Caring for your Delta NF (INFj & ENFp)

[UDP]

You can't be a great lover and a killer at the same time.

What makes you say that?


and,



haven't heard that one in a while

[Singu]

...because it's contradictory.

[Jarno]

You can't be a great lover and a killer at the same time.

So every soldier that has fought in dessert storm is a bad lover?

[UDP]

where did that youtube video I posted go??

...because it's contradictory.

"The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference"

[somavision]

binary oppositions are a load of balls.

[UDP]

floattttttt

[Singu]

So every soldier that has fought in dessert storm is a bad lover?

But that's not what Ryu meant. Look... I'm not talking about it as a general idea or a philosophy. It's about the moral integrity of a character. You can't hold two contradictory beliefs at the same time, and chase those two ideals at the same time. This is very complex and it's a difficult thing to realize, so I won't blame anyone for not noticing.

[UDP]

But that's not what Ryu meant. Look... I'm not talking about it as a general idea or a philosophy. It's about the moral integrity of a character. You can't hold two contradictory beliefs at the same time, and chase those two ideals at the same time. This is very complex and it's a difficult thing to realize, so I won't blame anyone for not noticing.

What the fuck are you talking about?
Humans are humans, not robots. The world is and seemingly has been for some time been bursting at the seams with people who hold contradictory beliefs, or temporary beliefs, or flip flop.


Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


perhaps ideally people ought to have clear ideals, but in reality, they don't. How many people commit adultery? How many people profess ideals or values and tell themselves they act on them but don't? Etc etc etc.

There is much delusion.

[Singu]

Well never mind the fact that "everybody does it", it still concerns you. There is more freedom and independence and strength to be gained from being able to choose genuine goals and ideals that you can strive for. Having conflicting and contradictory beliefs are a complete waste of energy, because one can not possibly arrive at two opposing destinations at the same time, without feeling like being torn apart or into pieces, like being tugged into two different directions at the same time.

[UDP]

This is true.

[Minde]

Well never mind the fact that "everybody does it", it still concerns you. There is more freedom and independence and strength to be gained from being able to choose genuine goals and ideals that you can strive for. Having conflicting and contradictory beliefs are a complete waste of energy, because one can not possibly arrive at two opposing destinations at the same time, without feeling like being torn apart or into pieces, like being tugged into two different directions at the same time.

I agree, and on a related tangent, this is why I believe that too different values will drive/tear relationships apart, especially in a romantic ones but even in close friendships.

[UDP]

I agree, and on a related tangent, this is why I believe that too different values will drive/tear relationships apart, especially in a romantic ones but even in close friendships.

I sort of doubt that two people will ever see things exactly the same way.

[Minde]

I sort of doubt that two people will ever see things exactly the same way.

I would doubt that also. Please note my use of the word "too" as in "it's too much."

If you like, I can rephrase. People with values that are too deeply different from each other will end up apart or in lots of pain.

[Diaphanous]

I don't hold any ill feelings or resentments about the relationships; I just wish I had known why our relationship wasn't whole and could express my feelings in words and break things off sooner.

I'm the same!!!

[Beautiful sky]

I don't hold any ill feelings or resentments about the relationships; I just wish I had known why our relationship wasn't whole and could express my feelings in words and break things off sooner.

I'm the same!!!

[moredhel]

What a warm fuzzy thread .

I thought Deltas were supposed to be more "independent". They don't care too much about mushiness... They don't care too much about romanticism. They are somewhat self-sufficient. Or they should be. Well, everybody should be more independent. Whatever.

I'm not sure what gave the impression Deltas don't care about romance, I agree that it is more subdued than passionate Beta romance and less cutesy than alpha romance but it still very much exists.

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas? I consider myself self sufficient but I've never shied away from a relationship and have only placed importance on independence in relationships that weren't working.

Unfortunately I've never dated a delta-NF so I can't reply to OP, but I like what I've read so far .

[Suz]

I don't hold any ill feelings or resentments about the relationships; I just wish I had known why our relationship wasn't whole and could express my feelings in words and break things off sooner.

I'm the same!!!

I'm the same as well actually...

[Galen]

I'm the same!!!

I'm the same as well actually...

When I fall for someone, I fall hard. I think I also have the tendency to get too attached to people I'm really interested in, so there's always at least some element of resentment in there when I put my all into something and it doesn't work.

[DirectorAbbie]

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas?

Yes and no. I believe I am fully capable of taking care of myself in any situation. But that's kinda...boring. I've always wanted a family of my own, and independence doesn't go well with that.


A somewhat-relevant topic:

[Beautiful sky]

What a warm fuzzy thread .

I thought Deltas were supposed to be more "independent". They don't care too much about mushiness... They don't care too much about romanticism. They are somewhat self-sufficient. Or they should be. Well, everybody should be more independent. Whatever.

I'm not sure what gave the impression Deltas don't care about romance, I agree that it is more subdued than passionate Beta romance and less cutesy than alpha romance but it still very much exists.

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas? I consider myself self sufficient but I've never shied away from a relationship and have only placed importance on independence in relationships that weren't working.

Unfortunately I've never dated a delta-NF so I can't reply to OP, but I like what I've read so far .

No. I'm not independent. I depend on my relationships for the sense of security and love. I am, like you, self sufficient. I know how to provide for my well being and the well being of the individuals I love and want to take care of, this is why I've always striven for higher education and a possibility of a career which would provide me with a secure job to live on my own, to purchase my necessities and do more with my life (to have quality of life).

Without relationships, I feel cold and lonely. I feel as though it's what's important in life and to me. It's one aspect that gives meaning to my life.

At the same time, though, I can look quite independent because I have what I own and because I don't rely on anyone else to take care of me financially. I travel and I can pay for these things with my own money.

So every soldier that has fought in dessert storm is a bad lover?

But that's not what Ryu meant. Look... I'm not talking about it as a general idea or a philosophy. It's about the moral integrity of a character. You can't hold two contradictory beliefs at the same time, and chase those two ideals at the same time. This is very complex and it's a difficult thing to realize, so I won't blame anyone for not noticing.

Short answer: Delta's ignore Ti and they are contradictory especially the ST's and IEE's of this quadra. I'm a bit more internal focused and notice my contradictions in logic a bit better, albeit not as well as Ti egos.

[Lobo]

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas? I consider myself self sufficient but I've never shied away from a relationship and have only placed importance on independence in relationships that weren't working.

Unfortunately I've never dated a delta-NF so I can't reply to OP, but I like what I've read so far .

I think that being E6 counterphobic makes me look at that question as more of a challenge rather than a fact. I fear being dependent to the point of vulnerability and being devastated emotionally, so I make it a point to be emotionally independent. It's like I just have to be, and have trained myself to be it for most of my life. It might seem unnecessary to a lot of people to endure things without help, but I do it to prove myself that I can handle it. I only shy away from relationships when I'm afraid of hurting the other person further down the road though.

[Suz]

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas? I consider myself self sufficient but I've never shied away from a relationship and have only placed importance on independence in relationships that weren't working.

I'm EXTREMELY independent. I do, however, love my friends and seek my soul mate and definitely have that need for companionship and relationship. However, my friends all tend to be independent people as well, and any guy who shows signs of trying to curb my independence is a no-go--it's a real turn off for me.

I imagine that my soul mate would also be an independent person.

[moredhel]

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas? I consider myself self sufficient but I've never shied away from a relationship and have only placed importance on independence in relationships that weren't working.

I'm EXTREMELY independent. I do, however, love my friends and seek my soul mate and definitely have that need for companionship and relationship. However, my friends all tend to be independent people as well, and any guy who shows signs of trying to curb my independence is a no-go--it's a real turn off for me.

I imagine that my soul mate would also be an independent person.

Actually now that you mention it my sister who's an IEE is very independent although not always self sufficient . Actually makes me wonder about SLI's, I associate IEE's a lot with travel and adventure, frequently seeking out new experiences and perhaps independence as well. Is there something about an SLI in particular that makes them fit well into that scenario?

Also is my association roughly accurate? I only know a few IEE's to go off.

[Suz]

I'm EXTREMELY independent. I do, however, love my friends and seek my soul mate and definitely have that need for companionship and relationship. However, my friends all tend to be independent people as well, and any guy who shows signs of trying to curb my independence is a no-go--it's a real turn off for me.

I imagine that my soul mate would also be an independent person.

Actually now that you mention it my sister who's an IEE is very independent although not always self sufficient . Actually makes me wonder about SLI's, I associate IEE's a lot with travel and adventure, frequently seeking out new experiences and perhaps independence as well. Is there something about an SLI in particular that makes them fit well into that scenario?

Also is my association roughly accurate? I only know a few IEE's to go off.

I do, in fact, like to explore and travel and go on interesting trips and sign up for interesting new activities. That's probably what my sense of adventure amounts to--not so much mountain climbing or skydiving or things like that... I'm actually a little scared of those things (and probably for good reason, since i'm pretty clumsy and accident prone). My sister (EII) and mom (probably SEI) both consider me very adventurous, but they are very reluctant to budge from home. They often try to convince me not to go, and give me 1000 reasons why not, which is really irritating to me because i've already considered those things and decided i'll be ok.

That said, I sometimes wish I had a companion to go with me on these "adventures". I hate staying in hotels and the process of traveling is exhausting, so i end up not pursuing a lot of great ideas i come up with. I think an SLI would probably help a lot with these issues. From what i've experienced so far, SLIs are very practical people and invariably manage to make my life easier.

However, my need for a relationship is more about feeling a connection with someone, feeling close to them (figuratively--in spirit, not necessarily physically, though the latter is nice as well) and having someone feel that way towards me. I guess that's the best i can describe it right now.

[UDP]

remarks:


- Delta NFs seem to prefer, by and large, that someone else's needs are more apparent than their own. They seem to very much not enjoy the 'spotlight'. Don't overfocus on appeasing their needs, either, for it's just as bad as not caring at all. (although that goes for most relationships...). I think delta NFs can get into trouble because they so much prefer other people's needs being met and catering to them that they don't really value or understand their own needs, save, perhaps, the most standard requirements of 'relational fidelity'.

- Delta NFs often don't seem to understand attraction, other than thinking that looking good is a matter of fixing their hair or wearing pretty clothing. Perhaps that is more so for females, but, they seem to be particularly un-focused on more carnal or earthy elements of attraction. To me that can be a problem because they don't understand how that influences their interactions with others. And it's also related, perhaps, to 'delta modesty'.

- This next point may be specifically something that makes sense to me, because of how I operate, but.... delta NFs seem fairly impressionable in terms of what mood and energy level you are in, particularly in terms of spending a lot of time around them. They 'mold' to your way of being easily, or perhaps a better way of saying it may be 'without trying'. Over time, if things are too depressive, they will become that way, or simply become "acclimated" to being depressive around you, if you give off that energy. The same is true, perhaps, for positive feelings as well.

(I think becoming more sensitive or aware of that can be a good thing for T types, especially ones that don't value Fe, to be aware of.)


- Delta NFs need to be allowed to feel strong an independent, even when they are neither. Sometimes they are too naive about their own strengths and weaknesses to realistically assess situations. Delta NFs can tend to extremes about how they deal with this - being extremely modest and unambitious, or being 'over confident' and assuming their positive attitude, can-do spirit, and open-mindedness will win the day.

- If you want to piss off a delta NF, imply their weakness. Don't ever write a paragraph like I did above, or they'll have a 'defiant' reaction. Ironically, how they handle such remarks and situations is particularly characteristic of strong Fi/Fe and Ne, and weak Se.... infantiles.

- Delta NFs may be particularly unskilled at understanding diverse conceptual matters (or especially practical matters) that requires careful examination of specific individual particles, especially if the particles are specific and individual nature or orientation or purpose. It can be too "mundane" or "tedious". They tend to prefer their own, personalized intuitive conceptions of how things work, and can cling to them stubbornly unless there is very thoroughly detailed explanations that addresses that which they are (perhaps subconsciously) avoiding. All "simplistic" or "Ti" related responses will be met with further resistance. Frustration can mount over time if they don't get, seek, receive, find, or create an actual "working understanding" to address where their intuitive model doesn't actually fit with how reality is working --- that works with understanding academic concepts as well as people.


..... so, what are the prescriptions from this?

- Be outstandingly honest and operate with as much integrity as possible. For T types who are blunt and 'not focused' about being well polished, this is important because, especially if you are not that well socialized, you won't understand some of the clues you're giving off at times, or, you won't understand how you're trying take shortcuts by undervaluing or ignoring certain things. So be honest; delta NFs will be able to read your intentions fairly easily, especially the closer you get to them, and the more they see you. Don't expect to hide anything. This also applies even to the more emotionally clever F types and even other NFs -over time, they will tire of distractions and extravagant reasonings, and want to be comforted by cold, hard, practical happenings. Making promises you cannot keep and flattery will not win the day.

- As in all 'real' or 'significant' relationships, over time NFs' weaknesses will become more clear. What works for each individual person is, of course, an individual matter. But in general, it seems best to play the line between supportive figure who observes their moments of idealism and naivete with someone who can be educative and not 'too' critical. Perhaps much like coaching younger people. Keep in mind they will be there and be supportive of you when you are weak and irrational, too. So find a balance between letting them be independent and knowing when to reel them in and face the facts - to either toughen up or to stop trying to act so tough and admit their shortcomings.

The matter seems to be able properly coaching or handling matters of Se, but, it can never be done in a way that values Se too much, puts too much emphasis on it. But it must be addressed. And it typically must be addressed without Fe ------ that is, without Fe+Si "oh there ther there honey bunny it's ok smoopy woopy), or Fe+Ni (or related, Ti+Se) vast emotional provocation, forceful adherence to a system and pointing out where deviations are, single-minded emphasis on power or ability, or passive (aggressive) whining or prodding all aren't very good approaches. It's not easy, regardless of your type, to do that all the time. It really isn't, especially when your own emotions are at play, and your own confidence takes a hit. But it seems the best thing to do is be impersonal and instruction or advice oriented. Maybe slightly "supportive" in a Si way (more so for EIIs, it seems), but a more raw approach (Te > Fe > > Se or Ti...) seems the surest bet.


- enjoy the company of other people, especially people the NF likes. Being anti social, aloof, uninvolved, uncaring, too profit-minded, too -results minded, too much of anything that takes away from their enjoyment of relationships generally won't work. And to be honest, especially for delta STs, their more pure enjoyment of relationships is good for you; it's likely that your lack of enjoyment of relating to others (if applicable) is a sign of your own personal issues somewhere else. NFs can bring the gift of community and relational pleasantness into your life - be a part of that, as opposed to getting in its way.

Although not too much, such that it would stress them out.... being able to bring some relational 'problems' or things to discuss with the NF would go a way towards making them feel useful. This is not the same as being relationally and emotionally inept, and being so relationally bankrupt that the NF will have to repeatedly bail you out. While this may initially be 'appealing' to the NF, "someone who needs my help!", they will only really stay in such a situation if they themselves are unhealthy and more inclined to sulking in their own personal shortcomings or weaknesses or inability to work for a better life. Ultimately, a healthy delta NF will not tolerate you being a relational or emotional fool or 'dumbass'. Take an active interest in learning how to relate better to people and you'll be respected. Demonstrate you can maintain a comfortable social circle and you can become someone they will be able to trust and potentially take refuge in.

- Be upfront about presenting your own needs and wants. NFs seem to enjoy it when their needs are remembered, but, perhaps not the first ones to be 'addressed' - because that brings them the pressure of being selfish and of having to actually declare what they want, which seems to be uncomfortable. Perhaps, what is strong Fi and weak Se ? However, this is absolutely not the case when it comes to how relationships should be working - they will tell you what their measures for acceptability are in the relationship fairly easily and fairly strongly, increasingly so the closer to them you are. (Also, don't be alarmed when they start declaring their relational wants more openly and even ferociously. It, in my experience, seems to actually be a good sign in terms of relationship development. Even if they are very diplomatic with others, the stronger words they can have with you and still be around you, the better. This seems to, also, be a 'classical hallmark' of Te/Fi relationships, but, IMO, of healthy relationships in general).

So, don't be afraid to take the lead in terms of "presenting wants and desires about what to do or how to do things", especially in regard to certain pragmatics of decision making, but, anticipate someone having strong opinions about the nature of the relationship itself. Delta NFs fairly unconsciously assume the role of moderating relational progress, and 'make decisions' about what level it is. For someone like me, that's great, because I don't have to fuss so much about it - but I can see how that would be particularly stifling to other people who perhaps don't "value Fi", or, more so, don't really want someone else to feel like they are so much in charge of it.


Final note: I pointed out a lot of weaknesses that are common in NFs, but I'd like to say that I don't see them as 'being weak' or as 'being naive'. What I said about naivete, really, seems to have to do with them not being a good judge of their own abilities in certain situations, particularly practical ones, or things relating to applications. I know of NF security personal, bouncers, fighters, athletes, and other things that are physically robust, confident, etc, whatever. Like anything else, with training and focus, things can be developed and strengthened.

[UDP]

Also, just for clarity's sake,

the above post comes from someone strong in Te, Si, Se and Ti, with weak everything else. Valued Te and Ne. Yes, an LSE.

I hope that when I write posts here in the future that are this analytical, I can try to point out the voice of where things are coming from - objectively discussing material is one thing, but, in reality, the influence of someone's perspectives is still going to come from the type, and while objectivity is 'a good thing to pursue', understanding where someone is coming may add more depth to understanding.



If I was to write that coming from the perspective of "someone in gamma quadra" or "an alpha SF", I might do things differently. And other things, too, influence what I wrote - my conception about what a good friendship is, and a good relationship is, and what social and personal experiences I've had are all a factor.

[UDP]

Anyone 'worth it' is willing to their their own faults and grow, that's true for all humans.

It's one of the real battles of developing as a person. You either run away from unpleasant truths or deal with them. It's not advisable to build anything with someone who prefers only to run away.


"Sometimes I think that pisses off Delta NFs more than anything UDP hit on."
- yes.

All delta NFs('people') are completely unique and individual and can't fit into categories. That should be appealing to a Ti polr

[moredhel]

and can cling to them stubbornly unless there is very thoroughly detailed explanations that addresses that which they are (perhaps subconsciously) avoiding. All "simplistic" or "Ti" related responses will be met with further resistance.

Isn't Ni and Ti more about detail? Te is about efficiency. I personally hate or "ignore" detail, I will gloss over lengthy documents and almost never read manuals unless I have a specific problem and then only if the index is good enough to find the information, my explanations are always more or less to the point and I struggle telling stories because I gloss over all the build up detail.

None of the functions specifically mentions detail but both Ti and Ni can be interpreted in that way to an extent, at least more than Te can.

I wonder if any Delta's enjoyed the Similarion...now that would be a good test O_o.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I wonder if any Delta's enjoyed the Similarion...now that would be a good test O_o.

"Silmarillion". And Unfinished Tales. And other books in the series.

[Minde]

I'm not sure what gave the impression Deltas don't care about romance, I agree that it is more subdued than passionate Beta romance and less cutesy than alpha romance but it still very much exists.

Agree. Deltas, just like anyone else I imagine, can have strong and deep feelings. I do, anyway.

Would you consider yourselves particularly independent deltas?

I don't see myself as an isolated individual. I have many different connections of different kinds and flavors in my life. I know that I could not live alone. And by that I mean without significant connections (though I guess I might not want to live by myself for too long either). So in that way, no, I don't consider myself independent, because I depend on having those warm close connections for my own well-being.

That said, I don't think I'm too clingy. I'm ok with space if needed, especially if the other person needs it. And I'm definitely my own person with my own thoughts and worldview(s) and experiences and life path.

- Delta NFs seem to prefer, by and large, that someone else's needs are more apparent than their own. They seem to very much not enjoy the 'spotlight'. Don't overfocus on appeasing their needs, either, for it's just as bad as not caring at all. (although that goes for most relationships...). I think delta NFs can get into trouble because they so much prefer other people's needs being met and catering to them that they don't really value or understand their own needs, save, perhaps, the most standard requirements of 'relational fidelity'.

Yeah, I can relate to that on some levels.

- Delta NFs often don't seem to understand attraction, other than thinking that looking good is a matter of fixing their hair or wearing pretty clothing. Perhaps that is more so for females, but, they seem to be particularly un-focused on more carnal or earthy elements of attraction. To me that can be a problem because they don't understand how that influences their interactions with others. And it's also related, perhaps, to 'delta modesty'.

Yeah... For me, anyway. I think there are Delta NFs who aren't as like that. But physical attraction tends to, uh, go under my radar, I guess. Unless it's made blatantly clear, in which case, unless it's put a certain way (or in the "right" context), it scares me and I pull back.

- Delta NFs need to be allowed to feel strong an independent, even when they are neither. Sometimes they are too naive about their own strengths and weaknesses to realistically assess situations. Delta NFs can tend to extremes about how they deal with this - being extremely modest and unambitious, or being 'over confident' and assuming their positive attitude, can-do spirit, and open-mindedness will win the day.

Hm. Maybe, but for me it can be more that I want my situation to be secure and, um, how to put it... like it's capable of doing things. That sounds weird.

Retry: I know I'm not particularly strong in many ways, but if I can feel a sense of strength and confidence that's good. For me, I'm ok if that sense of strength emanates from someone else at times. I think other Delta NFs might prefer that all the strength comes from themselves.

- Delta NFs may be particularly unskilled at understanding diverse conceptual matters (or especially practical matters) that requires careful examination of specific individual particles, especially if the particles are specific and individual nature or orientation or purpose. It can be too "mundane" or "tedious". They tend to prefer their own, personalized intuitive conceptions of how things work, and can cling to them stubbornly unless there is very thoroughly detailed explanations that addresses that which they are (perhaps subconsciously) avoiding. All "simplistic" or "Ti" related responses will be met with further resistance. Frustration can mount over time if they don't get, seek, receive, find, or create an actual "working understanding" to address where their intuitive model doesn't actually fit with how reality is working --- that works with understanding academic concepts as well as people.

Not sure I entirely get what you're aiming at here. Maybe an example would help?

- Be outstandingly honest and operate with as much integrity as possible.

Yes.

Making promises you cannot keep and flattery will not win the day.

Yes.

Though saying nice things, when they're authentic, usually won't hurt anything and can even help in many situations.

Delta STs, it's not a crime to be nice!

- As in all 'real' or 'significant' relationships, over time NFs' weaknesses will become more clear. What works for each individual person is, of course, an individual matter. But in general, it seems best to play the line between supportive figure who observes their moments of idealism and naivete with someone who can be educative and not 'too' critical. Perhaps much like coaching younger people. Keep in mind they will be there and be supportive of you when you are weak and irrational, too. So find a balance between letting them be independent and knowing when to reel them in and face the facts - to either toughen up or to stop trying to act so tough and admit their shortcomings.

Eh...

The matter seems to be able properly coaching or handling matters of Se, but, it can never be done in a way that values Se too much, puts too much emphasis on it. But it must be addressed. And it typically must be addressed without Fe ------ that is, without Fe+Si "oh there ther there honey bunny it's ok smoopy woopy), or Fe+Ni (or related, Ti+Se) vast emotional provocation, forceful adherence to a system and pointing out where deviations are, single-minded emphasis on power or ability, or passive (aggressive) whining or prodding all aren't very good approaches. It's not easy, regardless of your type, to do that all the time. It really isn't, especially when your own emotions are at play, and your own confidence takes a hit. But it seems the best thing to do is be impersonal and instruction or advice oriented. Maybe slightly "supportive" in a Si way (more so for EIIs, it seems), but a more raw approach (Te > Fe > > Se or Ti...) seems the surest bet.

Eh, I really don't like it when people question my reasoning. It really takes exactly the right approach for me to not get offended. And a "parental" approach is definitely not the right one... I really don't like it when you think you know more about me than I do.

- Be upfront about presenting your own needs and wants. NFs seem to enjoy it when their needs are remembered, but, perhaps not the first ones to be 'addressed' - because that brings them the pressure of being selfish and of having to actually declare what they want, which seems to be uncomfortable.

Yeah, that's kind of weird, but it is fairly accurate of me at least.




I fee like adding things of my own here, but I'm not sure what to say. I don't want to confuse my own wants/needs with type-related ones, thus potentially upsetting other Delta NFs.

I do know this, though: Gentleness. Especially when pushing boundaries. The people who make me happiest don't push me too hard, and when they do it's more of a pulling, like a "Come follow me out here. See, it won't hurt." And when I say "no" they listen, not only to what but why I'm saying it.

And try to understand me. Even if you don't end up doing so completely, the trying warms my heart. Though it can be uncomfortable sometimes, I like it when people ask me what I'm thinking/feeling, then wait patiently for me to formulate it into words. (Because sometimes it can take awhile for what's inside to reach the outside.)

Assertiveness > aggressiveness. I like assertive people; aggressiveness often ends up scaring me. I'll actually often end up going along with the aggressive people's wants, but it's not good long-run.

[Beautiful sky]

and can cling to them stubbornly unless there is very thoroughly detailed explanations that addresses that which they are (perhaps subconsciously) avoiding. All "simplistic" or "Ti" related responses will be met with further resistance.

Isn't Ni and Ti more about detail? Te is about efficiency. I personally hate or "ignore" detail, I will gloss over lengthy documents and almost never read manuals unless I have a specific problem and then only if the index is good enough to find the information, my explanations are always more or less to the point and I struggle telling stories because I gloss over all the build up detail.

None of the functions specifically mentions detail but both Ti and Ni can be interpreted in that way to an extent, at least more than Te can.

I wonder if any Delta's enjoyed the Similarion...now that would be a good test O_o.

Please break out of your pattern and quote the person's name that you are referencing your quote to so I don't go searching to see who you're responding to. Thank you.

Isn't Ni and Ti more about detail? Te is about efficiency. I personally hate or "ignore" detail, I will gloss over lengthy documents and almost never read manuals unless I have a specific problem and then only if the index is good enough to find the information, my explanations are always more or less to the point and I struggle telling stories because I gloss over all the build up detail.

If anything, Te + Si are sticklers for details. What you have described about yourself point away from Delta ST. I do that glossing over documents, ignoring details, and struggle in telling stories thing due to glossing over details too and I'm IEI.

LOL
LSE are stickler for reading manuals before they proceed; they plan every possible failure of something before they proceed.
"This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything."
http://socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/dual-4j.html

Maybe he should try his shoes at another type.

You know, by Te, it's not meant "lazy." LOL

[RoadPaveMent]

They don't care too much about romanticism.

Fi = relationships are everything = not romanticism?!?

(Oversimplified. Don't get all critical on my ass and say I'm wrong about Fi. )

[Beautiful sky]

FiNe = empathetic, creating a positive psychological climate around him/her; reducing and cutting quarrels, very stable in personal affections, creates deep and lasting human relationships, creates long intimate conversations, stories about the past, values sentimentality in others.

[moredhel]

Isn't Ni and Ti more about detail? Te is about efficiency. I personally hate or "ignore" detail, I will gloss over lengthy documents and almost never read manuals unless I have a specific problem and then only if the index is good enough to find the information, my explanations are always more or less to the point and I struggle telling stories because I gloss over all the build up detail.

If anything, Te + Si are sticklers for details. What you have described about yourself point away from Delta ST. I do that glossing over documents, ignoring details, and struggle in telling stories thing due to glossing over details too and I'm IEI.

Certain details yes, detail is quite a broad reaching word. I'm more referring to unnecessary detail, for instance why would you read cover to cover of a new phone manual when it's going to work roughly the same as your old phone and you currently don't have an issue that needs solving?

[moredhel]

Please break out of your pattern and quote the person's name that you are referencing your quote to so I don't go searching to see who you're responding to. Thank you.

No, when it's more convenient I'll do it that way.

LOL
LSE are stickler for reading manuals before they proceed; they plan every possible failure of something before they proceed.
"This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything."
http://socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/dual-4j.html

Maybe he should try his shoes at another type.

You know, by Te, it's not meant "lazy." LOL

The "detail" that the dual pair description is referring to seems to be more about detail in the Si sense of quality, attention to detail in work that you do to produce a quality product and attention to detail in action.

This has nothing to with reading and learning through unnecessary detail or explaining things in unnecessary detail, which is what I'm talking about. The keyword being unnecessary. Te is about efficiency first and foremost.

[Beautiful sky]

Please break out of your pattern and quote the person's name that you are referencing your quote to so I don't go searching to see who you're responding to. Thank you.

No, when it's more convenient I'll do it that way.

LOL
LSE are stickler for reading manuals before they proceed; they plan every possible failure of something before they proceed.
"This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything."
http://socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/dual-4j.html

Maybe he should try his shoes at another type.

You know, by Te, it's not meant "lazy." LOL

The "detail" that the dual pair description is referring to seems to be more about detail in the Si sense of quality, attention to detail in work that you do to produce a quality product and attention to detail in action.

This has nothing to with reading and learning through unnecessary detail or explaining things in unnecessary detail, which is what I'm talking about. The keyword being unnecessary. Te is about efficiency first and foremost.

If you don't get the correct facts, that also involve detail, than how can you be sure that you are accurate?

Certain details yes, detail is quite a broad reaching word. I'm more referring to unnecessary detail, for instance why would you read cover to cover of a new phone manual when it's going to work roughly the same as your old phone and you currently don't have an issue that needs solving?

No one of any type would ever do that. That is not Te efficiency. In fact, I would consider myself to be rather efficient when its important to be, although at other times I couldn't be bothered about most things. Ni is the function known for seeing the big picture and leaving out unnecessary details, not Si. I think you are basing your understanding of Te too much on these silly notions of "efficiency" and "effectiveness". You're being too influenced by Maritsa. LSEs are just about the most inefficient type in the entire socion, in my view. They exert way too much energy in accomplishing goals and have their noses stuck in unnecessary details that they lose sight of the bigger picture.

I just told him that LSE get their head stuck in detail, hence he isn't being influenced by me but rather is inaccurate understanding of the LSE type. Do me a favor, read what I write before filling in the details (arg, my frustration in dealing with intuitive dynamic types is that I have to remind myself that you do fill in information where you didn't see it), in your big picture, and assuming that I've told him something that I have not.

[Beautiful sky]

I just told him that LSE get their head stuck in detail, hence he isn't being influenced by me but rather is inaccurate understanding of the LSE type. Do me a favor, read what I write before filling in the details (arg, my frustration in dealing with intuitive dynamic types is that I have to remind myself that you do fill in information where you didn't see it), in your big picture, and assuming that I've told him something that I have not.

Uhh.. Sorry, I don't exactly read most of your posts (not in depth anyway) but you're too adorable to put on ignore. I was directing my response to moredhel alone, but okay I'll make an exception and read what you write in this thread.

I just told him that LSE get their head stuck in detail, hence he isn't being influenced by me but rather is inaccurate understanding of the LSE type.

I agree with you on this one. He does seem to have a gross misunderstanding of LSEs. I don't think he's SLI like you think he is either.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say he's IEI like myself instead of this silly LSE typing, although this is but a hunch. I have a feeling that his misconception of the functions would become apparent and corrected after he's done a proper type thread of himself.

Great suggestion.

[moredhel]

I just told him that LSE get their head stuck in detail, hence he isn't being influenced by me but rather is inaccurate understanding of the LSE type. Do me a favor, read what I write before filling in the details (arg, my frustration in dealing with intuitive dynamic types is that I have to remind myself that you do fill in information where you didn't see it), in your big picture, and assuming that I've told him something that I have not.

Uhh.. Sorry, I don't exactly read most of your posts (not in depth anyway) but you're too adorable to put on ignore. I was directing my response to moredhel alone, but okay I'll make an exception and read what you write in this thread.

I just told him that LSE get their head stuck in detail, hence he isn't being influenced by me but rather is inaccurate understanding of the LSE type.

I agree with you on this one. He does seem to have a gross misunderstanding of LSEs. I don't think he's SLI like you think he is either.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say he's IEI like myself instead of this silly LSE typing, although this is but a hunch. I have a feeling that his misconception of the functions would become apparent and corrected after he's done a proper type thread of himself.

lol me as a beta is a novel suggestion, though I'm flattered you would type me as your identical . You seem to have a slightly skewed view of LSE being your conflictor and all and I think Maritsa almost purely uses JCF definitions so I've stopped listening to her awhile ago.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LSE <-- this is me to a key, every function is in the right spot.
When I talk about detail in the context of this thread I'm talking in communication (I tend to get to the point and not get bogged down in "detail" particularly when explaining something) no socionics descriptions of Te contradict this and I interpret them to support this in fact.

The more I read the functions the more I realize detail (in several different contexts) is not conducive to one function. But I'm sure enough that Te =/= explaining something in detail.

[RoadPaveMent]

You're being too influenced by Maritsa.

Arrg! Take cover!

LSEs are just about the most inefficient type in the entire socion, in my view. They exert way too much energy in accomplishing goals and have their noses stuck in unnecessary details that they lose sight of the bigger picture.

You're such an IEI.

[Absurd]

I have met nice LSEs I get along okay with.

What did you with those nice LSEs ? For you know, I'm a very nice LSE.