Guess the ENFP and ESFJ description

[Jarno]

so ENTp=ENTP and ESFj=ESFJ according to you?

I cant imagine ENTP and ESFJ (MBTI) in the same room, getting along.

Yep. As you can read for yourself, the descriptions are describing the same kind of people. I don't know where the myth comes from that the descriptions would describe totally different people...

For your second question:
There is a difference between what you expect and how reality works :-)

They get along perfectly. They have an activation relationship. Quick to establish, and very friendly, good understanding, energizing and mutual attraction. This happens to all people who meet their 'activation' type.

[Chloe]

They get along perfectly. They have an activation relationship. Quick to establish, and very friendly, good understanding, energizing and mutual attraction. This happens to all people who meet their 'activation' type.

heh, it's really the same thing, there's noooo way I am ESFj in Socionics.

I am saying I cant imagine because i was reading many people on INTPcentral who cant stand ISFJs and ESFPs... and ENTPs who cant standa ESFJs ... and had very bad experience with them.

[Jarno]

heh, it's really the same thing, there's noooo way I am ESFj in Socionics.

I am saying I cant imagine because i was reading many people on INTPcentral who cant stand ISFJs and ESFPs... and ENTPs who cant standa ESFJs ... and had very bad experience with them.

That's odd. Well, experience it for yourself.

I once opened a topic to rate all relationships, and duality was always 1 and activation in the top 4.

[Gilly]

That's odd. Well, experience it for yourself.

I once opened a topic to rate all relationships, and duality was always 1 and activation in the top 4.

It's not odd, they are two entirely different systems. One letter off, which is not only common but, in the case of some types, typically EXPECTED, especially based on functional analysis, and you go from dual to conflictor. Does that not make sense to you?

[Jarno]

Gilly, instead of saying that there must be something wrong with mbti or etc, maybe there's something wrong with your interpretation. You've got 18000 posts and still open topics about your type. You are one of the few argueing the difficulty of distinguishing ENFP and ESFJ, and also claim to have deviate on at least 3 dichotomies in both systems. I rather assume it's you and not everything else that is wrong. But since I suspect we won't be able to resolve these issues I will rest my case here. I cannot give more factual evidence then what I did in this thread. Though I think I clarified a lot for the rest of the people who've read this thread. So that's enough for me.

[Gilly]

I don't actually question my type; I just have mood swings and am insecure.

I'm not saying that they are hard to distinguish. Read my fucking posts, please, and learn the basics of the theory. They use different methods of typing, gauge different things, define their terms differently. The only commonalities are superficial traits and the letters, which aren't even used in proper socionics. I'm not saying that "there's something wrong with MBTI." I'm saying the theories are different, and so are the people. Face the facts, you are wrong.

[Jarno]

Face the facts, you are wrong.

sure no problem.

[Azeroffs]

They use different methods of typing

irrelevant

gauge different things

evidence?

define their terms differently

more evidence?

[Azeroffs]

I find it funny that the only refutation against socionics and MBTI types being the same is "I'm different types in the different systems."

The problem with that is that there are many ways in which you could be mistaken. There's no possible way to know for a fact that you are different types in the different systems, so that point is meaningless.

What we do know for a fact are the definitions of dichotomies and descriptions of the collective of those dichotomies. And, when you accept that MBTI's functions are flawed, everything falls into place. The only way I could be convinced that they aren't the same at a core level is if you wanted to argue that MBTI's functions are not flawed. In which case, I have nothing to say and you may in fact be correct that the systems are different. However, I don't know anyone who has strong understanding of both systems that would argue for MBTI's functions as existing in conjunction with socionics functions.

[Gilly]

Wow, did either of you even read my posts before pretending to refute them?

If you think the types are the same, you need to spend more time with both theories. I've been studying MBTI for 7 years and Socionics for 5, and quite frankly the disparities are glaringly obvious to me.

[Gilly]

Let's see if I can put this simply:

MBTI is a theory of Personality
Socionics is a theory of Information Metabolism

MBTI assesses personality traits
Socionics assesses cognitive processes

MBTI typing is based on superficial traits and character idiosyncrasies
Socionics typing is based on assessing underlying mental function and thinking patterns

Sure, they are talking generally about the same kinds of things, and there are correlations, but the specifics of the theoretical constructs differ significantly, and, thus, so do the types as entities, as well as some people's types in the respective theories.

The short and long of it is, if you think they are the same, either your understanding of one or both is flawed, or your understanding of what comprises the essence of each theory is superficial.

[Azeroffs]

Wow, did either of you even read my posts before pretending to refute them?

If you think the types are the same, you need to spend more time with both theories. I've been studying MBTI for 7 years and Socionics for 5, and quite frankly the disparities are glaringly obvious to me.

How about instead of telling people they're wrong, show them. And by 'them,' I at least mean me.

You and half this forum always do that, and it never works. I don't know why you can't see that. No one is going to respond to "you are wrong" with "Omg, you're right, I am wrong... Idk why I didn't realize I'm a dumbass sooner."

Learn how to argue constructively please. And if you already do, which I know you do.. try showing it.

[tire iron]

I cant imagine ENTP and ESFJ (MBTI) in the same room, getting along.

They get along in Socionics. Look at Pied Piper and Airborne.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Crispy]

and some LIIs with INTJ (eg businessmen).

Why would a businessman LII be more likely to think they are INTJ than any other LII?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Crispy]

Are those not traits of the typical Socionic LII? We are known for our regimented lifestyles.