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Thread: Both MBTI and Socionics are Correct?

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    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I'm clearly INTP, not INTJ, and there's no way I'm Ti dominant, in either system. How the fuck MBTI "works" for an introvert like me?

    It's interesting how you omit posts about correlations between P/J and rationality, avoiding addressing this point entirely. That's more than confirmation bias, it's blatantly ignoring evidence in front of you.
    No I didn't and I even repeated it a lot by quoting socinoko.net official socionics site own front page, and as it's been like 3 times already..well...

    MBTI: J/P = blotch = arbitrary
    Socionics: j/p = irrational vs rational

    We're trying to characterize "blotch".

    If "blotch = j/p switch for introverts" then J/P is related to irrational vs rational in a blotched way.

    And yes Aleksei is right again, INTP in MBTI is Ti Ne Si Fe, so if you are not Ti then you are MBTI INTJ which is Ni Te Fi Se.

    See, in socionics INTp is Ni Te and INTj is Ti Ne....it's reversed and there's no way you can mismatch them because both systems define functions slots #1 and #2 as the same.
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


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    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Ehm, if you're not Ti-dominant in MBTI, then you are not, in fact, INTP.
    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    And yes Aleksei is right again, INTP in MBTI is Ti Ne Si Fe, so if you are not Ti then you are MBTI INTJ which is Ni Te Fi Se.

    See, in socionics INTp is Ni Te and INTj is Ti Ne....it's reversed and there's no way you can mismatch them because both systems define functions slots #1 and #2 as the same.
    Except I'm not a J type, inside or outside, and the "outside" is supposed to DEFINE the dichotomy. Within MBTI, there's no way I'm INTJ, especially as they're described as rational and "doers".

    Judging (J)
    I use my decision-making (Judging) preference (whether it is Thinking or Feeling) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible.
    Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am).
    Do not confuse Judging with judgmental, in its negative sense about people and events. They are not related.
    The following statements generally apply to me:

    • I like to have things decided.
    • I appear to be task oriented.
    • I like to make lists of things to do.
    • I like to get my work done before playing.
    • I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline.
    • Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information.

    Perceiving (P)
    I use my perceiving function (whether it is Sensing or Intuition) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a flexible and spontaneous way of life, and I like to understand and adapt to the world rather than organize it. Others see me staying open to new experiences and information.
    Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am).
    Remember, in type language perceiving means “preferring to take in information.” It does not mean being “perceptive” in the sense of having quick and accurate perceptions about people and events.
    The following statements generally apply to me:

    • I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens.
    • I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum.
    • I like to approach work as play or mix work and play.
    • I work in bursts of energy.
    • I am stimulated by an approaching deadline.
    • Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed.
    There's also the tiny, insignificant issue of MBTI Ni being different from Jung's, as well as socionics Ni, but I guess it's as good as negligible as long as you can have your neat correlation.

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    Don't argue that you are not judging but perceiving because this J/P scale is fubar!

    In fact there's no J/P scale in socionics it's called rational vs irrational as you pointed out.

    MBTI named it this way but they also admit it was an arbitrary decision to make the whole thing coherent.

    So let's pretend for a while J/P doesn't even exist, and that we (socionics) have the valid r vs i one.

    As for Ni being defined differently could you please direct me to some evidence?

    ---
    Wikipedia for MBTI Ni in #1 : "Dominant: Introverted intuition (Ni)
    Attracted to symbolic actions or devices, Ni synthesizes seeming paradoxes to create the previously unimagined. These realizations come with a certainty that demands action to fulfill a new vision of the future, solutions that may include complex systems or universal truths. [18]"


    Wikipedia for MBTI Ni in #2 : "Ni allows ENTJs to process information and events through impressions, possibilities, and meanings, thereby helping provide ENTJs with a sense of the future. Ni contributes to the ability to grasp patterns and plans. Complex, generalized information is processed through Ni to add clarity and check for imperfections. Ni supports Te in ENTJs' pursuit of goals; ENTJs use Ni to improve a situation to make it more useful to themselves."

    Wikisocion for socionics Ni : "Ni is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time (how one event leads to another), have visions of the past and future, develop mental imagery, and see intangible hints of relationships between processes or objects.
    Types that value always like to have in mind a specific plan for how their life will develop in the future. Thus they have little time for the concept of "living for the moment" or "making the best of the present". They generally engage in pure leisure activities only for short periods of time, and even then their leisure activities generally involve a psychologically demanding or competitive aspect."


    Waiting for solid proof or significant evidence other than nitpicking.
    Last edited by KeroZen; 11-21-2010 at 10:27 AM. Reason: precision
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    ._. Aiss's Avatar
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    For one, MBTI Ni usually stresses certainty about one's feelings. Socionics claims vagueness and uncertainty, which I find far more applicable. MBTI Ni is often associated with thinking in "a-ha" moments of realization. In socionics, the lightbulb going on is more of an Ne analogy; Ni is unfolding of a process, emergence, it's somewhere beneath the surface, not so random. This can be explained by vortex vs dialectical-algorithmic thinking, too, but the point is it isn't the same, not even directly correlated.

    Also, official MBTI: Introverted Intuition: Looks at consistency of ideas and thoughts with an internal framework. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which may be hard for others to understand.

    Look, I'm not saying I don't relate to it at all or anything. Just that it's unclear, and none of MBTI functions really work for me. I tried to force-fit my thought processes into TiNeSiFe framework when self-typing INTP, and I ended up with something closely resembling dialectical-algorithmic thinking. Socionics worked like a charm.

    If you're concerned about proving functions correspondence between system, I suggest comparing Si, and contrasting it with original Jung's description. Differences are much more obvious there.

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    Maybe you're a weird ENTP. ENTPs are a rather reclusive type as far as extroverts go, so it's not unfitting that they'd be Socionics introverts (never met an ENTP ILI myself, but I've seen a few IEIs and plenty of LII-Ne's).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Alright this is constructive.

    So you are saying that because they all have slightly different definitions of their dichotomies, they both end with 8 functions, which order is the same, wich meaning is essentially the same (after the blotch), whose names are the same, compatible intertype relation types based on duality/anima|animus (as proved by typeologic.com which is a running and operational business...yes they do money while we're blablating) but they are absolutely incompatible you say?

    They smell the same shit, look the same shit, even taste the same shit, but doesn't matter how thoroughly you chew it, it isn't turning to chocolate?

    I find it hard to believe really.

    BUT

    I never said there were no difference in the words used to describe these functions, how could it be otherwise, because functions are a mental construct on top of the dichotomies. They are concepts.

    At least we know that the 3 main dichotomies are identical, thus functions should be identical too (and on paper after switch is a perfect match, excluding Keirsey)

    As for the functions doesn't fitting your own type it's unfortunate, maybe you're not LII nor ILI...but you definitely are as critical as an ILI for sure hehe!
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    The whole damn point here is that the functions are not the same. Ni and Ne appear to be semi-inverted between systems, Fe and Fi are almost completely inverted (though not quite -- I see a fair bit of annoyingly Fi PC dickery coming from some MBTI Fi people), and MBTI Si in particular resembles no Socionics function at all, though it vaguely contains elements of and .
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    I also pointed out that S in MBTI is more focused on sensing and S in socionics is more focused on power/space repartition/territory.

    But territory is kept by physical strength, by using your eyes to sense your opponents and external environment, staying alert, eye contact, roars...it's all related to senses and hence "Sensing".

    But there's no two different possible ends at the extremity of this stick; on one side you got N, and on the other side, by definition (it's a dichotomy) there can be only one single S because it's the concept of S in it's purest form.

    So I get all your points, but I feel it's nitpicking about what wording or phrasing describes your own ideal of S better.

    MBTI S can't be worse than socionics S and vice versa.

    Do we at least agree on that?
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    I never said M conversion method (if evaluable) should be as trivial as what I already described. And if it proves to be too impractical or too complex to be of any real use, then fine, at least we would have proved they are "incompatible" and we can take actions.

    Aleksei: alright, then let's focus now on trying to see how incompatible and different the functions are. Ok?

    But how could functions be different if on paper it's all symmetrical (1:1 equivalence, it's not something you can discard like that) AND even if we simplify it all by considering only the two first slots (they are after all the most documented slots in the two systems and they match) the only "essence" left is (example) :

    One system talks about a guy who is Ni Fe. Hm that's funny because my system also talks about a guy who is Ni Fe...
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    I also pointed out that S in MBTI is more focused on sensing and S in socionics is more focused on power/space repartition/territory.
    I dunno, that sounds more like domain... is about internal sensations, physical well-being.

    But anyway, the way that I use type is I divide the mind into three layers of depth (Energy Metabolism, Information Metabolism, Subconscious modeling), based respectively on Tcaud's dual-type theory (Dude may be insane, but that theory was fucking great), Model A and Jung's original functions (for which I use MBTI code and generally is what I term MBTI, as Jung did not actually invent a type coding system). Layer 1 is what you do. Layer 2 is how you do it, and layer 3 is why you do it. I find it gives a much more complete picture of the psyche than either system alone can.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Interesting.

    I challenged him a bit in the "no longer objective thread" but it's clear he's a very intelligent person.

    I can understand the urge to "fork" like in open source projects, after-all with socionics we got the "source code"...But keep in mind that new theories need men to stand behind them, and how skilled he might be, I got the impression he's been almost alone on his forum for over one year already...

    Do you know how many years it took to get MBTI and socionics where they are? And also are you aware that the "where they are" is foo. Sure it's better, but it's not main stream, and many people think it's not any better than astrology...

    So I respect the need to fork, trying to create the next unified theory and al. But I value more the fact that we already built two strong communities, which unfortunately are at war against each other at the present time.

    Forking means starting from scratch, finding a consensus means essentially doubling our forces (in fact more than that because there are more MBTI followers than socionics westerners...it's not like we can tap into the russian community easily...)
    Last edited by KeroZen; 11-21-2010 at 11:58 AM. Reason: typo
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Tcaud is smart. he's just... fucking bonkers. He seems to honestly believe that Republicans are evil.

    In fact I think he could be LSI. That sounds like an Aristocratic attitude.

    And, I'm pretty confident in my own theory, because I didn't actually fiddle around with the underpinnings behind the multiple Jungian typologies. I basically didn't touch them in fact (except for MBTI, where functions were in desperate need to be clarified and codified into something coherent), they just fit together nicely -- so long as you don't actually try to make them into something unified.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Official MBTI:
    Introverted Sensing: Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past.Stores sensory data for future use.
    Cognitive Processes (generally accepted by online MBTI communities):
    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.
    Socionics :
    Introverted sensing () is an irrational, introverted, and dynamic information element. It is also referred to as Si, S, experiential sensing, or white sensing.
    is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail.
    focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.
    In contrast to extroverted sensing (), is related to following one's own needs instead of focusing on some externally-driven conception of what is necessary to acquire or achieve. So, whereas ego types feel capable to evaluate how justified others' preferences are, ego types will try to adjust to them in any way possible (given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort), wishing to minimize conflict.
    In contrast to introverted intuition (), is about direct interaction and unity (or discord) with one's surroundings, rather than abstract process and causal links.
    Types that value prefer to spend their time doing enjoyable activities rather than straining themselves to achieve goals. They like to believe that if activities are done with enjoyment, people will give them more effort and time, and also becoming more skilled at what they are doing in the long run. They believe that goals should suit people's intrinsic needs rather than shaped by the demands and constraints of the external world, and so do not try to force others into doing things they don't want to do. They also try to be easygoing and pleasant, preferring peaceful coexistence to conflict, except when their personal well-being or comfort is directly at stake.
    Jung's introverted Sensation:
    6. Sensation
    Sensation, which in obedience to its whole nature is concerned with the object and the objective stimulus, also undergoes a considerable modification in the introverted attitude. It, too, has a subjective factor, for beside the object sensed there stands a sensing subject, who contributes his subjective disposition to the objective stimulus. In the introverted attitude sensation is definitely based upon the subjective portion of perception. What is meant by this finds its best illustration in the reproduction of objects in art. When, for instance, several painters undertake to paint one and the same landscape, with a sincere attempt to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will none the less differ from the rest, not merely by virtue of a more or less developed ability, but chiefly because of a different vision; there will even appear in some of the paintings a decided psychic variation, both in general mood and in treatment of colour and form. Such qualities betray a more or less influential co-operation of the subjective factor. The subjective factor of sensation is essentially the same as in the other functions already spoken of. It is an unconscious disposition, which alters [p. 499] the sense-perception at its very source, thus depriving it of the character of a purely objective influence. In this case, sensation is related primarily to the subject, and only secondarily to the object. How extraordinarily strong the subjective factor can be is shown most clearly in art. The ascendancy of the subjective factor occasionally achieves a complete suppression of the mere influence of the object; but none the less sensation remains sensation, although it has come to be a perception of the subjective factor, and the effect of the object has sunk to the level of a mere stimulant. Introverted sensation develops in accordance with this subjective direction. A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus. Subjective perception differs remarkably from the objective. It is either not found at all in the object, or, at most, merely suggested by it; it can, however, be similar to the sensation of other men, although not immediately derived from the objective behaviour of things. It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness -- it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas. The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the [p. 500] subjective factor has some meaning. To another, a reproduced subjective impression seems to suffer from the defect of possessing insufficient similarity with the object; it seems, therefore, to have failed in its purpose. Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them. Such a consciousness would see the becoming and the passing of things beside their present and momentary existence, and not only that, but at the same time it would also see that Other, which was before their becoming and will be after their passing hence. To this consciousness the present moment is improbable. This is, of course, only a simile, of which, however, I had need to give some sort of illustration of the peculiar nature of introverted sensation. Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event. Thus, mere sense impression develops into the depth of the meaningful, while extraverted sensation seizes only the momentary and manifest existence of things.

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Yeah, Jung's definition is long and rambling, much as you would expect from German philosophy in the late 19th/early 20th century.

    Fucking Krauts.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Where is the discussion currently at?

    I actually don't think you will find exact correlation because the main problems are:
    1.) Different perspectives, Myers adding a non-Jungian dichotomy
    2.) Different functional interpretations of behaviors due to 1.)

    For example in MBTI you have ISFP as FiSeNiTe.

    Explanation #1 For FiSe:
    ISFPs care for the world, they carry an internal feeling of love for life's creatures(Fi) and project that feeling in the physical world(Se) through activities such as dancing, art, music and other physical expressions.

    Explanation #2 Against FiSe:
    With close analysis of ISFPs and ISFJs, one can notice a difference in tendency between the two. The former is more attuned to the senses but in a self-absorbed way. Its feelings are projected outward through music, facial expressions, dance, and art, but this cannot be Fi, as the feelings are expressed externally, not internally directed. ISFJs are more likely to bottle up their feelings, instead getting by through acts of service and gift giving. In this case ISFJs are projecting their sensing outward by being physically minded when it comes to others, and keeps its feelings internal by not speaking about them. This surely could not be Fe.

    As you can see it depends on interpretation. There are thousands of people who, without a doubt, believe FiSe is accurate for ISFPs, yet there are hundreds(thousands?) of people who believe SiFe for ISFps.

    I hold that both systems capture the same type, but you have to transcend the descriptions of both systems to synthesize the essence of characters that these two systems are trying to typify. Even in my theory on the first page, you would need to use Jungian or Socionics semantics.
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    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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  16. #96
    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    I'm doing my "homework" at the moment, compiling all critics and hints I received to date.

    I'll post an updated summary of the "blotch theory" state soon, but I like to centralize it all into the SLOAN thread.

    My initial plan was to also analyze the socionics vs Big5 correlation like Crispy tried....but one project at at time (even if it couldn't be more related!)

    I gathered a lot of insightful remarks from all of you guys, some I even under-looked initially. I'm integrating it all, trying to see if it fits or if it collapses, attempting to see if your points can be pinpointed precisely enough or if by their very nature they make the problem unsolvable...

    Meanwhile, could any of you having access to Keirsey's book(s) in paper form verify he never ever talks about functions and if there is any indication that he did something different for ISxx types? (aka blotch²)

    Alternatively if someone can source it in electronic form for research purposes... pm me.
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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