Integral Types

[Creepy-]

Has anyone witnessed the phenomenon of integral type?

There is an article here.

In hindsight, I believe my high school group was very ESTp (or at least ) overall, despite the eventual loss of our ESTp member. This might have contributed to the INTj member eventually leaving us.

The group was me + 9 guys, though we rarely functioned as a whole group except for the larger, more devastating shenanigans and pyrotechnics. Even when we were not functioning together, we tended to form smaller groups that shared the same space.

The guys' types (in no particular order except for quadra): INTj, ENTp, ESTp, ISTj, ESFp, INTp, ENTj, and 2 uncertain (both are probably SF, maybe ISFj and ISFp, going by their relationships with the INTj).

We lost the ESTp fairly early on because he dropped out of school, and then the INTj because he decided he hated all of us (except for me and the INTp guy).

There was a website which is a perfect example of what we got up to, but it unfortunately no longer exists . It was rather random and physical - when we weren't talking about science, anyway (we were nerds, doing the Specialist Science program). The guys in particular would try to inflict as much pain as possible on each other in ritualized games. There was also the "Alpha Male" competition. Ah, the memories...

[Kristiina]

Well, Estonian integral type would probably be ISTj. Someone else said it in another forum, but I agree. The people are very calm, quiet and emotionless. Also very reserved and gray in their choice of clothing. There are also some ISTp-ish "every man for himself" tendencies.

My family is rather big and there is a certain aura among us. And it's pretty strong, because other people find the conversations hard to observe. Hectic, but somehow reasonable (if you look for reason), energetic, but somehow lazy. I think it's ESTp. I also read the ESTp description and it applies pretty well. And I think one of my brothers is ESTp! I had problems typing him.

[Gilly]

I think that, if the US were to be assigned an integral type, it would be ENTj. Hard working, innovative, entrepreneurial, and open-minded while at the same time unwilling to compromise it's own values: these are the traits of the ideal "American," and they happen to fit quite well with the stereotypical picture of the LIE.

[Gilly]

I think my personal friend group tends toward an ENFp personality: innovation, creativity, and open-mindedness are valued above all, with a strong undercurrent of the need for the kind of sensitivity and tactful behavior that is characteristic of the ENFp.

My family...is tough to group. I think we're rather ENFj: we're very open and expressive, and value the kind of straightforward honesty that Beta quadra stands for (in spite of the fact that everyone except me is a Delta...hmmm...)

[Creepy-]

I think my personal friend group tends toward an ENFp personality: innovation, creativity, and open-mindedness are valued above all, with a strong undercurrent of the need for the kind of sensitivity and tactful behavior that is characteristic of the ENFp.

My family...is tough to group. I think we're rather ENFj: we're very open and expressive, and value the kind of straightforward honesty that Beta quadra stands for (in spite of the fact that everyone except me is a Delta...hmmm...)

Interesting!

[Dmitri Lytov]

Well, Estonian integral type would probably be ISTj. Someone else said it in another forum, but I agree.

It was me who wrote it here:
http://forum.socioniko.net/viewtopic.php?t=28

The topic was in German, here I translate it into English:

ENFj: Arabs (general; certain countries may deviate), Poles
ENFp: Spanish, Israeli Jews, Romanian
ENTj: USA
ENTp: Jews (Europe and USA)
ESFj: France, Armenia, Argentina
ESFp: Georgia (in Caucasus, not in the USA), Thailand
ESTj: Great Britain, Lithuania, Japan (?)
ESTp: Turks, Chechens, Serbians
INFj: Belarus, Canada
INFp: Russia, Ireland, Iran
INTj: Sweden, Czech
INTp: ???
ISFj: Ukraine, Switzerland, Korea, maybe also Denmark
ISFp: Italy, Azeri, Flemish
ISTj: Germany, Estonia
ISTp: Finland, Aussies, Dutch

[tcaudilllg]

How does the concept of "integral" type differ from that of a "dominant" type?

For example, would one call the "integral" type of America ENTJ, and the "dominant" type the type of the president? (ESTP for now) Does a nation fare better if the dominant type and the integral type are the same, or highly similar?

[Gilly]

ENTp: Jews (Europe and USA)

LOL

[Dmitri Lytov]

Well, the concept of an "integral type" is something very, very vague.
On the one hand, it is obvious that nations do have certain types of behavior that persist thrugh centuries, that make this nation different even from its closest kins and/or bearers of the same language (for example Americans from Britons, Canadians and Aussies; Germans from Austrians; Serbs from Bosnians, Montenegrians and Croatians; etc.). Historical researches, literature studies etc. show that certain behavioral traditions exist through centuries and disappear only when the corresponding nation disappears.

It is also obvious that there is certain succession between nations. The nation-father and the nation-child may coexist for certain time, but their behavioral types are very often different, and for this reason one of them sooner or later supersedes the other. Ancient Romans were something much different from the modern Italians. Ancient Greeks were not the same nation as Byzantines, and the last not the same as modern Greeks. In the Middle Ages there was a huge difference between the Moscow Russians and inhabitants of other regions of the Ancient Rus, which resulted in bloody wars and numerous atrocities. Biblical Jews were a very cruel and pathetic nation, much different from the modern Jews. Et cetera, et cetera.

There are lots of funny books dedicated to national characters - look e.g. here:
http://www.ovalbooks.com/xeno/Russians.html

And there are more detailed researches of linguists and historians (these are usually very boring books ).

In my opinion, the "national type" is a stereotype of behavior developed through years, because people of a certain psychological type suit better for long-term existence in such conditions than other types. At a certain moment of the nation's history this type, however, begins to enchain its further development, the nation begins to look desperately for "something else but not this one, it results in big massacres (The Thirty Years War in Germany, The French Revolution, The Russian Revolution etc.)... but inertia is a great thing, and very long, long after the massacres had ended, this type still persists, until the nation extincts. Sometimes it may be even a phantom type: as a result of a big war or some other perturbartions, this type is no more widely represented among people of this nation; however, due to social inertia, due to stereotypes learnt from the childhood, people continue living according to the dead type, until their nation turns into something else.

This is the hypothesis about national types according to socionists from Kiev.

[Dmitri Lytov]

Here is a link to Lev Gumilev's book (in English) which serves as a basis for the socionic hypothesis of national types:

http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/English/ebe.htm

Lev Gumilev (or Gumilyov, Gumiliov) was a historian who studies similar tendencies in the history of different nations and discovered certain regularities, rhythms of development, which allows developing scientific criteria of distinguishing one nation from the other, even when they speak the same language (like Austrians and Germans, Serbs and Croatians).

[Creepy-bg]

isn't there a theory that integrals are composed of both a male and female component? Male as ego-block- female as it's dual. perhaps in female dominated societies this would be reversed.

In the case of the United States ENTj is the integral male type while ISFj is the female...

[Dmitri Lytov]

It's one of hypotheses. And I'd say, yes, the stereotype of female behavior cultuvated in the US really reminds me ISFj, and there are lots of famous ISFj actresses in the US, such as Michelle Pfeiffer, Susan Sarandon, etc. However, what will native Americans tell about this hypothesis?

[Expat]

ESTj: Great Britain, Lithuania, Japan (?)

I suggest INTp for England.

ISFp: Italy, Azeri, Flemish

I'd say the whole of Belgium is ISFp, not just the Flemish part -- the Wallonia (the French-speaking part) is also ISFp; it's not quite the same as France.

[Creepy-]

ISTp: Finland, Aussies, Dutch

Which Aussies?

[FDG]

I don't think ISFp fits Italy. Italy is extraverted, but rather conservative in its essential moral judgements. We always try to find tricky ways to conduct businesses, but we are pretty concerned about values in the sphere of relationships. There is also a tendency to value irrational means to gain easy money, i.e. lottery, etc.

All in all, I'd say ESFp, which is quite clear from the political sphere.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Dmitri Lytov]

Was it a joke?

[Dmitri Lytov]

I don't think ISFp fits Italy. Italy is extraverted, but rather conservative in its essential moral judgements. We always try to find tricky ways to conduct businesses, but we are pretty concerned about values in the sphere of relationships. There is also a tendency to value irrational means to gain easy money, i.e. lottery, etc.

Yes, maybe ESFp is a good version.

Which Aussies?

As far as I know, Australians call themselves "Aussies", don't they?

[snegledmaca]

What type would croatia be? I'm curious. I've got a hypothesis of my own, but I'm no expert.

[Creepy-]

Which Aussies?

As far as I know, Australians call themselves "Aussies", don't they?

Yes, but Australian culture is somewhat segregated. Indigenous Australians are quite different to European Australians, and as groups they act very differently.

[Dmitri Lytov]

No idea about Croatians, but they are definitely different from Serbs. I lurked or sometimes even participated both in Serbian and Croatian forums. My impression (maybe superficial) was that Serbians usually react very emotionally and sharply even to smallest irritating factors, while Croatians react calmly and ironically even to obvious insults.

[Phaedrus]

So far I have seen suggestions that Sweden is INTj or ESTp. I don't know what they are based on, but the typical Swedish mentality is clearly Sj in general, and if you combine that with our overall introvertedness you would probably end up with ISTj or ISFj. But maybe those typings refer to some other aspect of the differences between nations. I haven't studied it in detail.

[Dmitri Lytov]

Why is Sweden Sj? According to journalists (maybe Swedes look at it differently), Swedes are known for their indecisiveness, they prefer to intellectually elaborate a problem for hours even when it requires a one minute action, isn't it the vulnerable ? Swedes do not like aggression and avoid it at all costs (and for this reason may look boring and gloomy to their neighbors). In fact, Swedes by their behavior are much similar to Canadians with just one exception: Sweden is a T nation, and Canada is definitely an F nation.

Finns admire Swedes for their intellectualism (in fact Swedish universities, especially in Turku, are still the most prestigious in Finland), but on the other hand, Finns consider Swedes arrogant and over-critical (again, this is not my own impression, this is what I heard from Finns).

PS. I apologize if I expressed myself not very politely. I am not Swede, and I am curious what native Swedes think of themselves.

[Creepy-bg]

It's one of hypotheses. And I'd say, yes, the stereotype of female behavior cultuvated in the US really reminds me ISFj, and there are lots of famous ISFj actresses in the US, such as Michelle Pfeiffer, Susan Sarandon, etc. However, what will native Americans tell about this hypothesis?

I just happen to work on a reservation and interract with native Americans on a daily basis. Hopefully I can corner one of my employees into letting me talk their ear off explaining socionics some time so I can get they're opinion. Off the top of my head I would say that most native American females to me seem to be E's while males are generally I's. I know that's not much but I'd rather have their opinion on this than trying to guess at it myself.

Do any others think this applys to their countries? Considering the Russion integral to be INFp does the Russian female stereotype of ESTp sound correct?

[Dmitri Lytov]

I see, we probably mean different things under the same terms. When I spoke about "native Americans", I meant the overall population of the USA and not Indians.

As for Russians... both male and female stereotypes of INFp and ESTp are cultivated in Russian mass culture. While ESTp are represented as "super-people", INFp are rather represented as something very ordinary, usual, so that one can see such people everywhere.

[pesto]

Why is Sweden Sj? According to journalists (maybe Swedes look at it differently), Swedes are known for their indecisiveness, they prefer to intellectually elaborate a problem for hours even when it requires a one minute action, isn't it the vulnerable ? Swedes do not like aggression and avoid it at all costs (and for this reason may look boring and gloomy to their neighbors). In fact, Swedes by their behavior are much similar to Canadians with just one exception: Sweden is a T nation, and Canada is definitely an F nation.

Finns admire Swedes for their intellectualism (in fact Swedish universities, especially in Turku, are still the most prestigious in Finland), but on the other hand, Finns consider Swedes arrogant and over-critical (again, this is not my own impression, this is what I heard from Finns).

PS. I apologize if I expressed myself not very politely. I am not Swede, and I am curious what native Swedes think of themselves.

That seems accurate to me as a Swede. I've seen Sweden typed as INTj before which makes a lot more sense.

[Creepy-bg]

I see, we probably mean different things under the same terms. When I spoke about "native Americans", I meant the overall population of the USA and not Indians.

It's that damn politicaly correct speech they teach us here in America. Actually I (and they as well) call themselves Indians... Native American = Indian seems to be a white man's invention... repressed guilt and all :wink:

As a "native American" as you meant it I can say yes, ENTj males and ISFj females sounds roughly correct. At least from the viewpoint of what's expected from each gender. The lines between seem to be blurring though.

[Phaedrus]

PS. I apologize if I expressed myself not very politely. I am not Swede, and I am curious what native Swedes think of themselves.

You don't have to apologize one bit. I'm not a typical Swede myself and I'm very non-nationalistic.

Why is Sweden Sj? According to journalists (maybe Swedes look at it differently), Swedes are known for their indecisiveness, they prefer to intellectually elaborate a problem for hours even when it requires a one minute action, isn't it the vulnerable ? Swedes do not like aggression and avoid it at all costs (and for this reason may look boring and gloomy to their neighbors). In fact, Swedes by their behavior are much similar to Canadians with just one exception: Sweden is a T nation, and Canada is definitely an F nation.

Yes, you are right about the indecisiveness of Swedes (and in that respect I'm also "Swedish"). Sweden is also too passive in my opinion when it should show more aggression and resoluteness. And yes, Swedes are boring and gloomy too.

But is that really signs of INTj? Sweden is a very bureaucratic country. Rules should be obeyed at all cost. My impression of INTjs is that they are much more anti-authoritarian than a typical Swede.

Swedes are also very cautious, they don't want to take risks. The general attitude of the government and the authorities is paternalistic. "We will take care of you, if you just let us be in possession of the power." "We will protect you from any danger."

If we look at MBTI test results, there is a large proportion of ISFJs among Swedes, maybe up to 20 %. You know that I don't trust test results that much, but it is an indication. I don't know about Canada, but if you compare Sweden to Denmark, Sweden is much more ISFj than Denmark, which is much more p than Sweden. Denmark is a more laid-back country than Sweden (something that is even clearly expressed in the way they talk ...), that is all I can say for sure.

[Dmitri Lytov]

MBTI gives somewhat different results than socionics. However, it would be interesting for me to look at these statistics. Was it published in the Internet?

[Phaedrus]

MBTI gives somewhat different results than socionics. However, it would be interesting for me to look at these statistics. Was it published in the Internet?

No, I don't think so, but I'm not sure. I think I've read it in some Swedish material used by MBTI practitioners, and I don't know if I still have access to it.

[pesto]

Sweden is a very bureaucratic country. Rules should be obeyed at all cost. My impression of INTjs is that they are much more anti-authoritarian than a typical Swede.

I'll leave the typing to someone else.

Yes, Sweden is bureaucratic, but I don't think it's authorian at all. Just compare the Swedish school system to just about any other. Decision making takes a long time because every aspect has to be taken into account and every special interest organisation possible must have a say. There are tons of regulations to make sure the decisions are fair but quite often the rules become more important and the fairness is kind of lost in the process. But the rules are followed becuase they are believed to make the society fair.

[Phaedrus]

Yes, Sweden is bureaucratic, but I don't think it's authorian at all. Just compare the Swedish school system to just about any other. Decision making takes a long time because every aspect has to be taken into account and every special interest organisation possible must have a say. There are tons of regulations to make sure the decisions are fair but quite often the rules become more important and the fairness is kind of lost in the process. But the rules are followed becuase they are believed to make the society fair.

Yes, I agree with that description. I think it comes to what we mean by "authoritarian". At least Swedes are afraid to question decisions made my authorities. They don't want to make a fuss, like the Frenchmen for example.

[schrödinger's cat]

The theory is interesting. Isn't it a bit simplistic to just say "this country = that type". Is the whole of Italy really one type? I've heard that there are huge differences in mentality between North and South. Could there be one "Italian" integral type, and then another Tuscan/Sicilian/South Tirolean (etc.) subtype?

Then there are historical changes. My own part of Germany used to belong to Austria. Then it was an independent country. Then it was gobbled up by the German Empire and became a county. Then this county was gobbled up by its neighbouring county (there are huge differences!). So, what's our type?

Then there are regional differences. Even within my county, btw., there are differences between the mountains and the valleys. Mountain people are stubborn, taciturn, enduring, ethical, and dreamy, while valley people are realistic urbane bonvivants who are easygoing and gossippy. So, those would be yet two more subtypes.

That way you'd get sub-sub-sub-sub-subtypes. We could call it the Matrioshka Theory.

[Kim]

The theory is interesting. Isn't it a bit simplistic to just say "this country = that type". Is the whole of Italy really one type? I've heard that there are huge differences in mentality between North and South. Could there be one "Italian" integral type, and then another Tuscan/Sicilian/South Tirolean (etc.) subtype?

Then there are historical changes. My own part of Germany used to belong to Austria. Then it was an independent country. Then it was gobbled up by the German Empire and became a county. Then this county was gobbled up by its neighbouring county (there are huge differences!). So, what's our type?

Then there are regional differences. Even within my county, btw., there are differences between the mountains and the valleys. Mountain people are stubborn, taciturn, enduring, ethical, and dreamy, while valley people are realistic urbane bonvivants who are easygoing and gossippy. So, those would be yet two more subtypes.

That way you'd get sub-sub-sub-sub-subtypes. We could call it the Matrioshka Theory.

Ahh, thanks for saving the me the effort Cat! Just look at Berlin vs Hamburg vs Cologne - huge differences (Hamburg is I, Cologne is definitely E, etc, etc). I think typing countries is tedious because it mostly uses and perpetuates stereotypes. Germany is certainly not ISTj (were I to type it *cringes*). There are not only big differences between regions and urban/rural settings, but also between generations.

[schrödinger's cat]

Kim, what type is your bit of Germany? Mine is ISTp or INTp, but that's if I judge the four "letters" separately. I'd have to post a detailled descriptions to be really sure.

That would be a nice thread for "What's my Type", btw. "VI my country".

[Dmitri Lytov]

As a translator, I often notice words not translatable to certain languages due to different national mentalities.

For example, we Russians do not have in our language a word "commitment". We have such words as "obligation" or "duty" or "aspiration" or "plan" but do not have a word that unites all these 4 terms in one.

Many years of serfdom taught Russian peasants that it is stupid to commit for something, it will be the benefit of your landlord but not your own benefit. Although the serfdom was abolished long ago, it is a pity for me to say that we still have remnants of that time's thinking.

[Dioklecian]

What really makes a country a country? Is Europe a country?

[Creepy-pokeball]

Not yet

[Dmitri Lytov]

Nationalism is still a very strong factor in many European countries and even smaller regions, such as Catalonia or Corsica. In certain cases nationalism has very ugly forms. A month ago EuroNews TV showed a story of people of a small Slovene village in Austria that have been fighting for many years for the right to add fifty or sixty inscriptions in Slovene language to the existing inscriptions in their village, while Austrian authorities perceived it very sharply and resisted. However, knowing relatively small territories of many European countries, such nationalism makes sense. Austrians still remember the territory they conceded to Slovenes after the WWII, and are afraid of losing more, and this is why they were so cautios about what they considered "Slovene nationalism".

However, what makes sense in Europe, is ridiculous or even dangerous in other countries. In Russia nationalist forces always represented a very small minority in our society, simply because nationalism (and especially Russian nationalism) was a direct threat to our multi-national society. One of reasons of the Chechen war was the Chechen nationalism. In the eyes of other nations of Russia, even Muslim nations, Chechens committed something abominable - they required "national purification" of their territory (and they attempted to enforce this "purification" in 1990s, which resulted in massacres against non-Chechen population).

[Rocky]

And I'd say, yes, the stereotype of female behavior cultuvated in the US really reminds me ISFj, and there are lots of famous ISFj actresses in the US, such as Michelle Pfeiffer, Susan Sarandon, etc. However, what will native Americans tell about this hypothesis?

*shrug*

I find it more than highley unlikely that there are "lots" of ISFJ actresses in America. I'd be surprised if there were any. If there are any at all, it would be one in a million. And maybe that would still be giving them too much credit. ISFJs have neither the desired nor talent to be actresses. I would be shocked if you could find one aota of anything even resembling a proof for any of the actresses you have in mind to be ISFJ.

And along those lines, ISFJ is not the female stereotype in America, anyway. Its ESFP.