Rage and Enneagram Type 6

[April]

If you can't trust your own conclusions, how can you ever put complete faith in someone else's? It's like they turn the concept of epistemic certainty on its head.

Oohh. You just gave me a great light bulb moment, jxrtes. Thanks.

[anndelise]

I don't think I'll ever fully understand the 6 thought process (from what I've read about them needing to look up to authority). If you can't trust your own conclusions, how can you ever put complete faith in someone else's? It's like they turn the concept of epistemic certainty on its head.

Don't get me wrong, I love you guys and find you interesting, but also slightly exotic (in a good way).

fwiw, most 6 descriptions that go into looking up to authority are the ones that had thrown me off. it's like...uh, no.

But, if I don't have experience in an area, and you claim to, and I trust you, then I might initially accept what you say. But if it turns out that you were giving me wrong info, the trust is broken for that kind of info.

[April]

For me, it's not about looking up to authority, but I like the security of having support from friends and family. If somebody thinks I'm doing something silly/stupid/etc., I can doubt myself too easily.

[Creepy-male]

To the 6 it isn't blind trust, but well thought out trust, which has been considered thoughtfully.

Also 6's which lean 5 are different than 6's which lean 7, and 6's with different tritypes act differently.

6's which lean 7 ==> A little more relaxed, enjoyment seeking, but still retains trust issues. Not as apparent due to enjoyment seeking. A little more mellow and less serious on the surface. Friend/Buddy like loyalty.

6's which lean 5 ==> A little more academic and stiff, stimulated by interesting idea but not too eccentric. A little more serious and concentrated, but still more social than 5w6. Loyalty to school's of thought.

It's a gradient though imho, a wing isn't like an on off switch.

Also certain types of tritype combination in combination with other triads... can produce some interesting combos.... a 6-1-2 for example is all super-ego dominated triad (I forgot the name of this triad), but they are especially well controlled, mannered, obedient, etc.... While a 6-8-4 (all intensity triad) is a paranoid mother fucker likely to snare at established institutions especially a 6-8-4 which has had first hand bad experiences with an institution, like say the government.

[Creepy-male]

I just wanted to toss in an idea for you two....

I don't think "loyalty" is the right term as much as "predictability".
"Predictability" also covers the need to find some stability.

When filled with anxiety, seeing conflicts and contradictions..absurdities as it was put, and the tendencies towards phobias, panic attacks, defensiveness/protection, it usually means that the environment is or was unpredictable.

For example, HLD said
"they require something to believe in"
Requiring something we can trust. We trust what we can predict. If I expect that a person or idea will [do whatever], and it does it, then I can trust that it will [do that]. I may not like it, but it's at least something 'solid' from which to build a world view with.

"their psyche demands this philosophy so much that they won't sell out their ideologies for more physical things, because their ideas are important to them, they aren't just something for trade to fulfill their desires."
If I trust something, if it acts certain ways enough that I can expect it to continue to act in those certain ways,...in other words, if it's fairly predictable, then I'm not likely to sell that out or let it go easily...except for something that has even more useful predictableness. Of course, this leads to a sense of loyalty, but, as was said, "not loyal like a dog or a soldier". If at any point the something is no longer predictable, if it changes, if it becomes (or is) uncertain, then that 'loyalty' falls away.

(note, some unpredictable things are accepted as being predictably unpredictable. The anxiety issues step in, though, when sometimes its predictable, and sometimes not,...sometimes you can be certain and trust it to do what it does...but sometimes it doesn't. This creates anxiety. It will also likely engender a need to find out why, what's going on that makes it change like that?)

Anyhoot, just an idea to throw in for consideration.

Basically your talking about dependability... loyalty of the 6 is derived from their thoughts on the dependability of said thing to be loyal to.

Like I was saying, loyalty can be twisted easy... people think of it patronizing like a dog or a soldier with no free will that follows commands like a programmed machine for the "man", the institution, or the government (I tend to cause it makes me feel like 5>6, but I'll have to get over myself for typing out useful descriptions).... like they have no dignity and freedom.... but that's not at all the correct sense of the "6" loyalty. There is a lot of room for subjectivity in what the 6 trusts in... not all 6's are religious zealots... some are.... and the ones that are do so for psychological health... to reduce anxiety.... where as a religious zealot who is a 1 is different.... 1-6 and 6-1 tritypes will share a combination of both of these qualities.... but the leading type will be obvious by which element is stronger.

[Airman]

Great avatar, HaveLucidDreamz. You look great.

[Creepy-male]

Great avatar, HaveLucidDreamz. You look great.

haha yea I'm nipping lol

[xerx]

What you just said there, I think hits more squarely on the 6 fixation. They readily trust neither themselves nor sources outside of themselves. Any kind of easy certainty is difficult to come by.

There's more to this, but I need to think of how to word it.

For me, it's not about looking up to authority, but I like the security of having support from friends and family. If somebody thinks I'm doing something silly/stupid/etc., I can doubt myself too easily.

fwiw, most 6 descriptions that go into looking up to authority are the ones that had thrown me off. it's like...uh, no.

But, if I don't have experience in an area, and you claim to, and I trust you, then I might initially accept what you say. But if it turns out that you were giving me wrong info, the trust is broken for that kind of info.

Ah! I see. So it's more about issues of "what should I trust" in general than about putting all your faith in someone else. Yeah I think that makes more sense.

[Creepy-male]

Ah! I see. So it's more about issues of "what should I trust" in general than about putting all your faith in someone else. Yeah I think that makes more sense.

yea where as the 5 trusts in their internal sense of reason, and their question is "what makes sense".... the 6 is "what makes sense to trust".

6's are far less eccentric than 5's because of this... 5's develop all kinds of visionary and sometimes crazy/eccentric ideas. Both types have the capacity to be extremely intelligent but the 5 comes up with crazier ideas because they are more iconoclastic, esoteric, eccentric, enigmatic, and so forth. Sometimes the 5's ideas are just crazy, sometimes they are brilliant and visionary. Sometimes the 6's ideas are blind faith, sometimes they are smarter than the average guy with their loyalty and skepticism.

Howard Hughes is a 5 for his eccentric nature, John Nash (Beautiful Mind guy) is a 5, Einstein was a 5, Van Gough with all his weirdness was a 5, Tim Burton is a 5. Usually the 5w4 are artistic in nature or have an artistic bent where as 5w6 are more academic and dryer, but less iconoclastic.

[Airman]

Can you analyse my tritype and give me some characteristics of it? It´s 1-3-6 I guess. I´m a 1w9sx/so.

I think the basic 1 anger thing and overcriticism is quite apparent and dominating. There´s also some vanity and self-centeredness linked with 3, somewhat narcissistic. 6 makes me somewhat not trusting and careful with my moves, and also loyal to the end to the people I think deserve it. Somewhat prone to worrying too much about my health and the health of others and ready to kill to defend myself and others I deem worthy.

[Satan]

[Absurd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0]YouTube - angry german kid

Even though I know what you're doing, it is pretty good.

[Titaniumssledgehammer]

Type 6 has in average a high neuroticism, thus he is exposed to negative emotions, in particular anger.

[Airman]

6s don´t trust easily, one of their main problems is that they doubt a lot.

I even think I can be an E6 because I doubt a lot.

It´s about seeing all possibilities, so much possibilities in a situation, that it becomes something paranoid. The person could be nice to you just because he/she is a nice person, but also for so many other reasons. Sixes really don´t trust people easily, they don´t seem to trust and this results in a basic lack of trust even in themselves, it´s like so much doubt. Too much doubt. This is why they look for something to hang onto to stabilize themselves. Because they´re the greatest doubters of the Enneagram. They doubt so much that life becomes inviable unless there is at least SOMETHING they can trust, an ideology, a philosophy, a guide, a system, a group. Only then they feel somewhat more relaxed, at least part of the uncertainty which they sense is replaced by a certainty.

AH I re-read the previous posts the intensity triad you mentioned is 4-6-8 ...

well I´m not very sure whether I´m a 1-4-6 or a 6-4-1 .

what I know is, I´m definitely not sexual subtype, I was wrong, I´m sp/sx .

[blankblank]

It´s about seeing all possibilities, so much possibilities in a situation, that it becomes something paranoid. The person could be nice to you just because he/she is a nice person, but also for so many other reasons. Sixes really don´t trust people easily, they don´t seem to trust and this results in a basic lack of trust even in themselves, it´s like so much doubt. Too much doubt. This is why they look for something to hang onto to stabilize themselves. Because they´re the greatest doubters of the Enneagram. They doubt so much that life becomes inviable unless there is at least SOMETHING they can trust, an ideology, a philosophy, a guide, a system, a group. Only then they feel somewhat more relaxed, at least part of the uncertainty which they sense is replaced by a certainty.

Good description of a type 6!

[Lobo]

I know we did a thread on rage/anger but I was wondering if anyone else sees a correlation between someone being an E-6 and perhaps more prone to angry outbursts or even serious rage.

lend me your thoughts.

A lot of the things mentioned in this thread resonate with me. However, I'm considered to be a gentle person and laid back. While I have experienced periods of anger, I've never really shown serious rage, or at least I don't consider it anything outside of "normal." Whenever I feel like I'm charging up in anger I try to release it by lifting weights/running. Otherwise, yeah, it's like a ticking time bomb.

[Galen]

6s don´t trust easily, one of their main problems is that they doubt a lot.

I even think I can be an E6 because I doubt a lot.

It´s about seeing all possibilities, so much possibilities in a situation, that it becomes something paranoid. The person could be nice to you just because he/she is a nice person, but also for so many other reasons. Sixes really don´t trust people easily, they don´t seem to trust and this results in a basic lack of trust even in themselves, it´s like so much doubt. Too much doubt. This is why they look for something to hang onto to stabilize themselves. Because they´re the greatest doubters of the Enneagram. They doubt so much that life becomes inviable unless there is at least SOMETHING they can trust, an ideology, a philosophy, a guide, a system, a group. Only then they feel somewhat more relaxed, at least part of the uncertainty which they sense is replaced by a certainty.

Don't forget that the best thing an E6 can do is develop a sense of trust in themselves, that at their peaks they themselves are the people they depend on and trust the most.

[Azeroffs]

A lot of the things mentioned in this thread resonate with me. However, I'm considered to be a gentle person and laid back. While I have experienced periods of anger, I've never really shown serious rage, or at least I don't consider it anything outside of "normal." Whenever I feel like I'm charging up in anger I try to release it by lifting weights/running. Otherwise, yeah, it's like a ticking time bomb.

How a person deals with anger is dependent on their gut-type. Lucid explained it really well here.

Now with the e-6... there rage comes from anxiety and trust issues. These issues of anxiety and trust can cause them to be put into a state of panic, at which point its possible for instinct to take over when their mental clarity becomes shattered...

Now e6 with 8 is likely to get more active under panic... frantic and focus on doing something... fidgity, nervous, upset... pace angrily... break something... drive fast... work out at the gym... run.... work hard. To an outside observer they appear like a nervous ball of energy that on contact will explode.

Now e6 with 1 is more likely to get more rigid under panic... get obsessive and unload on those who disturb order/rules.... become high maintenance and type A. To an outside observer they appear nervous, stiff, and to have a rigid obsessive nature.

Now e6 with 9 is more likely to get a little dazed or down under panic... they get calmer and more subdued... sometimes passive aggressive... they may act calm on the surface under panic but then unload their nerves on something... or they may act calm on the surface then find a good friend to unload all their grievances to.

[Lobo]

How a person deals with anger is dependent on their gut-type. Lucid explained it really well here.

Hmm, I guess I'd be something between the e6-8 and e6-1.