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IMO interpretation of body language and such isOriginally Posted by Airborne
>
, and reliance on non-verbal communication over verbal one is
(though whether it depends on strong or valued element is questionable; it's clear between Fe/Te ego types, though).
Some people say it's related tobecause of physical awareness of external objects, but the whole point of body language is not in observing it, but in interpreting it accurately. Others say
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Ah I wish I was still youthful and adventurous. Now my adventures are limited to getting drunk with friends at one of their houses and coming back home when the day dawns. I wish I had those thrilling 'ecstasy' and rave partying days again, they were quite fun, but somehow even alcohol is starting to make me feel bad the next day and guilty because I drank too much, I think I´m getting as neurotic as a 70 year old can be. And hypocondriac, on top of that. The only thing I´m still thrilled with is driving cars fast. And women, although I do think sex is overrated, but it´s always nice to flert. I like women a lot, I think this is some disorder. My psych doc says I´m obsessive abt women. But this is a mental condition rather than type related, I guess.
I interpreted body language all the time with the ILI I liked, and I was getting bad vibes from her half the time, until I talked to a couple ILIs here that said that you're reading way too much into it. I also am very sensitive to the looks on people's faces when I am talking. If they look bored/annoyed/bothered, I stop talking. That is indeedIMO interpretation of body language and such is/
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
The example you give is exactly what I said about interpretation not being defined by any explicit rules, which many "guides to body language" attempt.
I am, btw, never careful about the signs of people and I don't even think that they mean only one thing, I think people can be deceitful with body language. For example they say that if you lick your lips you think about sex. Bullshit, I caught myself doing that and I was thinking about totally different things. Maybe that's true for Victim/Aggressors, even if it's not a fundamental human trait, but if it's considered true and accepted by anyone it is actually true.
This reminds me of that crap stating "if a woman says 'no' it means 'maybe'". Yeah, sure.
This is precisely why I think this information is of internal nature, and partially what makes Feeling/Ethics egos be this much concerned with people - because it is accessible to them.
Fe-PoLRs IMO fail at both reading and using body language more than any other type. As I said earlier, I'm not sure if what matters more is strong or valued, but I'm inclined towards the former - in which case you'd simply had relatively weak
Are we really that different? I don't know.
I've been on some adventures myself . . .
I'm not stating that he is "LSE", end point. But he does seem rational, and I can easily see him as XXTj
I think LSE but you've got some baggage to your personality that complicates it in a beta sort of way. I can still tell your soul is Delta though.
Only betas are assertive and bold now, I would like to hear from you a single valid argument in favor of Airborne being a beta. The only reason you guys state he is a beta seems to be his sexual behavior, that by no means is characterized as an aggressor behavior because this typing denies the purposefulness of Airborne's sexual behavior. You guys ignore the internal psychological intentionality and mechanics of his sexual activity. Aggressors and victims are inherently egoistical and non altruistic people, they are only concerned about themselves, and this is a blatant truth no matter how gammas and betas try to lie on this subject. So, this is their egoical essence also expressed in their sexual conduct, their sexuality is based on POWER, on the affirmation and imposition of oneself's ego in detriment of other's, in the denial and negligence of the partner's necessities, no matter if the individual in question is a victim or an aggressor or what role they play in the sexual praxis... Inside them, it's always the same. The psycho-mechanical law that defines these two quadras is to "affirm myself and fuck up others", the strategy they use for attaining this objective is defined by the rational functions in their quadras. When betas and gammas have sex, they are NEVER concerned about their partners, they just want to have pleasure THEMSELVES, they have sex psychologically alone, they are only concerned to feel the maximum pleasure they can, so they don't hesitate to do the nastiest and most sub-human things for having pleasure, even appealing to humiliation and sheer aggression, because they are totally oblivious to their partner's internal states and simply ignore the needs of their "lovers". But this works! Since one of the partners is a passive egoist and the other and active self-centered individual. Their objective when they think about sex in only to have pleasure for themselves, they don't give a fuck about what their "lovers" are gonna feel, only their own selves are concerned, this is egoistical sex. Two betas or gammas on a bed are only two people exploiting each other.
Airborne uses mild aggression as a way for increasing pleasure for BOTH individuals involved in sexual act, his girl and him. It's obvious to me that his sexuality is not based on egoism but he truly is a "caregiver", and you people are mixing him up with betas by his sexual behavior only because you guys don't know how to interpret the two patterns of sexual expression in socionics, you stick yourself to literal and shallow interpretation of the categories and also of the phenomena observed in loco. A Caregiver is deeply concerned with the welfare and the pleasure or their partner, no matter what they do, it's mostly aimed to the pleasure of his partner, Airborne is not sexually egoistical, he is not concerned ONLY about his sexual satisfaction. When we talked about his sexual behavior, he kept implying that what most turned him on and makes him sexually excited is to see blatant expression of pleasure in his partner, his sexual boldness is his strategy to increase this, not to exploit his lover at the maximum (like betas and gammas). I'm sure that you, Airborne, wouldn't be happy after a sexual contact if you knew that you had an awesome night with someone but in the perspective of your girl, it was a horrible moment. I'm sure you'd hate to hear that! You'd feel that your pleasure was incomplete if you were not able to successfully share your ecstasy and sexual welfare with your partner. I'm positive that you'd think it was at least partially a spoiled night, you wouldn't be satisfied and would regret yourself if you hear from your girlfriend that your last sexual contact was really disappointing for her. I bet you'd ask yourself "Where did I go wrong?". When you say you like to use more "intensity" in your sexual contact, I'm sure you are 100% percent tuned with your partners welfare. You are a caregiver, you inherently want to share pleasure, aesthetic value, beauty, and sensuality. You don't want to keep the pleasure for yourself like a desperate sexual paranoid, namely Betas and Gammas! Their sexual behavior gives me the impression that they are loveless, thus they don't trust their partners, their relationships are only based on mutual and convenient sexual exploitation, or also, most idiosyncratically in the case of gammas, on the material power. So, if betas are having sex and have a partner today, they will fear for the oncoming day... Because their relationships don't have any kind of moral and spiritual compromise! It's solely based on sexual "Colonialism", there is no civility in their social and romantic instentionality, today they may find you sexually "profitable", but tomorrow they will surely find richer ores of salt to explore, and you'll be abandoned to your own helplessness. That's why they have to fear, their interpersonal bounds are inherently instable and feeble. The history of humankind endorses my view!
There are many alphas and deltas who like milder doses of aggressiveness. But the purpose is always collective and altruistic.
Delta and Alpha relationships are based on compromise, mutual realization and self-completion. Don't believe in lie tellers.
Last edited by Quote Unquote; 08-11-2010 at 09:14 PM.
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OK, at this point I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm quite sure you don't get what I'm saying.
It kinda surprises me to hear that from an ILI, I assume that I have to figure out what exactly are you thinking of and what you overlook. IMO people interpret the notion of "body language" differently.
I never said that symbols and/or conventions are internal by nature.
I said that ability to communicate using body language - which people do all the time in each other's presence by facial expressions, looks, movements etc. - is NOT symbolic/conventional and you can't assign labels to them. Just as with your example of licking one's lips - it doesn't work.
Yet some people can discern others' emotional states better than others, even though it can't be broken down into particular movements and their meanings. Their interpretation of this is holistic - internal; they don't consciously analyze every single observation, but work with an impression of the whole derived from it. These people also happen to be, coincidentally, Fe-egos. Weird, isn't it?
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Yes you are right, this is one of the reasons why I´m sure I´m a caregiver. I do not do anything at all just for my own fun, if the girl wouldn´t like it, or if I don´t see how that could not bring pleasure to her. And yes I get the most from sex from my partner´s satisfaction and what mostly turns me on and stimulates me during the sexual act is to see that the woman is actually enjoying it, and to see that it´s being bad to her is what mostly turns me off.
I don´t see any purpose in having sex ONLY FOR MY PLEASURE, IF THAT WAS THE CASE I´D BE HAPPILY MASTURBATING ALL MY LIFE, NO NEED TO BOTHER GETTING SOME WOMAN. The best thing is that in a relationship I´m able to offer genuine pleasure and to know that I did that makes me feel like my duty as a man is being accomplished by myself and this makes me happy.
We are products of Nature, if one cannot serve Nature, then one is useless for Her, and all one really deserves is to die to give way to a better more efficient lifeform, as hard and dry as it seems, this is just Nature.
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This totally rules out any possibility of you being a Beta or a Gamma, it's impossible since your sexual behavior is 100% incongruent the aggressor-victim paradigm. Not only this, the whole of your mentality and inter-relational approach is decisively anti-beta. The only possibility that remains is being Alpha or Delta. I really disagree with the idea of you being part of a merry and democratic quadra. For me, your behavior is totally aristocratic and serious.
Have you ever taken close look at your strong idealism? You really dream about a Utopia of a perfect world, where order, ideals, morals, honor, altruism, rationality and truth would rule every aspect of society. This strong ideal of perfection is totally and only Ne related, and you would only fit into the Idealisc and Metaphysical quadras, namely Alpha and Delta, in detriment of Materialistic and Prosaic quadras, Beta and Gamma. Your sympathy toward Nazism and Ahmadinejad are not a simple coincidence. Nazism was most surely a delta movement, those who think that it was beta should speak out now and prove this completely wrong conception. These people don't know jackshit about what Nazism was, they think that it was only because ****** was a really atypical EIE - his purposefulness and ideal direction are totally not seen in people like Gilly, because ****** himself was simply the SPOKESMEN of the Ideal system, the HIGH-PRIEST that only figures as a symbol of authority. People don't analyze and systematize the meaning, implication and expression of every aspect of this political ideology - that not by chance contradicts 100% the beta and gamma quadras. The objective of Nazism was, accordingly to its own doctrine and every expression of their practiced and theorized agenda, the total annihilation of egoistical leanings of men and the creation of a collectivist, moralistic and noble society. Betas have nothing to do with nobleness and altruism (the same can be applied to gammas), neither with order nor with ideals. Both Decisive quadras have as their Modus Operandi pure and simple egoism. Order and Principle are by no means connected to the Ti function, they are absolutely Ne elements. Ni is a much weaker and feeble kind of Intuintion... Imperfect and handicapped, concerned with the most immediate world of motion, time and material illusion. Ni is a superfluous phenomenology; Ne is the exalted throne of Truth and Ontology. Ni is the function of the half blinds. Higher realms of the divine, of pure abstraction and perfection are totally unreachable to them. Ideals and Idealism can only happen in Abstractionist and Metaphysical quadras (Alpha and Delta).
A world without Betas and Gammas is not only desirable but the ultimate objective of humanity, the total annihilation of the members of decisive quadras is an essential agenda engraved on the soul of every single human being. The extinction of these weak and feeble men is the only direction that our spirits take in our journey. This high command is imprinted in the very psyche of Betas and Gammas themselves, self-destruction is what they actually claim deep inside, it's the hidden agenda of these both quadras that don't know the meaning of the word sacrifice. It's the ironical secret of these people: inferior, faint, spiritless and fundamentally defective.
A world without Alphas and Deltas is totally unconceivable by mind, spirit and nature. These quadras represent only what is most truthfully human and elevated. Listen to this: Civilization, Society, Culture and Knowledge exist ONLY by the sake these two quadras, nothing would exist on earth if not by our restless struggle and sacrifice. Nothing of value and actual meaning has been created by the decisive quadras. Those who deny this self-evident truth inherently like to delight themselves in shallow conceptualization and futile interaction with reality. Alpha and Delta are the right pillar of the Tree of Life (Qabalah), the pillar of creation and intiative, the pillar of light, the civilizational anabolism. Betas and Gammas, are reactive forces not able of creating anything, but only destroying and obliterating what light creates, they are those who decompose the dead corpses, men and women who live on putrid flesh. They are the pillar of darkness, the barbaric catabolism. Those who deny this clear intuition are only able to analyze people and societies on the shallow surface of skin, and cannot see the implication and hidden direction of others' attitudes. Nothing would exist without Deltas, your quadra represents the most profound altruism, and men are social animals, without abnegation and self-sacrifice, humans would never have survived as a specie. And this can NEVER EVER be achieved without strong idealism. If you confine a bunch of barbaric beta troglodytes inside a restricted area and let them live there ONLY on their own for an indeterminate span of time, the result will be this : they would kill each other for lack of cooperation and aggravated egoism, and the last one who would survive, would end up committing suicide!
Ein neuer Mann
oh my god...lol.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Actually I am almost primarily interested in sex for the purpose of seeing my partner orgasm.
Who dropped this quack on planet earth?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
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Pinocchio, in which world do you live in? Is it the same world that accepts human beings as inherently equal and capable of the same? People who believe in equality of human beings (no matter in what sub-group they might fit in: gender, race, socionics quadra, etc) are in total contradiction with themselves and with socionics. If you can LEARN something from socionics is that human beings are inherently unequal and incapable of achieving the same perfection. If you really are an authentic and not superfluous ENTp, you will be able to conjugate socionics, enneagram, sociology, psychology, populational genetics, occultism, philosophy, you name it, and then achieve higher truths. Your interpretation and application of socionics and enneagram is childish, shallow and with no humanistic meaning. Not really different from ******s who use astrology as a way for finding a date. You cannot draw soulful and legitimate lessons from this system, this is blatant to me. Your application of socionics doesn't give you higher knowledge on reality, this is obvious too! You are not an efficient ILE if you still can't overcome your emotional limitations and be strictly rational. What kind of ILE are you Pinocchio? An mediocre Euroidiot who praises Obama and swollow every kind of concept they try to forcefeed you? I have no respect toward ILEs and Alphas who cannot interpret the reality ONLY by themselves. It is our duty Pinocchio, to be the light on this world full of darkness. I cannot blame my duals and my activation types for not being wise. But you Pinocchio!!! You are failing in a really miserable way in your life mission as an ILE. You are an alpha NT and you are doing nothing for deserving and honoring this social position.That's a developed comment on your sexual habits which anyone observed, but doesn't replace the reasoning for typing. In the case of Ammonius Hermiae, it's mostly rambling, I'm curious what other
I have an Argentinian friend, an LII, and we never stop to mock and to lament how dumb and stupid Euroidiots are. C'mon Pinocchio, I just read an article some days ago that wasn't supposed to be really known around the world, because it contradicts the crappy political correctness agenda that Euroidiots and Rednecks from USA insist in live up. It states that the cultural production in Europe is in steep decline... Don't be naive, my good identical, you people who aren't authentic enough for living up to reality are condemning yourself and everyone around you. The world sucks because people don't want to live up to truth anymore, but instead, to live up of the convenience of their own feelings, Euro****ts and Rednecks forgot the power of objectivity and delight themselves in the vices and whims of their subjective approach to reality. Tell me something my dear identical: is it possible to any kind of society and civilization to remain healthy at same that it instigates subjectivity and individuality in its members? Tell me please your point of view. Crime rates are raising every where in your continent, and don't deceive yourself in thinking that your continent is only becoming more and more perfect, culturally matured and in steep civilizational ascension. Do you believe that? If yes, let me take a deeeeeeeeeeep breath for laughing really loud from this chair I am now. If you CAN see the sheer decline and degeneration of your continent and western world as a whole, what is the reasonable explanation you have for this? Since 1950 we don't have even A SINGLE valuable philosopher or scientist. Our intellectual guides are charlatans like Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Noah Chomsky, Foucault and Nietzsche! The decline is clear since the end of 19th century.
You guys from Europe are totally brainwashed and are becoming with time a totally disconnected and disintegrated corpus of people, just like in USA, but not in a so severe state of corruption yet. Look at USA and have glimpse into your future, mein Kamerad aus Rumänien. You don't see morally developped human beings there as a rule, Americans are bionic people with no civility, an artificial nation made of Technetium. This is your fate and the direction toward where your actions point at! Don't be naive my friend, I'm tired of my quadra's naiveness, and the worst of all, of the naiveness of my fellow alpha NT, that is a sheer demonstration of incompetence. I had enough of it, especially on this forum where political correctness - so to say, the affirmation of people's egoistic leanings, the indulgence in their irrational impulses and emotional disorganization, and a life direction focused on vices and whims, in stead of cold logic, that is objective, thus not individualistic, thus altruistic, moral and civilizational - seems to be the pseudo-code of anti-ethics that people here know. My sweet quadra brother, if you can see all this I described in current world, why are you so complacent toward it? Are you lacking the divine inspiration and courage that God gave ILEs? ILE is a type of prophets, you should know that well, we have our own interpretation and ideal for the world, that is inherently altruistic and objectivist.
Regarding everything I said about Gammas and Betas, I'm by no means the first person that has ever said this, and I'm by no means the last who will say it. It's been repeated through-out the history of philosophy, theology and mysticism since pre-historical times. Immanuel Kant also thought that betas sucked, so did Carl Jung, just to give you two examples. If you are this naive and still believe in a world where most people have a good nature and are community oriented (hahahahaha!), please ask Aiss to give her opinion on this subject. If she is an honest person (what I already know she is not), she will readily admit my point of view, and say: "yes, I am that egoistical". I'm baffled that you can't see this in her, her compromise here on this forum is not with ultimate truth and production of unbiased knowledge , her compromise actually is directed only toward herself, she only wants to boast her self-esteem (egoism) and be always right no matter how illogical she is (egoism). She thinks she is crap, like any ILI, and uses this forum as a way to love herself more. This is a so recurrent motif among ILIs. Since I already know she is gonna lie to you and you are going to believe it, ask her to give you a clear and solid demonstration, in a strictly socionics approach, about the possibility (even if remote) of altruism and spiritual nobleness inside gamma. Ask her a Cartesian demonstration. If you see that she can't do that, come back and ask me to do the same, and I'll show you mathematically, that all my knowledge is based on strong foundation, not on stupid prejudice. Unfortunately you are the kind of person who expects that chronic liars will tell you the truth... what a paradox! They will only give you half and broken facts, they will show you their shallow and uncompromising delusional verisimilitude, and will tell nothing about their ultimate inner reality.
Think about this:
"Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other." - Carl Gustav Jung
Bye bye.
Ein neuer Mann
Very good post, IMHO.
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It doesn't help to state your opinion and not demonstrate it.
Last edited by Quote Unquote; 08-12-2010 at 03:44 AM. Reason: My English sucks, and if you agree, try to learn my native tongue then, I'm sure you won't sound any better.
Ein neuer Mann
In Hinduism, the Asura (Sanskrit: असुर) are a group of power-seeking deities, sometimes referred to be sinful and materialistic. They were opposed to the Devas. Both groups are children of Kasyapa.
Asura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look! Asuras in the left adn Devas in the right, the basic universal conflict between catabolism(Ni/Se) and anabolism(Ne/Si).
I'm really eager to see what kind of crap your are going to come out with now.
Last edited by Quote Unquote; 08-12-2010 at 03:53 AM.
Ein neuer Mann
LOL, when i read those posts I pretty much figured Ammonius Hermiae = Airborne, but now i'm realizing Airborne really is a troll(I know ppl said it before but i was giving him the benefit of the doubt).
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I think Ammonius = Airborne :. Airborne is a troll.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
hyou are mighty presumptuous
you use a lot of big words and imagery, but it amounts to very little, especially considering that your view of the different quadras are childish - like pinnochio said you do raise a few good points in the sense of the equality assertion but you mix it up with so much bullshit its barely worth responding to.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" isand not
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm mistaken again, the always present beta altruism will most surely be assistent and present in my quest for wisdom, since I'm so poorly furnished of it, I'm devoid from truth, you know, my good friend. An IEI, a Ni + Fe, knows much more about reality than me , a Ne + Ti! Oh, I'm so pitiful! Oh bitter riddle of the Moirae! I am childish because your objectively and rationally knows that I'm mistaken, thus you can prove me wrong, and will, right? Since truthful peopel have nothing to fear, and they don't house themselves into the egoism of not sharing the truth with the whole humankind. Because you are a so altruistic beta who is concerned that lies will not propagate, and also truth and civility will triumph over Alpha and Delta barbarism, right? Altruistic people are always concerned with the whole of society and humanity and ware solicitous toward those who are so eager to be enlightened by the truth like me... If not, you would necessarily prove yourself egoistic and ignorant and confirm mys o called lie, right? A so humble and ignorant man! How can I ever be right at anything? Oh, my good lord, why do you turn your back against me? My dear lord!!! I beg you, help me with this issue that I need so much to know! Why do you despise me and keep the truth only to yourself? No man can guide himself safely through the chaotic paths of this confusing world without the brilliance of the wise men like you, Oh Lord Pirate!! Oh sir! Why don't you help me?? You said yourself you are so noble and willing to help everyone who wants to know the path of light! Oh Mon Segnieur! Why do you ignore me and let me perish in the dark and blinding mists of ignominy? I will suffer and be consumed by the pains that ignorance so harshly inflict in our infirm souls! Oh sir, you promiced that you were noble and would always help me due your lack of egocentrism! Oh my Father of Intelligence, why do you let me alone, since intelligence is the only companion that a man can truly have? What intelligence is this that leaves men in the turmoil of their stupidity? Real intelligence is bold and impose itself upon the ferine tongues of gentiles! So, why you do that my lord? How can you remain coherent and cohesive to the world inside and outside yourself if you hesitate to make all the truthfulness that resides inside your spirit reflect on the silver mirrors of this inferior external world? What is truth if not the force that unites and elevate everything into the One and its divine spherical communion? You lie my lord! You are a casket of Ariman, the Father of All Lies! Stay away from me with your fallen vociferation! You are the ears and tongue of temptation, stay away from me and bury yourself even more into this mausoleum of silence that succumbs upon your fainting breath.
"I shall assume that your silence gives consent" - Plato, Cratylus, XLI
"The Antichrist is what divides men instead of uniting them; it is a spirit of dispute, the obstinacy of
the theologians and sectarians, the impious desire of appropriating the truth to oneself, AND EXCLUDING
others from it, or of forcing the whole world to submit to the narrow yoke of our judgments." - Eliphas Levi - The key of the Mysteries
INTERPRETATION
You're a walking proof that I'm right. Only concerned about yourself, if you had any kind of fondness to truth you would like to defend it or attain it. Facts, for betas, are just a third rate article of luxury not more valuable than the "annyoing" screams of suffering around them. There is something really obvious here, you call me childish not because my concepts are wrong or incoherent - of what no one here was able to prove - but only for the reason that my world view CONTRADICTS your own world conception - a weak one, I should say. What value could have a man who only bases his world interpretation in the subjectivity of his feelings? If you don't know, feelings in the Occultist tradition are the trap through what Satan enslaves humanity, feelings always, and absolutely always, are an expression of Pride and Egoism, and this can also be rationally shown. If you are not intelligent enough for understanding this, please don't even address me the word, I'm way stuffed of degenerate men like you. Only when you really show yourself as honest and humble, you'll be heard by me, not because i don't want to give you attention, but because you don't want value me as the human being who is just fond of the real correctness. What evil can reside in this? Your egoism can been proved objectively. You call me childish for the only reason that I disagree with your weakest world views. Now look thePirate, how can you claim to be reasonable and objetive if you base your reasoning solely on subjectivity and emotionality? Don't try to fool me, you know I'm right, you are an IEI. What kind of altruism is this that doesn't know the real acceptance of staring and facing both good evil in a man and be realistic toward their actual nature? What kind of altruism is this that cannot overcome the barriers of subjectivity? What kind of civility is this that only wants to live the fantasy of a world full of farries and flawless men? How can you call yourself self-sacrifing and a non-egoist who exercises in acceptance if you are not able to accept people and be truthful to their defects and qualities at same time? And also trying to create this transvestism that masks deep defaults into a drag queen fallacy? What good can you provoke on people if you let their vices, defects and lies take deep root into their essence? You should know that no evolution can be attained by compliance and commodity in relation tothe current status quo, especially, by being passive toward all this social and moral corruption. No one can correct himself by letting others indulge themselves in their villainy, and I'm not talking about the superficial concept of villainy that you have inside your mind. Humans are essentially collectivist, not only up to their unconsciousness but also the very existence of their consciousness is collective, there is no way to affect yourself and not affect the all the others; and by changing the others you'll also change yourself, for good or evil. There is no greater harm to humanity than confining yourself into the wall of your own littleness. Your basic nucleus of reasoning, thePirate, is "I", Ego:
FIRST CHAPTER OF THE ANNALS OF ARISTOTELEAN LOGICS
thePirate Syllogism:
I think X
Anyone who thinks non-X is childish
Ammonius thinks Y
Y is non-X
Ammonius is childish
hahahahaha great job!! You are our IEI Aristotle, I mean "Arsetotle".
You are a stupid robot, man!
I will propose a challenge now, if anyone can show me a really self-sacrifing and puritane beta on this forum, I will retract myself and write on my nickname on this forum: "I'm lier!". but don't even dare to send me these trained monkeys I see all around this place, who assume a fake persona in front of society and who hold another "self", behind the cameras. I talk about those who are trained in the mellifluous speech and in the deceit of forms devoid of content. Those who set themselves to live up to two antagonistic souls. This includes you thePirate, most surely.
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." - Matthew 6:24
At least no one here can claim that I have two measures and two judgments, I have a single face and a single identity, I state what needs to be stated: that is truth; and if I'm not supported by truth, it will readily be shown at my face, since truth doesn't bend itself in front of lies, but always the opposite... especially now that I'm in the presence of so enlightened Philosopher called thePirate of San Francisco.
"You will be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Betas and Gammas are not able to do this distinction, that why they quadras are characterized by all kinds of vices.
Last edited by Quote Unquote; 08-12-2010 at 05:47 AM.
Ein neuer Mann
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Just to remind you guys, Discojoe is the Ape of Naples!
Ein neuer Mann
Lmfao. I used to hang out with this LII, he was a football player, a lot bigger than me muscle wise, and whenever we'd get drunk I'd do absurd shit to fuck with him like get all intense up in his face and tell him to hit me and shit. He would just sort of roll his eyes nervously and try to ignore me. It made his IEI fucktoy want my nuts hard, but I never gave them to her because it gave me so much leverage over him to know, like an itch in the back of his mind, that I could have her whenever I wanted, even though I never would. It was great.Everyone already knows the imperative wetdream of INXjs is to cleanse the world of "scary"
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
ITS THE INTERNETTT MMMAAAANNN SE POLAR PARADISE AND BBQ RIBS
Who is this wall of text writing cult leader. Ah, I know, it's your Dalai Lama master, right Obersturmführer Airborne?
I remember a long time ago Pirate went off on this Betas suck schtick. Shortly thereafter, he became one of us. Hmmm...
EDIT: nvm, I just read one of your other posts. Like, barely worth laughing at dude. I don't think I've ever written a post more full of bullshit about sun and moon and stars and pure intuition and bullshit. Oh my god, seriously, please keep posting sir.
How about this:
Beta is the best quadra, and the reason we know it is the best quadra is because the forces of evil and darkness are on our sides, and ultimately these powers are far stronger than your measly consideration for the welfare of others. The true purity of the soul is in the darkness of Ni combined with the awe-inspiring POWER of Se, for in truth, POWER is all that survives, and it is the Great Law of Nature beyond which noting can escape. Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! I feel the power of a thousand evil beta souls coursing through me! Carl Jung's feeble spirit of love cannot overcome Me. Behold I am made destroyer of LIIs! I shall bodyslam you in socionics hatred! I shall smother you in quadra-related fire! Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! The spirit of darkness is within me and shall extinguish your puny light, oh foolish one! Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! The scent of battle and blood is on my brow, and in my depths I feel new longing for the fire! I shall gratify myself by feasting on your bones, for all that is is but myself increasing and increasing and increasing until I, Great Serpent, swallow the sun of your foolish extroverted intuition! Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Also: re: post 1950s intellectuals, I like John Ashbery's poetry and Sam Shepard has written some damn good plays, as has Edward Albee, both post 1950. Not to mention Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott who are still setting the planet on fire with real poetry. Also, you must remember that it normally takes a good 50 years for us to recognize anyone who is genius as actually genius. That's when we catch up with them. Also, Stevens' last collection was published post 1950.
Last edited by silverchris9; 08-12-2010 at 09:30 AM.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
Yep.
LOL @how this sucks.
The raving lady who hates me (WorkaholicsAnon) even said I was Hermius.
This Emmius Herminius is who was formerly Claudius Almagest, he´s my friend, but we´re definitely not the same person LOL.
He is not the LII I´m into either - she´s a she.
This proves how much Workaholics projects on me her own tricks and evil. Stop projecting shit on me just leave me alone I do not want to be bothered by you, go to hell, fuck off, Workaholics. I know you´re ESTP but would you ever admit that? Better project it on me. Fuck you, you´re going on ignore.
I don't mean you are 100% percent incapable of objevtive thought, but of course you are inferior than any ILE or LII, thinking the opposite is to throw away the whole significance of socionics, enneagram, astrology, numerology, Plato, Socrates, Qabalah, René Descartes, Leibniz, etc. You are preaching the fallacy of universal equality here.
A fallacy? Socionics theory tells it other wise. I hope you can endorse you view by actual demonstration. can you? What do you think about rationalizing about the fallacy of universal equality and equivalence?
Some people here tell me that most typings here erroneous. And I do see this, people who have totally incompatible enneagram types conjugated with socionics types, like IEI who are 6s, ILEs who are 8s, LIEs who 3s...
Funny, you don't understand the nature of the subjectivity/objectivity dichotomy. this very same dichotomy is expressed in Nietzsche's works, but with different and more classic names:
Subjectivity = Dyonisiac Principle
Objectivity = Appolonian Principle
You totally dyonisiac, subjective and irrational, don't live the illusion that IEIs can be rational, you keep talking strictly personal perspective and is never able to trace a logical system of demonstration of your point of view. You keep talking like woman (subjectivity is the feminine principle - Objectivity, the masculine principle) and never try to show your point of view. I cannot accept a point of view that is not Cartesianly demonstrated, then most Socionics' types are not a fountain of wisdom for me.
Again your subjectivity and lack of logics, if you don't oppose a point of view, you necessarily agree with it, there is nothing like a milder and intermediate position between agreeing and disagreeing with a respective piece of information. It's one or the other, always. If you accept something and don't oppose to it it's because these many "contradictions" you call always find house and representaion with your subjectivity. Only subjectivity is plural and has many perspectives, since the subject is not universal and has many representatives, and is not altruistic by any means. If you accept and think that something is valid, for you or for someone else it's valid, you agree with it and act according to the same principle that is the affirmation of egoism, subjectivism and individualism, since many "contradictions" (many egoic affirmations) are acceptable in your world view. Real contradiction inherently ends up in conflict, because it's by it's owndefinition an opposed force, an oncoming battle, an incoherence, a mismatch. Actually you have never disagreed and have never seen these so called "contradictory views" as really real contradictions since you don't oppose yourself to them.
Can you explain your point again, it makes no sense. Why do you debate against my views? probably because you see them as a harmful lie. There is only one truth about everything, and all the rest are lies. The truthfulness is single and the lies are many. If so, isn't it weird that you vehemently opposed my world view? the theory of social meaning of each quadra that you oppose yourself so pationately is mine. Remember, the truth is single and the lies are many. This is a demonstrated axiom that exists since the poem of the Eleatic School of Philosphy composed by Parmenides, it's called Aletheia. You accept many contradictions, since you accept many "truths", the truth is single, what you actually accept are many lies. The truth is universal, don't you think? Nothing that is not single is not universal,since there will always be something out that is not part of you.
You are one of those dumbfucks who think that there isn't anything on the world like inferior and superior, wrong and right, there is only the "different". More than one truth is necessarily a lie.
You also mean that there are truthful lies and non-childish lies, this is dumb. Is there any kind of lie or contradiction that can be a benefit for anyone? Aren't lies always harmful, since they draw a fake blueprint of the reality and engender misleading prospects of action? Think again.
I see myself inclined to think that you succumbed to emotional "analysis" and shallow subjectivistic world views in stead of remaining steadfast to non-personal principles. People who are nice to individuals are not Altruistic, learn this my boy, the real altruists are only concerned with the global body of society, we are concerned with the abstract force that bounds everything as a single entitiy, being nice to people have nothing to do with altruism, since it's a kind of interaction that is only concerned in satisfying people's egoical needs. Being a nice, polite and a kind person has NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with universal and global understanding. Many of the most altruistic people on the world were ILEs, who didn't give a fuck about peoples individual needs, but to the whole societal necessities, like Richard Wagner.
Of course I will, since there isn't any altruistic beta on this planet and in none other human world in this universe. As I said, if you were capable of real and porweful objectivism you would have proven your view much before, and not rely on person experience and perspective. You'd show it through the axioms and postulates of socionics what you couldn't do even now. It's seems that you don't understand that Betas and Gammas are power seeking people, inherently (Se/Ni). This totally rules out any possibility of self-sacrifice. If you can't endure the laws of socionics, please, go be more thuthful to your chaotic and subjective life, and forget any kind of systematization, since you can only accept the political correct and shallow layers of the theory implications.
Ask Gilly if he is not inherently power seeking, ask Discojoe the same, since you cannot see the blatant mark of their materialistic greed impressed on their faces.
"Making an ass out of yourself", really objective mental articulation, my boy!
C'moooon kid, are you still living that phase of life when you question all stereotypes and is not intellectually bold enough for verifying the occurrence of stereotypes both in loco and in the abstract theory? What you call stereotypes, I name statistical truths. Stereotypes don't arise out thin air, my son.
You don't know jackshit about Altruism as you obviously can't describe it, IEIs are lesser intellectuals, like all victims, that can never impose a deep criticism and verification of every single term they use. Most of the the analytical basis that you are using as a support for your "anti-analysis" are derivative of emotional prejudice.
I don't base my conclusions on emotions neither on supeficial expression and contact with people, and this is exactly what you are talking about. If you are so naive here that it's seems that you don't consider the fact that I dealt with betas and gammas during most of my life and I know these people well. I can assure you, they are the same everywhere. (I have two aggressor in my family who have lived with me since birth, I know these types better than my hand palms. I don't talk out of a ivory tower).
My main Text:
YES, I really mean that by being a ILE I can reason more clearly and profoundly than you. it's more than time to admit that people from different types are no way capable of the same things. Do you agree with that? If it wasn't like this, socionics wouldn't exist and everyone would be a shapeless infusion on which any kind of form can be forged. People have rigid internal structure, people's nature is impossible to be changed and impossible to be transformed. People are the way they are, and cannot suffer radical metamorphosis when incarnated in these bodies. The nature of the psyche molds the whole nature of the body, if one could change his psychological nature he would also need to change his whole body for not collapsing. Since this is obviously true, we have to agree that people have different leanings and different aptitudes. These, most naturally, would engender different expressions of nervous processing, that can be useful or not useful, advantageous or not advantageous for certain activities. You surely know that many people can't think clearly and objectively, so, why would this happen? If socionics, at least partially, describes the informational processes inside someone's psyche, why wouldn't it also show us who are those who are more adept to scientific and philosophical thought and those who would be more adept to physical and body activity? And why wouldn't it also give us a track on those who are more objectivistic (reasonable) and those who are more subjectivistic (emotional). You can't deny this thePirate! Socionics indeed states and makes it clear about who is going to be good at what. Objectivism and rationality can also be used in art - Richard Wagner and Anton Chekhov, for example. But subjectivity can never be used in science, philosophy, theology or psychology.
Explain me then the total lack of IEIs and EIEs in legitimate genius in science, philosophy, mathematics, engineering, architecture, liguistics, you name it! If you are as capable of objective thought as we are, how can you guys never have any position of real and meaningful notoriety in these fields?
You should know that subjectivism is shadow of objectivism. Rationality NEVER EVER goes along with emotions.
If it wasn't like that, how can you explain the obvious speriority of some types in some activities if compared to others. You are too naive if you think that rationality is bless for all types and for all men. Meet an ESI, and tell me what you think. If you still disagree with me you either don't know what rationality means or you haven't met an actual ESI.
again, you are starring only on the thin surface. Altruism is Ne, not Fi, its definition has nothing to do with ethical functions, if it did, SEEs would be inherently identified as altruistic, so would be ESIs, who, by the way, are always E2s, and if you don't know, E2s live basically into the real of their own will, imposing it on others and exchanging favors through emotional blackmail. It is the irrational function Ne of what altruism is made of, never Fi, rational functions are rather tools by which the reality is shaped. Irrational functions are the most realistic components that show us the pattern of world realization that exists inside someones psyche. Altruism, hahahahaha, is not related to feeling functions, since it means an orientation and base layed on abstract and universalitic comprehension and awareness. Altruism is matter of knowledge, consciousness and interconection. Fi is rather the function that regulates the bounds between people but never determines the character and the direction of these bounds (centrifugal or centripetal), it also tells nothing about the leanings of these interpersonal interractions. Direction and leaning are connected to the irrational functions (Se/Ni=chaos : Ne/Si=Order). That's why we have these strongly egoistical SEEs and these totally whimsical ESIs. The nature of someone's spiritual leanings are determined by the irrational functions, Ne/Si for universalistic leanings, and Se/Ni for particularistic leanings. You'll never ever find a beta who is "universalistically" tuned, neither you'll ever find a ILE with particularistic leanings. Look at Pinocchio, look at me, always concerned with universal principles and actions. You may have ILEs who are less aware and less assimilated to their universalistic laws, but their base of world interpretation and life strategy will never be based on an particularistic axis. I hope you can understand me. Altruism is universalism, and that's all.is the only function that determines altruism, and quadras that have this element have a more collective awareness and are way more idealistic. The difference, my friend, between alphas and deltas, lie essentially on their rational components. They are simply the tools for implementing their universal agendas. Both are, as I said before, Metaphysical and Idealistic quadras. Deltas are focused on the efficiency of interpersonal interraction, for mobilization and cooperation. it's not by mere chance that Japan, a country whose cultural persona embodied much of delta values, can be considered the most civilized and altruistic country in the later ages. The efficiency of such country surpassed anything know by humanity during World War II, Russian-Japanese war. The Japanese empire, since the feudal age as I am aware of, used to win battles against their enemies in situations of brutal numerical difference. Just lile Orcs (Betas) and Humans (Deltas). I think that anyone who reads Tolkien - who surely was a delta, most probably an EII - can see clearly the conflict between Beta Barbaric and Sub-Human forces agains all the glory of civilization, so to speak, Deltas.
the advice you gave to me can simply be translated as to take as basis of my analyzis superficial interaction and cheap chat. you deceived yourself by thinking that "nice" people equals to more interpersonally tuned. This is the same mistake that make people think that everyone is equally intelligent and capable of objective thought. when we interact with people, your channels of interractions are limited and shaped by the social context, by the mood, and by the purposefulness of the chat. You can't think that someone is altruistic if he/she treats people with flattery in shallow momentary interaction. remember this, Niceness is by no means altruism since it only satisfies our egoistic needs, altruism is emotionless ans self abnegating. You think that altruism is to offer yourself to some and deny yourself to others. This is by no means right. Betas and Gammas are concerned only about people who have significance to their interior reality. This can be seen on this forum, and everyone who can analyze this abundant data that exist on this website can see this fact. What is the merit in caring only about people who have significance for yourself? This is, by ultimate analysis, a concern only about your own ego, since, if those people didn't affect your egoism, if these people were not by any means useful for you, you wouldn't even care about them. And real care is not a product of enforced moral codes. How can you claim you care about people and you simply don't put everyone is the same level of most important and meaningful beings. There is no half liking, no half concern, people who occupy lesser levels of our "affection scale" are not moderately liked, they are disliked in the same way as people you hate. This kind of incomplete fondness is nothing more than a hate in denial. Real care has nothing to do with intraquadra relationships, because these relationships only touch the necessities of the egos, not of our universal basis, since they are are determined by valued and devalued functions of each that affect positively each ego type. Its for our egoism, not our authentic social living. That's why people should not indulge themselves in intraquadra relationships, because they will help nothing to enhance your world comprehension.
Your confusion again, arises from your inherent subjectivity. Altruism has NOTHING to do with emotions, absolutely nothing. It has to do with love, that by the way, IS NOT an emotion. These silly and stupid beta poets who proclaim the superiority of their love are nothing more than liars, since they live in passion, not in love. Passion i sthe oppression of materialism over spirit and reason, that's not a concidence that passion was vilified by ancient Greeks and its root is the Greek word Pathos, the same of pathology... "Desease, Suffering" Have you ever thought about the fact the enneatype that represents love, the 9, is NOT in the emotional center of the enneagram (around the 3) and, in stead, it is the basis of instinctive center. Love is a leaning of the soul, love is a degree of high awareness, you love when you want to annihilate yourself and fusion your own person with the spirit of "wholeness". And this never happens through emotions, by the very opposite, emotions are, as it is already known since the dawn of time, the oppression of matter and superficial life on the property of the soul and feelings are total enemies of love, because they separate people. be wise to interpret my words. Stupid are those people who believe that love is an emotion, they insanely believe that emotions unite people, but in truth, the only thing they make is to make people more aware of their selfishness and imprisoned inside their own egos. Emotional people only care about themselves. This is valid for any beta NF.
Do you think that it's a simple coincidence that the enneatype connected to happiness, higher awareness and connection with God, with Epiphany and Eudaemonia is the enneatype 7? It's not a simple coincidence that it's considered the number of intelligence and the number of angels in the Qabalah and traditional numerology. In numerology, 7 is labelled as the number of reason also. 7, in the enneagram is entitled the number of Light! 7 is also called the number of life, of liveness. The enneatype 7 has as it main center of operation the mental center and as auxiliary center the instinctive nucleus, and they REPRESS the emotional nucleus. It's the enneatype that represents the spirit (what is a redundant conclusion if you take into account the other definitions). Look at this correlation:
Angels=Evolved Spirits=Rationality=Happiness=Epiphany=Illuminatio n=Light=Life=Eudaemonia=REPRESSION OF FEELINGS AND SUBJECTIVITY
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6
Jesus represents the spirit here.
analyze these lyrics by a mystic band that does a lot of research on Qabalah adn Occutism (although they are not really goo d at it).
Fire of the Mind
Does death come alone or with eager reinforcements?
Does death come alone or with eager reinforcements?
Death is centrifugal
Solar and logical
Decadent and symmetrical
Angels are mathematical
Angels are bestial
Man is the animal
Man is the animal
The blacker the sun
The darker the dawn
Flashes from the axis
Flashes from the axis
On the hummingway to the stars
Holy holy, holy holy, holy oh holy
Holy holy, holy holy, holy
Holy holy, holy holy, holy
Man is the animal
The blacker the suns
The darker the dawn
The enneatype 4 is tradionally connected to the darkness, material opression, suffering, subjectivity, exalted emotions, etc. 4 is one of the numbers of Satan in Numerology, Astrology (connected to cancer, a retrograde sign) and Qabalah.
Altruism is not about emotions, emotional people are inherently egoistical and subjective. Can you objetively express emotions? No. Are IEIs and EIEs emotional types? yes. So, they necessarily are worse objectivists and altruists than ILEs, this is obvious and you stick to this naive and actually childish interpretation of the world where it's a land of wonders and fantasy where everyone can the same, and every is equally good and perfect. Wellcome to real world. I reapeat it, can you point out a reason for not being known even a singe successful IEI mathematican, philosopher (Schopenhauer sucked, anyone who reads him notices he is consumed by subjectivism, he is the father os voluntaristic philosophy, in other words, subjectivistic non-sense) scientist or man of Actual Art? Look, aren't emotions subjective? you have to answer yes, since they can only be lived inside the confinement of our bodies. In religion and occultism, pure spirits don't have emotions, but only objectivism and rationality, since their bodies are long gone (but of course, this depends on the degree of evolution that a spirit has, the lesser ones, who lived a more materialistic and emotional life, will be punished with damnation and intense suffering, because their base of existence during their lives were their bodies, not their minds, then they will suffer for the lost of the material prision).
To be altruistic is not to care about people's emotions, because emotions have no value to the collectivity, only to the individual, thus are egoistical and can't be "objectivated", I mean, made universal, there isn't anything like universal emotions, this is a paradox. Altruists don't considerate emotions in their objectives, since emotions are body products, and altruism is about universal and eternal goodness, the only thing to be concerned is the soul, thus rationality, because only this will live forever. The only thing that is universal is truth, truth is for all and only exist for all. It can only be attained by living according to reason and rejecting emotions. Truth is abstract, it is of from the same nature as the soul. Altruistic human beings are only concerned with the welfare of all, and this can't be achieved by the affirmation of emotions and some people's individuality over others. Altruism lives on truth because it's universal and connects all people, emotions don't connect anyone. Altruism has universal projects only concerned with people's soul, never aiming toward matter, body and emotion, since all this is individualistic. Death is not a taboo for Altruists, only for betas and gammas, who can only act based on strictly material world view (this includes emotions). Altruists are universal, I repeat it, thus they are rationalistic, unemotional, scientific and fearless, since material and bodily menaces mean nothing to us. Think again, ILEs are of inherently altruistic nature, the difference between us and IEEs is that we use logics for forging our universal projects - like many great ILEs have done. ILEs are creators of utopias, liek Plato who can only have been an infantile type, most probably an ILE. e was vehemently anti-democratic since this is not an efficient and meaningful political system, it's the affirmation individuality in detriment of the conjunct. Utopias are by definition, a project for the universe, since no utopia can be lived by a few. This totally contradicts your shallow conceptualization, that equals altruism to emotional superficiality.
Emotions are evil and only make people suffer as you can see implied in this enneagram book's frontispiece, made by the revelator of enneagram himself, Gurdjeff. Enneagram is a mystical system and can only be mastered with occult approach. The shallow and materialistic understanding that people of enneagram on this forum can never lead to any kind of authentic Knowledge.
Look what is in the right side, beside the emotional center of the enneagram. Look who is in the left side, protecting the mental nucleus of the enneagram. Draw your own conclusions taking into account that nothing is made by chance, everything has a meaning and interconnects with higher truths. God does not play dice, my friend.
Last edited by Quote Unquote; 08-12-2010 at 10:35 AM.
Ein neuer Mann
I'm gonna answer you tomorrow Pinocchio, I'm tired now. Good Night.
Ein neuer Mann
It is your Dalai Lama master. Good to know you have been carried all the time, if you know what I mean.
LOL @ what this thread has become.
I was asking for opinions abt my type then it became something completely different.
Quit your bitching. You're leading on LSE. What's more to extract ?
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