I hate Fe properness

[InnocentBystander]

Omg! Loki just killed Santa Claus!

[golden]

I continue to be fascinated by how Fi-valuers' complaints about Fe-valuers sound an awful lot like whatever complaints I might deliver about Fi-valuers, lol. That is, sometimes Fi seems fake to me, especially if it is being offered repeatedly over time by someone who greatly dislikes my Fe.

But look, maybe sometimes my Fe is fake. It ranges from (1) Fe deployed in a situation where my feelings or ideas toward another person run very deep, to (2) an important social situation in which I might step in to provide some kind of smoothing or ease, to (3) one-off instances where some dose of Fe can get something accomplished.

In the above para, item 1 describes my relationships with close friends, partners, family. As in other threads on Fe versus Fi, it was implied here that that Fe-valuers don't make real friends? Please. Example of number 1, childhood friend who suffered from psychosis for years. She called me every three or four days at the height of her illness, and she could count on me any time, day or night. She really needed what I could call Fe--doses of surface-readable emotion where nothing feels hidden.

Item 2 examples: (a) Being the maid of honor at a wedding where the bride and groom's families were greatly at odds, for three days constantly smoothing over tense interactions, giving people ways to connect, etc. (b) Being the go-to person to put authors' minds at ease and iron out their issues and worries (back when I worked in-house for a book publisher).

Item 3 example, from last night: In an interminable line at a department store, people had to leave space for others to pass through, where two aisles intersected, and every so often someone would think the line ended at that space. Once that gap was just behind me, a couple of guys approached the line and cut in. I glanced behind them and saw that the guy in back of them was boiling mad but didn't seem to know how to handle the situation. So I smiled at the two men and politely, with a light laugh, pointed out the end of the line, about 20 people back. They laughed too, apologized, and found another line. I was able to do this in a cute-n-harmless way. The pissed-off guy clearly could not have.

Maybe in some of these situations I am quite fake? But really, doesn't fakery depend on the person? Generally, in the social sense I use Fe to be helpful, so even if it looks only skin-deep, I'm doing something with the Fe because I think something matters. My friends matter to me, potentially implosive social situations matter to me, people being wronged matter to me, and if Fe is something I can use to have a positive effect, then I'll use it.

In the negative, I might use Fe to "go off" on someone. And there, I admit my wrong. Occasionally it's called for; usually not.

[EyeSeeCold]

I guess it just depends on the language you speak. I don't speak emotion so obviously emotions directed at me don't register as valid feelings. Likewise, I understand feelings as psychological distance in the form of approach, comfort and mental ease and these tell me whether feelings are real or not. Trying to bring me out of my shell with surface emotions will not work as that is not where my authenticity lies, it is located deep down at the bottom of a pit, in which you must endure the skull crushing pressure of my silent presence.

[Morcheeba]

Fe types take everything personally. Live with it.

This is a huge misnomer; but coming from someone who is polr I guess I can understand why you would think this. If anything types take everything personally, at least from what I've seen from an ENFp ex friend of mine. And, this talk about how types being always polite and cultish is just plain ridiculous and go against anything that I would value.

[Morcheeba]

I continue to be fascinated by how Fi-valuers' complaints about Fe-valuers sound an awful lot like whatever complaints I might deliver about Fi-valuers, lol. That is, sometimes Fi seems fake to me, especially if it is being offered repeatedly over time by someone w ho greatly dislikes my Fe.

I am right there with ya on this quote. I'm sure this relates to the fact of unvalued but strong functions.

[golden]

This is a huge misnomer; but coming from someone who is polr I guess I can understand why you would think this. If anything types take everything personally, at least from what I've seen from an ENFp ex friend of mine. And, this talk about how types being always polite and cultish is just plain ridiculous and go against anything that I would value.

Right (Morcheeba's post was in response to Aiss saying Fe types take everything personally).

Maybe, in line with the idea that Fi folks will commonly see Fe people as fake AND vice versa, we can consider whether Fi-valuers will view Fe-valuers as taking everything personally ... and vice versa. Or maybe when an Fe-valuer finds himself misunderstood by an Fi-valuer, he does start to take things personally ... and vice versa.

I'm not totally invested in these possibilities, just considering them.

[ashlesha]

i personally wouldnt describe Fe egos as generally taking everything personally. that really is something ive seen more with Fi egos in my experience. but thats not what i think this thread is about. i think its more about whether assessment of people is based more on subjective versus "objective" criteria, or something like that.

when Fe egos have been offended by something i've said its been more along the lines of, "thats wrong" or "youre not supposed to say that." when Fi egos have been offended, its been more like, "that hurt me because..."

[golden]

i personally wouldnt describe Fe egos as generally taking everything personally. that really is something ive seen more with Fi egos in my experience. but thats not what i think this thread is about. i think its more about whether assessment of people is based more on subjective versus "objective" criteria, or something like that.

when Fe egos have been offended by something i've said its been more along the lines of, "thats wrong" or "youre not supposed to say that." when Fi egos have been offended, its been more like, "that hurt me because..."

Ok, I get you, then, I think.

Thinking of the last time I was truly, deeply hurt by someone, it was because I feel that person had violated some basic human principles in his dealings with me. I couldn't think of any justification under the sun for his behavior. I also saw a huge gap between his persona and stated values, on the one hand, and his cruelty, on the other.

My mind kept turning it around: how is this possible? Why would anyone do that?

Often, for me, these matters boil down to WHY. If I can't understand why someone is being hurtful, I find it almost impossible to overlook and forgive it.

In that "why," I feel pain.

Does that sound like an Fe-valuing reaction to you? Or is it better described in some other way?

[ashlesha]

Ok, I get you, then, I think.

Thinking of the last time I was truly, deeply hurt by someone, it was because I feel that person had violated some basic human principles in his dealings with me. I couldn't think of any justification under the sun for his behavior. I also saw a huge gap between his persona and stated values, on the one hand, and his cruelty, on the other.

My mind kept turning it around: how is this possible? Why would anyone do that?

Often, for me, these matters boil down to WHY. If I can't understand why someone is being hurtful, I find it almost impossible to overlook and forgive it.

In that "why," I feel pain.

Does that sound like an Fe-valuing reaction to you? Or is it better described in some other way?

idk, nothing you said stands out to me as being paticularly foreign to my way of thinking so i wonder how much of this is just human nature or if you didnt say anything glaringly Ti/Fe valuing or if i'm not reading it right...lol, i'm just wandering around in the dark waving my arms here, to be honest. i only know the sorts of reactions i've gotten from Fe valuers irl and people irl arent generally so forthcoming with their inner processes.

i too find a lot resting on the why. although knowing why doesnt neccessarily help. i dont know if i would focus as much on the difference between persona and character because i'm not sure it would feel as relevant to me as the offense itself. thats the only thing i can think of where i might be different, but without all the context and everything i'm basically just bullshitting. lol.

short answer: idk lol!!!! sorry!

[golden]

Both and valuers both accuse each other of the same shit—emo, fake, shallow, contrived, passionless, manipulative, drama queens, attention whores, takes things too personally, overly concerned with petty social norms… so on, so forth.

None of which is inherently true of either IE, but most people will see it that way. In practice, it's as if they're two entirely different languages that often end up talking straight past one another.

Cool. In that case, let's create a dozen threads in the next two weeks on why Fi sucks and why Fe sucks, too.

[golden]

idk, nothing you said stands out to me as being paticularly foreign to my way of thinking so i wonder how much of this is just human nature or if you didnt say anything glaringly Ti/Fe valuing or if i'm not reading it right...lol, i'm just wandering around in the dark waving my arms here, to be honest. i only know the sorts of reactions i've gotten from Fe valuers irl and people irl arent generally so forthcoming with their inner processes.

i too find a lot resting on the why. although knowing why doesnt neccessarily help. i dont know if i would focus as much on the difference between persona and character because i'm not sure it would feel as relevant to me as the offense itself. thats the only thing i can think of where i might be different, but without all the context and everything i'm basically just bullshitting. lol.

short answer: idk lol!!!! sorry!

Heh. No worries. I will say that for me, if only someone will give me the "why," my bad feelings can almost always be resolved.

[Words]

Both and valuers both accuse each other of the same shit—emo, fake, shallow, contrived, passionless, manipulative, drama queens, attention whores, takes things too personally, overly concerned with petty social norms… so on, so forth.

None of which is inherently true of either IE, but most people will see it that way. In practice, it's as if they're two entirely different languages that often end up talking straight past one another.

Bingo.

People are fake, emo, manipulative etc, not IEs.

Some examples:

An Fi type who acts 'fake' and 'manipulative' by turning other people against a person, they do this by telling stories/making things up etc about the person (some of which might be true/some of which might be a grey area) which make other people become distant towards the person.

Or an Fi type who uses Fi to bring people together, to bring down inter-personal distance between others so that people get on and work well together (i've seen SEEs do this who are excellent managers).

Of course the SEE could do the first part, it depends on the person.

Or a Te type playing with the facts somewhat to make someone look inefficient, or using their skills to increase productivity. Or an Se type using power games to force someone out, or using their skills to foster a winning attitude for people.

etc etc, it's what people do with their stuff, personality and such not relating to type per se, at least in this matter most of the time ime/o.

Which is why i've been looking for examples in the thread, I suppose i'm wondering if what some people are referring to refers to a bullshit person or indeed an aspect of some IE.

[golden]

Bingo.

People are fake, emo, manipulative etc, not IEs.

Some examples:

An Fi type who acts 'fake' and 'manipulative' by turning other people against a person, they do this by telling stories/making things up etc about the person (some of which might be true/some of which might be a grey area) which make other people become distant towards the person.

Or an Fi type who uses Fi to bring people together, to bring down inter-personal distance between others so that people get on and work well together (i've seen SEEs do this who are excellent managers).

Of course the SEE could do the first part, it depends on the person.

Or a Te type playing with the facts somewhat to make someone look inefficient, or using their skills to increase productivity. Or an Se type using power games to force someone out, or using their skills to foster a winning attitude for people.

etc etc, it's what people do with their stuff, personality and such not relating to type per se, at least in this matter most of the time ime/o.

Which is why i've been looking for examples in the thread, I suppose i'm wondering if what some people are referring to refers to a bullshit person or indeed an aspect of some IE.

Although what you wrote is true, I have seen and experienced some serious misunderstanding between Fi and Fe valuers.

This will make me sound awful, but I can think of three Fi-valuing people I have known well who, when they cried, seemed to me like they were faking it, even though I knew they were not. Stoic, stoic, stoic, nothing, nothing, a few words, a few stifled tears that quickly dried up, then nothing, nothing, stoic. In all cases, I could not see any emotions flowing in advance and after the springing up of tears. I always found it confusing. For all of them, if tears actually came out, it was a big moment. One of them, a very constrained person, posted a Facebook update one time about something at work that led her to cry, meaning it was a big deal, and it sort of seemed self-congratulatory to me. To me the message seemed subtextually to say: "I managed to cry today--see? I'm human after all. I have real feelings."

I'm pretty sure two of those three people never saw me cry, but I had to constantly put on the brakes with them emotionally, showing very little emotion by my standards. The other person did see me cry and exhibit plenty of other emotions and clearly found it overwhelming and probably "actressy." And yet my feelings were sincere. And when my emotions found no "home" in that person, they intensified. Which was always a mess.

In general, it was just very hard to get my emotional rhythm to align with theirs and vice versa. I'm sure we mutually perceived that there was no rhyme or reason to the opposite valuers' emotional arcs. There was no way to anticipate what a response would be; I think we seemed random to each other.

[Words]

Although what you wrote is true, I have seen and experienced some serious misunderstanding between Fi and Fe valuers.

This will make me sound awful, but I can think of three Fi-valuing people I have known well who, when they cried, seemed to me like they were faking it, even though I knew they were not. Stoic, stoic, stoic, nothing, nothing, a few words, a few stifled tears that quickly dried up, then nothing, nothing, stoic. In all cases, I could not see any emotions flowing in advance and after the springing up of tears. I always found it confusing. For all of them, if tears actually came out, it was a big moment. One of them, a very constrained person, posted a Facebook update one time about something at work that led her to cry, meaning it was a big deal, and it sort of seemed self-congratulatory to me. To me the message seemed subtextually to say: "I managed to cry today--see? I'm human after all. I have real feelings."

I'm pretty sure two of those three people never saw me cry, but I had to constantly put on the brakes with them emotionally, showing very little emotion by my standards. The other person did see me cry and exhibit plenty of other emotions and clearly found it overwhelming and probably "actressy." And yet my feelings were sincere. And when my emotions found no "home" in that person, they intensified. Which was always a mess.

In general, it was just very hard to get my emotional rhythm to align with theirs and vice versa. I'm sure we mutually perceived that there was no rhyme or reason to the opposite valuers' emotional arcs. There was no way to anticipate what a response would be; I think we seemed random to each other.

I agree that serious misunderstandings do arise between Fi and Fe. I guess one of the probs for me is that I know and have known some people who I type as Fi and who I type as Fe who i've thought were great people, others not liked, so it's difficult for me to ascribe a direct inter-type relation to it. So maybe i'm messed up or something.

This will make me sound awful, but I can think of three Fi-valuing people I have known well who, when they cried, seemed to me like they were faking it, even though I knew they were not. Stoic, stoic, stoic, nothing, nothing, a few words, a few stifled tears that quickly dried up, then nothing, nothing, stoic. In all cases, I could not see any emotions flowing in advance and after the springing up of tears. I always found it confusing. For all of them, if tears actually came out, it was a big moment. One of them, a very constrained person, posted a Facebook update one time about something at work that led her to cry, meaning it was a big deal, and it sort of seemed self-congratulatory to me. To me the message seemed subtextually to say: "I managed to cry today--see? I'm human after all. I have real feelings."

lol, fwiw this has applied to me. I remember crying a few years ago, and it was weird, what I could think of at the time was, perhaps I have feelings after all, and I kinda thought maybe I could be normal, hehehe.

I dated this girl before, some F type, and after dating her for about a year I said i'd no clue about my emotions. She said it's OK cause she understands where i'm coming from. All the time we dated I don't think we spoke of feelings per se, but there was a bond of complete trust, and I was kinda pleased she could make sense of me in this regards. I don't know if that's type related or not.

Anyway, as always, enjoy reading your posts.

[Words]

Does anyone think Speilberg is an ENFp? I think the general typing is ENTp, but I kinda find it hard to see how an ENTp could have such a strong grasp on peoples emotions, eg ET, people actually gave cared about some puppet thing that died then came back to life. He's good at getting people to empathise with the characters.

(Just thinking of an example of Fi..if it is).

[Words]

K....quick post in the differences of Fi and Fe from today.

Fe type seemed much more effervescent when I was telling my stories, 'Oh, love it'!, 'awesome'!, 'Hahahaha'! (ENFj)

ENFp it started off with an 'argument' - why haven't you called me back etc, to sharing stories but with a basis of common ground, what we've been up to, and then in house jokes based on those shared experiences.

Neither is bad, it is just that one has to decide which sort of interaction is more enjoyable to oneself.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm emo, fake, and shallow - but I'm not really manipulative. At least I admit it. =D

I'm very shallow dude. It's not something I'm proud of, but I am. I just think people should look nice and be socially pleasant and kind of 'bitchy' (but not too mean) as a way to deal with their own shadow.

I just don't think being shallow is such a bad thing anymore. People always say how being shallow is so wrong. Well a lot of times when you're too deep, all you do is put people straight to sleep. I've noticed many relationships fail because both ppl wanted things to be more 'deep' instead of getting in touch with what really matters: How you look in a photo with Miley Cyrus while roundhouse kicking each other in the face.

Look, if you want to be clear on how we're supposed to handle you - then be honest about it, even if it will make straight boys make fun of you. Be emotionally honest on what gets under your skin and not- but don't attack others or project or try to moralize the entire world objectively. I'm really interested in hearing what people subjectively like and dislike, as long as they can do it in tactful responsible way.

What you eat, don't make me shit. What I eat, doesn't make you shit. Right?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

ENFp it started off with an 'argument' - why haven't you called me back etc, to sharing stories but with a basis of common ground, what we've been up to, and then in house jokes based on those shared experiences.

I've noticed enfps doing the same thing. Very subjectively off-putting to me, but I would feel guilty if I killed them so I don't. I hate empathy sometimes. It's so fucking gay. I would even feel guilty if I yelled at them and hurt their feelings. But they hurt mine. =(

[Suz]

Both and valuers both accuse each other of the same shit—emo, fake, shallow, contrived, passionless, manipulative, drama queens, attention whores, takes things too personally, overly concerned with petty social norms… so on, so forth.

None of which is inherently true of either IE, but most people will see it that way. In practice, it's as if they're two entirely different languages that often end up talking straight past one another.

LOL, i was reading through all the discussion that i missed in this thread, and was thinking i have to reiterate this!! I'm glad you did...

Then again, you were the one who taught me that!

[717495]

Do you have any good examples of that, Ashton? (what workanonics quoted)

[Suz]

Do you have any good examples of that, Ashton? (what workanonics quoted)

lol, i like my new nickname...