Should anything even be said about Enneagram type 6s since they are so contradictory?

[KazeCraven]

The thing about Enneagram fixation and fear is that you have a basic fear, or rather, perceive the world as threatening in a certain way - an image that forms in childhood. Then there are defense mechanisms, ways to deal with this world - kind of "if it looks like a nail, use a hammer", to rephrase the common saying for this purpose - to avoid suffering, which is the real motivation. From this what we call "motivations" stem, which in turn result in behavioral patterns.

For 5s, the original perception is that of invasive, intrusive world. This leads to visible focus on protecting their privacy.

For 6s, this image happens to be of the world which cannot be trusted, is going to get you if only you give it an opportunity. The key part is not "the world isn't nice", but rather "the world is deceptive". Their way of responding to it is to be on their guard, always. So they try to be self-reliant, careful, mistrustful, but can't help the pessimistic outlook that comes with this watchfulness. And while all types have an inherent fear, 6s clearly display anxiety in behavioural patterns associated with this type - worrying too much, preparing for the worst case scenario, preferring predictability, overestimating danger, not trusting easily. IMO the latter is the indirect reason for often added "loyalty".

For 7s, the world is primarily seen as limiting, forbidding. And so they can't let an opportunity pass without feeling oppressed.

5s and 7s also are based on fear, of being invaded or limited, respectively, but 6s fear is most related to everyday "fear" out of those.

I didn't expand on other examples, but I hope it give the general idea.

Hmmm. Well, that's unfortunate. If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to find myself in any of those types. I'm only on-guard in sketchy places or when I'm really invested in trying to get to something.

I propose an alternate idea for type 6: type 6s are focused on finding certainty due to inability to trust their own minds or the world and struggle with doubt. I'd argue that type 6 sp is characterized by what you say, as they are overly focused on their well-being, but that other variants would not necessarily be such. This leads to skepticism or loyalty, or if they force themselves to provide this certainty, excess thinking and analysis.

[Azeroffs]

Hmmm. Well, that's unfortunate. If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to find myself in any of those types. I'm only on-guard in sketchy places or when I'm really invested in trying to get to something.

I propose an alternate idea for type 6: type 6s are focused on finding certainty due to inability to trust their own minds or the world and struggle with doubt. I'd argue that type 6 sp is characterized by what you say, as they are overly focused on their well-being, but that other variants would not necessarily be such. This leads to skepticism or loyalty, or if they force themselves to provide this certainty, excess thinking and analysis.

The whole thing with their struggle with uncertainty is that it causes fear though. Anyone can be unsure of things, but the 6 fixation is to find something they can trust so that they don't have to be so afraid of the unknown and the unpredictable.

For a six, fear is a driving force. They live and breath anxious energy, so much so that they usually don't even realize how deeply rooted it is.

[Azeroffs]

Every single enneatype is defined by a particular fear—one so deeply rooted that a person usually doesn't realize it. Hence what causes the various types to act out in the stereotypical ways they do. You're missing the point of the E6 fixation.

I get that, but 6s actually feel paranoia. They are afraid of things in general. All types have fears, but they aren't having problems with fear itself. (except other head types)

[Azeroffs]

the head triad is also known as the fear triad, and six is in the center of it. Why do you think that that's a mischaracterization?

[Creepy-male]

Both E6s I know are constantly worried about everything, I don't see how that's a mischaracterisation on Azeroff's part.

Are you referring to theory or experience?

[Azeroffs]

I always call it the anxiety triad, which is different from fear.

It's a mischaracterization because every enneatype can be defined by a central fear. So why would we say E6's central fixation is fear itself…? That doesn't explain anything about what's really going w/ the E6.

But what's the root cause of the worrying? That seems the more interesting/important part to me, and something oft-ignored about E6.

Both.

It's just semantics.. but either way 6s are characterized by paranoia and fear caused by uncertainty and unreliablity. Heart and Gut types have their central fears, but they aren't characterized by fear. 9 is a good example of that.

It might be more clear to say that head types are motivated by fear. The other types are not. The gut and heart types are motivated by anger and shame respectively.

[Creepy-male]

This is painful to watch. Honestly it is.

EDIT

Azeroffs: "Here's my clumsily worded observation."
Ashton: "Cool. Now let me completely derail the discussion by engaging in a nitpicking contest with you over semantics, completely missing the point."

[Azeroffs]

Uh, yeah they are. Take my etype for instance—E8s are characterized by a fear of vulnerability. That's effectively the nexus upon which everything about the E8 rests. Taking this into consideration then, how is E8 any less characterized by fear than E6… ?

I get what you're saying... but eights aren't primarily dealing with the emotion of fear is what I'm saying. They don't go about an average day feeling fear and responding to it in the way that head types do.

Also, for me, it's more about hypervigilance than paranoia.

That's a good way to put it, but I wouldn't say that paranoia is a bad way to describe it either. How would you say they are different exactly?

[Creepy-male]

Woot, someone else got my words out for me

Okay, another example. We can agree I'm a Nine. In the loosest possible sense, my fixation is around the "fear" the my little inner happy bubble is going to be disrupted. Yet, day-to-day, neither I, nor any other Nine, is a very fearful or anxious person.

[Azeroffs]

Of course they don't respond to it the same way head types do (since they're not head types), but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Usually the sensation of fear gets circumvented by the type's standard defense mechanism, before awareness of the active fear can register upon the psyche—i.e., in my case, say if someone I'm close to hurts me, I'll typically get angry and yell and tell them to fuck off and die or something like this. It's a way to avoid the sense of vulnerability and feeling of weakness towards that person, because that isn't some shit I want to acknowledge.

Same story with other types. The 'fear' gets redirected into some other kind of mental state or action, to avoid coming to terms with it. Most head types don't feel actively afraid per say—some form of anxiety kicks in instead to cope in its place. E5s minimize and analytically cut off from the world. E6s get hyper-vigilant and what not. E7s re-frame and re-drect their thoughts towards more enticing possibilities. So on, so forth.

If you want to call it anxiety, that's fine. I can agree with that.. but, I'll just point out that if you're wanting to get technical, all the types feel some form of anxiety from their central fear as well. It doesn't really matter what you call it. I don't think there's any disagreement between what we're saying or any misunderstanding of the theory anyway.

[KazeCraven]

You pretty much pegged it.

Oh whoops. Checking again, I pretty much just said what you said in a different way, didn't I? At least the sp thing was new.

Hmmm. Now I'm not sure I'm a type 6 either. Oh well.

[Creepy-male]

What was wrong with Nine?

[KazeCraven]

What was wrong with Nine?

I don't really value peace of mind much, am comfortably selfish and self-absorbed, and don't really have trouble going along with others. If anything I'm too quick to put up boundaries and go do my own thing by myself because I disagree with 'the group' or the other person.

That, and I've those who know me better (and know the Enneagram better than I do) don't think I'm a type 9. I've actually been deliberately inflammatory to try to get someone to argue with me, but people have either taken it really coolly or back down too quickly.

Did I mention I very much want to get down to the bottom of things? Protecting myself with pleasing thoughts isn't my style. But I do have self-assertion issues, which is why I considered it.