Functional Explanation

[Expat]

I don't know about that. Ni dominant types from my experiences are usually poorer judgers of "time" in this sense then the ESxJs. You are talking about clock/second/moment/sequential time stuff which is more Judgment related. Perceivers often get "lost" in the flow of time. Exactly like what Ni does. Ni gets stuck in their own little world of passing time, past and future, processes, etc... that they often lose hold of the "actual" clock-driven time.

Actually I thought that, rather than being poorer judgers of time, they sort of "make" their own time-flow precisely because is dominant.

Whereas ESTjs seem to be the most likely type to need a rigid schedule to feel comfortable, and ESFjs, to be late (or too early) if they are left to take decisions on such matters on their own.

[Creepy-]

And it also has to do with time flow as in real time, which is why the types with PoLR, ESTjs and ESFjs, tend to be late, or early, and tend to give themselves rigid schedules because they don't trust their own perception of the time needed to do something.

I don't know about that. Ni dominant types from my experiences are usually poorer judgers of "time" in this sense then the ESxJs. You are talking about clock/second/moment/sequential time stuff which is more Judgment related. Perceivers often get "lost" in the flow of time. Exactly like what Ni does. Ni gets stuck in their own little world of passing time, past and future, processes, etc... that they often lose hold of the "actual" clock-driven time.

I think the point was that dominants trust their own perception of time, don't stress about minutes and seconds (unless they black out, they seem to get stressed about time they never experienced) and unlike those with weak , they don't mind waiting.

[Jonathan]

I'm going to offer a completely different explanation of and time. Basically, suppose you have someone who isn't ...someone who's ENTp or INTj, or some type like that.

And the person encounters and INTp or INFp. What that person sees is someone walking around without saying much, and not really communicating that much in facial expressions about what he or she is thinking. Then the person tries to have a conversation with the INp, and if the INp doesn't feel much connection with the interlocutor, he or she doesn't say much.

However, the person notices that the INp seems to be one or two steps ahead when it comes to certain topics.

So the people who came up with this whole thing assumed that the INp does nothing but meditate and think all day about what came before and what's going to happen next. And when that theory was mentioned to INps, they, being fairly open-minded people, said, "Hmm, I guess maybe that's what I do."

Hence was born "the intuition of the time."

The notion relegates INps either to the role of mystics, or that of project managers, devoting all their perception to the relatively pragmatic task of considering what's going to happen next so that they can prepare for it and act accordingly.

Perhaps I'm being unfair....Although a number of people believe I'm INTp, this view of INp is something that I just simply can't identify with.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Jonathan]

Well, the one thing I can see about the idea of "intuition of the time" that has any sense to it is that if you think about intuition's role as supporting judgment, then you can kind of see it.

That Gulenko article you posted, http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...s%2fvyraz.html, while the exercises it proposes are silly, does explain the concept of statics vs. dynamics rather well. is a static systematization of one's understanding. It looks at the whole structure, existing outside of time. is a dynamic, operational systematization, existing within a given context...a given situation in time. Accordingly then in a certain sense exists in time and is thereby called dynamic, and exists outside of time and is thereby called static. Of course, we can generalize the "time" way of seeing things to mean "a part of the whole, in which it appears that action takes place."

Hence, as we go through, step by step, exploring, understanding, testing this whole thing, our intuition appears and our logic appears . When we see the system as a whole, our intuition changes and appears and our logic appears . That's the one way of understanding it that makes sense to me at the moment.

[Jonathan]

Expat: Whereas ESTjs seem to be the most likely type to need a rigid schedule to feel comfortable, and ESFjs, to be late (or too early) if they are left to take decisions on such matters on their own.

I think the situation with ESjs is actually pretty simple. If is intuition of the time, then is sensing of the time.

After all, is dynamic and supports the dynamic functions and just as much as does.

Here's an interesting question....What classical composers had the most clear, unambiguous expression of being dominant? I'll bet that one will find that those have an excellent, excellent sense of the time.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Rocky]

I think you guys are seriously warping the meaning of "intuition of time". All intuition of time means is that the person lives in their own fantasy world. It has nothing to do with being timely.

And ESxJs are very good judges of clock-driven time. It doesn't have anything to do with what kind of perceiving function they have; perceiving functions don't measure time, period. I would definatly not agree with ESxJs being either late or too early. If anyone is late all the time, it's the INxPs to be honest.

[Expat]

From the PoLR description in the ESFj profile by Stratieyskaya:

Greatly it does not love to be late. He tries to hide its incapacity to calculate time: for example, if very strongly it is late to some measure, then frequently it prefers completely to not go. It survives, when they criticize it for the insufficient punctuality. It always is nervous, when for it it is necessary to coordinate the time: to it it is very difficult to perceive the course of time, it is difficult to calculate its expenditure (work, connected with the coordination of time to representatives of this type is clearly contrasted).

And from the ESTj description:

Representatives of this type frequently say that even if a day were forty eight hour, by them nevertheless did not be sufficient.

That volume of work, which they usually will intend to carry out, is not plotted in the periods assigned by them. The problem Of shtirlitsev in the fact that they do not desire to allow time factor. Time - their bitten enemy: they want to bring work to the irreproachable quality, but periods this do not allow. They compose to themselves a maximally stressed operating schedule, therefore, however accurately they planned their time, constantly occur cover plates in its distribution.

I think is also indeed an intuition of time, although not only; although it definitely does not mean that dominant types will be necessarily timely and weak types will be late.

[Rocky]

The description is wrong when it says that they do not trust their ability to calculate time. It is right though when it says that they don't like to waste time. INxPs are the biggest time wasters... ESxJs despise it. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the ability to stay on top of the clock, being able to be on time, and calculating the tick-tick-tick-tock. ESxJs are always on the clock. INxPs view the passing of time as some sort of distant existance. This is why they can be late a lot. They can't judge, nor do they seem to care about, the actual, real world, clock-driven time passing second by second.

[Expat]

The description is wrong when it says that they do not trust their ability to calculate time. It is right though when it says that they don't like to waste time. INxPs are the biggest time wasters... ESxJs despise it. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the ability to stay on top of the clock, being able to be on time, and calculating the tick-tick-tick-tock. ESxJs are always on the clock. INxPs view the passing of time as some sort of distant existance. This is why they can be late a lot. They can't judge, nor do they seem to care about, the actual, real world, clock-driven time passing second by second.

I think the description is accurate. It is consistent with my observations.

Of course ESXjs can stay on the clock; anyone who has a clock can check it to make sure they are on time. But I lived closely with two ESFj women, and they had a big trouble with evaluating the passage of time in the broader sense, or calculating how much time was needed for something.

I think the key difference is that INXps don't care about it, and ESXjs do.

[Rocky]

But basically what it is is judging/perceiving differences, not one specific function.

[Joy]

What a productive thread hijack,

[kopernikus]

The description is wrong when it says that they do not trust their ability to calculate time. It is right though when it says that they don't like to waste time. INxPs are the biggest time wasters... ESxJs despise it. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the ability to stay on top of the clock, being able to be on time, and calculating the tick-tick-tick-tock. ESxJs are always on the clock. INxPs view the passing of time as some sort of distant existance. This is why they can be late a lot. They can't judge, nor do they seem to care about, the actual, real world, clock-driven time passing second by second.

Yes, INxPs waste time, ESxJs do not. That doesn't mean that INxPs can't calculate time... I'd say it's rather the opposite. They might not care as much about the actual time passing, but they're still good at estimating it.
Yet if you ask an ESxJ (or even ISxPs I feel, don't know about other types?) to estimate how long something will take, they'll say they don't know or they will be wrong... :wink:

For the INxP everything exists within an abundance of time, and so they can always do an action later as long as they don't see any danger from postponing it. Here danger counts more in the future than the present. They might take a blow right now if they think it will be worth it over time.

Since for people with weak Ni there is only now, every action exists "either now or never". Postponing an action destroys it.

[Jonathan]

I think you guys are seriously warping the meaning of "intuition of time". All intuition of time means is that the person lives in their own fantasy world. It has nothing to do with being timely.

I fear that what we're really talking about is two completely different conceptions of what and -dominant types are like. These different conceptions appear to coexist within Socionics, without a clear resolution.

For example, despite everyone's insistence that INps are the sort who are in their own world and hence the most likely to be late (or not even show up), in fact the person who many people seem to think is among the most authoritative describers of type, Stratiyevskaya, clearly describes INTp as someone who has a gift for being on time. For example (oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=2871):

It is possible to only envy so that it never anywhere hurries and never anywhere it is late. (it has even namerenno to be late it is not obtained). Transport confusions and "plug" on the roads, similarly, in no way complicate its life: despite not on what, it always arrives in time.

Is it the automatic translation that makes it appear that S...skaya thinks the INTps have a unique gift to by on time with little effort? Or is it that S...skaya is thinking of a different kind of person in descriping the INTp...perhaps someone who others might perceive to be more of a "J" type?

To fit the S...skaya descriptions, many I+N+T+P people would probably be an introverted subtype of ENTp.

[Rocky]

My Dad's INTP, and he nevers hurries, true. But he's never ever ever ever on time for anything ever ever ever. Seriosuly. Not once. In my life. Ever. No exaggeration. Ever. My Dad was late for a surpirse party at the house next door. Did I say he was never on time?


The description is an example of misinterpretation. Ni "time" is make-believe time, fantsy world time. Or something like that. But not "timely" time.

[implied]

asdlfkj;lkj

[Jonathan]

yeah, i have to say, ENTjs/INTps are late quite often.

Why would ENTjs be late? These are people who are decisive, like structure, are well in-tuned with the world around them (at least in terms of understanding it and being interested in it), good at strategic action, good at being productive, inclined to know when they're finished with something.

Unless my conception of ENTjs is wrong, I would expect that they would be on time, while INTps would be late (S..kaya's description notwithstanding).

[detail]

I already said in this thread that was more like fluid intuition and not the intuition of time, you guys should read posts more carefully.

[Jonathan]

I already said in this thread that was more like fluid intuition and not the intuition of time, you guys should read posts more carefully.

I understand this was said. At issue is whether S..kaya's description suggests that there are two different conceptions about in Socionics...two different schools, so to speak.

(By the way, the idea of as "fluid intuition" is a good one...It's just that I'm bothered that the great S..kaya seems to emphasize the idea of being on time.)

[discojoe]

Why does every functional discussion break down into jargon? Totally unproductive, just like me bumping this thread.

"I think, like, the functions are like a flower and as the pettles bloom they need sunshine and tlc. And when the sun goes down is like a dream and the cells of the flower flow chaotically and its love for the world is expressed through its beautiful colors ."


"...what about and ?"

"What's that?"