Quadra Mottos

[Trevor]

Explain.

I'm just about to.

[Airman]

More on Betas and Suffering.

Perhaps it also helps to point out that betas see suffering as an inevitable consequence of experience (full experience), and as such, the fact that we continue to suffer is proof that we are still alive (that is, still capable of full experience). The only difference between SLEs and IEIs is that SLEs seek to experience or know everything external, whereas IEIs seek to experience or know everything internal.

Betas don't necessarily enjoy suffering as such... but suffering is the best route to experience, I guess.

The rebellion is just a natural consequence of seeing the chaos in things. When you notice how chaotic things are, regardless of how sane and secure they seem to be, you're eventually going to reflect that chaos in some way. The act of faith is to believe in a deeper level of order behind the chaos ("deeper magic from before the dawn of time")... but in order to get there you have to go into the abyss and keep tunneling...

Now that I think about it, both suffering and conquering are seen as inevitable by beta quadra values (especially beta irrational): conquering is necessary because things will be in a constant state of fighting, and since you're always going to be fighting, you might as well be on top.

Also, re: happiness vs. suffering, betas do prefer happiness to suffering, but they also prefer "truth" (in the idealistic Ni sense) to happiness. So if I must lie to myself to be content, I will refuse that, and rather experience the full suffering in order to experience the full truth.

Not every beta is an end times prophet, of course. This has to do with deep values, how you ultimately determine to live your life. Shrug. I'm not going to talk about this any more 'cause I'm not making sense. Sometimes I wish I could just sit in solution and think, and have my thoughts in their raw form pumped out directly into other people's brains, and they as a team would figure out the best way to communicate the thoughts in language.

Betas are never quite sure whether deltas are intuitively aware of the deeper magic from before the dawn of time (as we are intuitively aware of the deep magic from the dawn of time), or if they're just distracted by glittering surfaces. Especially INFjs. They're confusing.

That is clarifying to me. I have been wondering why Betas have this obsession with suffering, pain and hard struggle before they can actually sit back and relax and enjoy something. I broke up entirely my relation with a Buddhist teacher who is ISTJ because he was emotionally absurdly intense and violent with me, and said that it was 'to show me my mind'. I sent him an e-mail saying I wouldn't participate in his group anymore and he replied in a very typical Beta way, one of his few sentences was: "fred, the movements a person makes to become better ONLY COME THROUGH A GREAT SUFFERING". To me this is a completely distorted view of life. It's putting in life such an intensity, such a drama, that it lacks entirely. Life is boring, there is already too much suffering in sickness, old age and death, besides not getting what you want, getting what you don´t want, etc. So why add MORE suffering on top of that, just to glorify your ego afterwards, that you went through a great deal of shit, you lost both arms and one leg, became partially blind, but now, oh young Sith, you are finally a Lord of Supreme Power. Betas seem to embody Darth Vader perfectly. The guy gets all fucked up and almost dies in battle, but endures it and becomes the supreme lord of a very powerful thing later. SUCH A LOAD OF SHIT. Why go through all that suffering? Just dying would be better. Peace.

I don´t know what you mean by this 'magic before dawn of time' thing, but I know that I am very aware of a spiritual dimension in human beings. Betas seem to live life in a degree of energy which is higher than other quadras. So they at times perceive this spiritual level more easily. This is why they are related to esoteric stuff and spirituality. But really, the emphasis on having to suffer a great deal to become some sort of power overlord makes me want to throw up.

[redbaron]

But really, the emphasis on having to suffer a great deal to become some sort of power overlord makes me want to throw up.

[ashlesha]

this thing about power via suffering is something i feel very strongly about because it was one of the biggest issues between me and my IEI mother. growing up i felt like i could never hurt enough to satisfy her. it was this really fucked up dynamic where it was like she encouraged me to self-destruct, which is the opposite of what a parent is supposed to do. along with acting out in self-destructive ways with disregard to how it affected the people who loved her. granted, she was really unhealthy, and i don't think her zeal about it was typical beta behavior...but whenever i hear about how great it is to suffer and the transformational power of pain, etc., etc...it makes me really, really angry.

its one thing to genuinely be in pain because of powers outside of your control (including brain chemistry or whatever) and another thing to actively strive to be in that state or to purposefully self-destruct in pursuit of some kind of inner glory. i think the latter is supremely selfish considering how it can affect the people who care about you.

[redbaron]

this is going way further than I intended. of course we wanna be happy. suffering to suffer is ridiculous. anyway... whatever.

[silverchris9]

this thing about power via suffering is something i feel very strongly about because it was one of the biggest issues between me and my IEI mother. growing up i felt like i could never hurt enough to satisfy her. it was this really fucked up dynamic where it was like she encouraged me to self-destruct, which is the opposite of what a parent is supposed to do. along with acting out in self-destructive ways with disregard to how it affected the people who loved her. granted, she was really unhealthy, and i don't think her zeal about it was typical beta behavior...but whenever i hear about how great it is to suffer and the transformational power of pain, etc., etc...it makes me really, really angry.

its one thing to genuinely be in pain because of powers outside of your control (including brain chemistry or whatever) and another thing to actively strive to be in that state or to purposefully self-destruct in pursuit of some kind of inner glory. i think the latter is supremely selfish considering how it can affect the people who care about you.

Often, the Beta NF will see the celerity with which the Delta NF recovers [from tragedy/suffering/bad experiences] and say, "Oh, you must be unhealthy! You repressed all that shit that happened to you! You didn't wallow in your emotions long enough to figure out what exactly happened! It must not have really hurt you at all, if you recovered like that." And often, the Delta NF will see the Beta NF's wallowing and say, "Oh, you must be unhealthy! You're damaging your close relationships by staying stuck in this fog of focusing on your own emotions! You refuse to look at the bigger picture of how your attitudes are affecting your life! Instead, you just focus on you and how you feel. That's a selfish attitude." And yes, both perspectives are logical. But the fact is that the Delta NF can be quite healthy focusing on the positive and recovering, and the Beta NF can be quite healthy focusing on the negative and pursuing some kind of discovery of the self.

Not saying this was your situation, especially if your mom was ill, brain chemistry-wise, but a less extreme version of that attitude can be quite healthy and normal in betas. You don't write "This Living Hand" or "Ode on a Nightengale" or "Dejection: An Ode" by recovering from your pain as fast as possible. You've got to spend some time down there, while you have access to these very elementary parts of you. Again, I know this can be taken to an unhealthy extreme. But it can also be very normal, I think.

[ashlesha]

this is going way further than I intended. of course we wanna be happy. suffering to suffer is ridiculous. anyway... whatever.

i only responded to this thread because the topic brought forth heavy feelings for me and i kind of had to vomit something out. my post wasn't directed at anything you said and it wasn't even necessarily a comment about betas, hah. sorry if i put anyone on the defense; that wasn't my intention.

Not saying this was your situation, especially if your mom was ill, brain chemistry-wise, but a less extreme version of that attitude can be quite healthy and normal in betas. You don't write "This Living Hand" or "Ode on a Nightengale" or "Dejection: An Ode" by recovering from your pain as fast as possible. You've got to spend some time down there, while you have access to these very elementary parts of you. Again, I know this can be taken to an unhealthy extreme. But it can also be very normal, I think.

it's hard to get past my knee-jerk reactions, but i can see the validity of this, sure.

(that was also a really interesting post, btw.)

[1981slater]

Robocop 1987 and quadra mottos

Alpha: Role models are important
Beta: I'd buy that for a dollar
Gamma: Good business is where you find it
Delta: Police officers don't strike

[FDG]

this is going way further than I intended. of course we wanna be happy. suffering to suffer is ridiculous. anyway... whatever.

Yeah it's hard to model these perspectives with words, without giving value judgments.

I'd personally say that betas want to maximize count(max[happiness]). So what's important is that there's a large number of extreme events where full emotionality is expressed. It doesn't truly matter if big slumps are present inbetween, as long as the number of extremely positive moments is high.

Deltas, otoh, seem to want to maximize the integral of happiness. Which means that any strong negative slump will severly impact the overall objective, even if such slump is followed by an almost equally strong emotion.

Alternatively, it might be said that betas are less emotionally risk-averse than deltas (from this perspective, they can represent two extremes). Which means that betas will be more likely to enter a situation with a high potential maximum emotional payoff, even if there's a nonzero probability of a negative experience, while deltas would prefer a more secure emotional payoff.

[redbaron]

Alternatively, it might be said that betas are less emotionally risk-averse than deltas (from this perspective, they can represent two extremes). Which means that betas will be more likely to enter a situation with a high potential maximum emotional payoff, even if there's a nonzero probability of a negative experience, while deltas would prefer a more secure emotional payoff.

very well-stated, FDG.

[Lobo]

Idk, but reading through this thread about betas liking emotional extremes and whatnot makes me think of at least a few IEIs I know who are sort of misanthropic homebodies who prefer to stay in their rooms playing RPGs, lol.

[jewels]

I guess each word is a dyad (or whatever the name is):

Reflect (TiNe) Delight in (FeSi)
Suffer (NiFe) Conquer (SeTi)
Collaborate (NiTe) Acquire (SeFi)
Protect (FiNe) Help (TeSi)

These quadra mottos are... rather vague and incomplete. Not bad though.

This is awesome! I agree. I definitely try to protect people, emotionally anyway.

As for Beta suffering...ya. My ENFj sister worked at McDonalds in HS because she thought it would "build character." Instead I just saw her get bitchier and she'd come home covered in french fry grease (wearing the shoes she'd borrowed from me!) She worked at Denny's after college, again to "build character." However, her character never really seemed to improve, and now she tolerates her professional job, but I don't think loves it -- come on Betas, it's not all about suffering. Character can be built through following your passions as well as your pains...

[redbaron]

This is awesome! I agree. I definitely try to protect people, emotionally anyway.

As for Beta suffering...ya. My ENFj sister worked at McDonalds in HS because she thought it would "build character." Instead I just saw her get bitchier and she'd come home covered in french fry grease (wearing the shoes she'd borrowed from me!) She worked at Denny's after college, again to "build character." However, her character never really seemed to improve, and now she tolerates her professional job, but I don't think loves it -- come on Betas, it's not all about suffering. Character can be built through following your passions as well as your pains...

Seems like your sister needs her dual (or someone she trusted) to bust her out of that rat race and tell her it's okay to figure out and follow her real dreams. THEN she can suffer for the dream that is worthy of suffering for.

[Aleksei]

Beta: to suffer and conquer.

That's gay. Why would I wanna suffer? A better Beta motto would be:

"For Victory! And for the Lulz!"

[silverchris9]

Yeah it's hard to model these perspectives with words, without giving value judgments.

I'd personally say that betas want to maximize count(max[happiness]). So what's important is that there's a large number of extreme events where full emotionality is expressed. It doesn't truly matter if big slumps are present inbetween, as long as the number of extremely positive moments is high.

Deltas, otoh, seem to want to maximize the integral of happiness. Which means that any strong negative slump will severly impact the overall objective, even if such slump is followed by an almost equally strong emotion.

Alternatively, it might be said that betas are less emotionally risk-averse than deltas (from this perspective, they can represent two extremes). Which means that betas will be more likely to enter a situation with a high potential maximum emotional payoff, even if there's a nonzero probability of a negative experience, while deltas would prefer a more secure emotional payoff.

+15.

Also, given long-term Ni perspective, you can get what I was talking about in my crazy post above, which is this idea that through pain you can get to this crazy ultimate super happiness, i.e., I am willing to endure any amount of suffering on earth for perfect happiness in heaven (or whatever). Which is only crazy if you're wrong.

[ashlesha]

if what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, then what stops you from throwing yourself into the fire? isn't that the logical next step? or only if you're crazy? lol

[Creepy-male]

Or breaking your arms.

[Words]

if what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, then what stops you from throwing yourself into the fire? isn't that the logical next step? or only if you're crazy? lol

If it doesn't kill you the fire can still leave you permanently scarred.

I doubt this is Beta, rather just some people being overly dramatic.

[Absurd]

If it doesn't kill you the fire can still leave you permanently scarred.

Or inflamed ...

[ashlesha]

If it doesn't kill you the fire can still leave you permanently scarred.

this is my thought as well.

I doubt this is Beta, rather just some people being overly dramatic.

this is part of what i'm trying to figure out.

[EyeSeeCold]

Alpha
+
"Nothing is impossible"

+
"Waiter, bring me more wine!"

Beta
+
"My way or the highway" or "Sergeant who?, listen bub.."

+
"I wish I lived during the Middle Ages..." or "Chivalry is dead"

Gamma
+
"That's a waste of money" or "I don't know, I'm kind of busy right now" or "What's the point?"

+
"Me against the world"

Delta
+
"Stand back, I can do this."

+
"The world would be a much better place if.." or "Can't we all just get along?" or "We'd make such a nice couple.."

[redbaron]

+
"Chivalry is dead"

I've said this before.

[DirectorAbbie]

+
"Stand back, I can do this."

if what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, then what stops you from throwing yourself into the fire? isn't that the logical next step? or only if you're crazy? lol

Not necessarily stronger, but wiser. If you're already wise enough to know that throwing yourself in the fire is a bad idea, there's no need to do it.

[ashlesha]

+
"The world would be a much better place if.." or "Can't we all just get along?" or "We'd make such a nice couple.."

i can see how all of these match with the functions, but i like the third one the most because it's the most representative of how i think. and the least trite. :wink:

Not necessarily stronger, but wiser. If you're already wise enough to know that throwing yourself in the fire is a bad idea, there's no need to do it.

i think this is totally true, but doesn't really answer my question. maybe my question only made sense in my own head, though.

[717495]

creative types: "anything is possible, not if I can help it."

[CILi]

creative types: "anything is possible, not if I can help it."

I like the idea, but don't really get it yet.

What is it about __-Creative that would try to prove __ wrong?

[717495]

Perhaps its __-creative that wants to prove __-dominant wrong, in some ways. Like limiting its natural function.

[Park]

if what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, then what stops you from throwing yourself into the fire? isn't that the logical next step? or only if you're crazy? lol

Yeah, that ole saying never really sat well with me.

If it doesn't kill you the fire can still leave you permanently scarred.

Yup.

[krieger]

Betans don't even believe that. It's all bullshit. You can't make socionical generalizations that override the most deeply ingrained ones in human nature.

[EyeSeeCold]

Betans don't even believe that.

You can't make socionical generalizations

[Creepy-male]

+
"Waiter, bring me more wine!"

"Relax, have fun, be merry!" I think would be better.

[redbaron]

"Relax, have fun, be merry!" I think would be better.

my personal favorite is "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!"

[Trevor]

my personal favorite is "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!"

You know something we don't?

[Creepy-male]

my personal favorite is "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!"

Saying that "tomorrow we die" is a certainty is too for the humble Alpha SF

[redbaron]

Saying that "tomorrow we die" is a certainty is too for the humble Alpha SF

I know, I've said things like that to SEIs and it's clearly too morbid or intense or something for them. And it's funny though cause I've got their attention at first and then when I mention death, their eyes kinda get big and they take a step back. ahhahahaahahahhaa But it's also like what's the big deal. First off, it's a joke. But secondly, we all are gonna die, which is precisely why it's both true and funny. And "tomorrow" doesn't really exist. It's just some time in the future. So face it already. LIKE A MAN.

[EyeSeeCold]

But secondly, we all are gonna die, which is precisely why it's both true and funny. And "tomorrow" doesn't really exist. It's just some time in the future. So face it already. LIKE A MAN.

LIKE A GAMMA

[Creepy-male]

to suffer and conquer sounds alot more like some Sadomascistic bullshit than an actual worldview or philosophy, I'm clicking in my buzzer and calling bullshit on these mottos.

[Creepy-male]

if what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, then what stops you from throwing yourself into the fire? isn't that the logical next step? or only if you're crazy? lol

Well, being a burn victim is going to make you quite resilient to pain emotionally if you survive, since there is probably nothing worse to experience than being burned alive.

However the deeper question is what is the purpose of strength, because your basically assuming everyone wants to be strong.... and many people would not want to be strong, especially if it required being burnt alive. I think people would say, "nah dude I'm fine being a little weaker, you can go and burn yourself alive and be all strong, thats fine, I'm cool like I am right now, but thanks for offering". Usually people have goals they pursue and challenges put in their way to achieving these, these challenges test them and cause suffering which if it does not kill them, makes them stronger, allowing them to achieve their goals. If your goal is to have fire resistant skin, well then by all means it makes sense to eventually test yourself by fire.... but if you couldn't give two shits about having fire resistant skin, then probably its not worth it.

[FDG]

Well, being a burn victim is going to make you quite resilient to pain emotionally if you survive, since there is probably nothing worse to experience than being burned alive.

That's a myth. It's been proveN (well, experimentally of course) that experiencing extremely high levels of pain leads to heightened sensitivity, basically because the pain receptors become much more active. This is one of the main resons why anesthetics are indispensabile.

[Trevor]

That's a myth. It's been proveN (well, experimentally of course) that experiencing extremely high levels of pain leads to heightened sensitivity, basically because the pain receptors become much more active. This is one of the main resons why anesthetics are indispensabile.

Irreparable damage. PTSD.

There seems to be an optimal, somewhere in the middle, range regarding this stuff(regarding many things, actually). Too much pain and it screws up your ability at XYZ. Not enough pain and it also screws up your ability at XYZ.