values.

[717495]

It happens both ways. When says something "offensive" the problem is that a subject is taboo for a reason, to not involve personal attachment to the subject. Thus is offended because now the discussion is focused on how close people are to each other which makes for awkwardness because feelings of hate/dislike may surface.

When says something "offensive", the problem is that the implications on the distance between people was not considered. Thus an valuer may attach a hate or dislike label to the person for offending values.

Yeah. But it is still subjective, that is they're not going to try and perceive a relationship gone wrong they know nothing about and then hold you in bad regards. That just ruins the whole point of , though obviously the reason why they're our dual is because they expect us to hold some kind of accountability and will help us. And just like with egos, I find the latter happening more with egos than say IDs, as we can often just brush it off and ignore it because we've learned to be pissed off by that fact that we can't deal with it well, I used to care more when young but I felt it gradually move into my subconscious. But it definitely happens to me and it sucks when valuers just don't get it, and don't want to be there for you or come to your aid relationally. They often seem to rather want to either lay down the foundation or principle in a - hybrid, or just decide that you're ruining their full out and pay no heed to your feelings about the relationship or individual loyalty.