Se vs Si

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Se vs. Si:

Se: Sudden, Worse Tempo, Strong, Pure, Simple, Clear, Rhythm, Stand Out, Higher highs/Lower lows

Si: Smooth, Better Tempo, Balanced, Varied, Complex, Colorful, Harmony, Blend In, Regular attunement

Se can be characterized by a raw separation of phenomenon, devoid of its relationship with all other materials, except what it seeks to be paired with romantically (Ni dual-seeking). This phenomenon, while it can be objectively observed in a quite complex environment, is quite elemental in actuality.

Si, in contrast, seeks a greater harmony with its relationship to its environment and so it blends itself in with every function, and every other facet of reality. (and scientifically there is probably no way really to separate any material form from its functional counterpart)

This is why, INFp and ESTp types are more likely to be ‘romantics’ and find that one special thing that is cut aside from the world… in a pure form idealistically, whereas types like ENTp and ISFp need a better base in the ‘real world.’ This sense of romance doesn’t even have to be another person really, but it just shows how technically ‘separate’ and ‘removed’ Se/Ni is, compared to Si/Ne. It’s in everything the Se/Ni valuer does.

What is strange about INFp/ESTps to other people, is how well you have to treat them emotionally compared to other people, just so they will do what other types perceive as basic things in life; those sort of things that they think make everybody feel connected. As long as they feel that they found what they were looking for idealistically, they really have no issues doing the ‘real world’ things that people want them to do, but if this is somehow not being received well, they will just go off to the side and create their own way until they are better listened to. But if you do understand this, then you can manipulate the Se/Ni valuer to do what you want even if you are not a Se/Ni valuer – and very intelligent narcissists and people high up in society already know this anyway, of course.

[Airman]

I´m a narcissist, you called me one, so if I´m very intelligent I know this already lol. And yes I think I get what you mean.

But anyway I see that Si relates to comfort and such things as physical touching, hugging, etc, in a pure sensory form, are Si, while they may also be Fi.

So I think what you call romantism must be understood in this light. To me the greater romantics are the ones who sleep holding their dear in their arms and wake up and just look at them and smell their necks and feel their skin and kiss their necks and reassuringly - sometimes to the point of being inconvenient - embrace the partner even closer tightly to his/her own naked body or half naked, feeling the skin contact as something very pleasurable and viewing the physical embrace as protecting and loving. I think this probably has to do with Caregiver behaviour anyway.

[Beautiful sky]

I´m a narcissist, you called me one, so if I´m very intelligent I know this already lol. And yes I think I get what you mean.

But anyway I see that Si relates to comfort and such things as physical touching, hugging, etc, in a pure sensory form, are Si, while they may also be Fi.
So I think what you call romantism must be understood in this light. To me the greater romantics are the ones who sleep holding their dear in their arms and wake up and just look at them and smell their necks and feel their skin and kiss their necks and reassuringly - sometimes to the point of being inconvenient - embrace the partner even closer tightly to his/her own naked body or half naked, feeling the skin contact as something very pleasurable and viewing the physical embrace as protecting and loving. I think this probably has to do with Caregiver behaviour anyway.

OH YES

I get really bad head aches and depressed when I don't get enough Si. I snuggle against people in expectation of them to rub cheeks with me. Squirl kisses, or just little touches throughout the day is really nice. ....ummm

I can be a kitten that way, meow.

[Mediator Kam]

lol squirrel kisses.

[Creepy-male]

This is why, INFp and ESTp types are more likely to be ‘romantics’ and find that one special thing that is cut aside from the world… in a pure form idealistically, whereas types like ENTp and ISFp need a better base in the ‘real world.’ This sense of romance doesn’t even have to be another person really, but it just shows how technically ‘separate’ and ‘removed’ Se/Ni is, compared to Si/Ne. It’s in everything the Se/Ni valuer does.

What is strange about INFp/ESTps to other people, is how well you have to treat them emotionally compared to other people, just so they will do what other types perceive as basic things in life; those sort of things that they think make everybody feel connected. As long as they feel that they found what they were looking for idealistically, they really have no issues doing the ‘real world’ things that people want them to do, but if this is somehow not being received well, they will just go off to the side and create their own way until they are better listened to. But if you do understand this, then you can manipulate the Se/Ni valuer to do what you want even if you are not a Se/Ni valuer – and very intelligent narcissists and people high up in society already know this anyway, of course.

No offense but hear I think your describe the INFp... the ESTp is seeking after this unconsciously but doesn't produce/generate/have it. They want to get that from INFps.

Se isn't so detached and romantic... its very objective and realistic. But it's not like scientifically objective with a lot of formal logic and what not, its the sort of "It is what it is" thing. Se people see reality just exactly like it is right here and now... that ball is red... they don't care if it could be blue... its red and that's how it is. That's , its very matter of fact.

Se-leading types are probably the most keenly aware of reality as it is now. The ESTp has creative Ti, which usually means they are the type to be aware of reality and they know how to work with systems. This mentally complements the INFp because they have a Ti-HA, and the ESTp can help them work the system to accomplish their goals.

Lets look at the ESTp and INFp...

INFp...
+ Ego -- The Ni enables them to see the big picture, see how the dominoes fall into place, see the big picture... since they are creative Fe... usually these "dominoes" which fall into place are Fe info. They look at all the outward emotional expressions of things and people and see how this all fits together. This is what makes them romantic, compassionate, etc.... They have a global portrait of their feelings and the feelings of other people at large. The problem is, such a global feeling viewpoint gives them little time to consider more sensory and logical information. In particular they have strong desires and know what it is they want because they have a global viewpoint, but they are unable to do the required things to accomplish this. INFps will find themselves thinking, if only the system was setup differently, I would be able to accomplish my goals. They are therefore very resentful towards logical systems in a way and have a hidden agenda to influence these system in order to achieve their goals through Se... however the INFp is not likely to actually involve themselves with this, they are likely to go back to there dreamy romantic emo state of Ni with creative Fe.

ESTp....
+ -- The Se enables them to be quickly aware of what is happening as it is. Usually this observation is supplied by a creative function, in the ESTp that is Ti. So to them they are very aware of how logical systems affect external reality. The system itself is of little importance, the result of what its consequences are is. Generally enough observation into this gives them an awareness of how to work the system to accomplish their goals. It gives them an awareness of what is required to fulfill out an agenda. They are very skilled at this and can effectively "work" whatever logical system to accomplish their agenda. Even people... once they understand you as a logical system they can effectively operate with you socially. The problem with the ESTp is all of this awareness on logic and reality leaves them feeling lost and without anything really meaningful in there life. Sometimes they lack enthusiasm or feeling in what they are doing and therefore feel they must force or create feeling or enthusiasm in an environment... this being their Fe hidden agenda.

The INFp + ESTp fit together so well because the ESTp helps the INFp accomplish things, and the INFp gives the ESTp the feeling like there is something meaningful. The relationship combines a very realistic cynical ST who is skilled at working the system with a very romantic idealistic NF who is emotionally aware at the global level. In return the NF gets their agenda accomplished and the ST gets some semblance of meaning.

ENTps and ISFp have a totally different thing going on... Its very similar because the hidden agendas are the same... but they are concerned with and ... Ne is about possibilities and uniqueness and Si about comfort, internal body sense, and sensation. This is what gives there relationship that alpha feel... because its quirky in an Ne way and comfortable in a Si way. The Ni/Se is more about the global picture and decisive action... Ne/Si is more laid back and childlike.

In RPG terms...

INFp = spellcaster with a more mystical/dreamy quality ( dominant, distant dreamy detached, sees things like a massive web/weave and works that weave)
ENTp = spellcaster with a more cocky/roguish/witty/exploitive quality ( dominant, unique quirky odd, twists possibilities/potentials to be exploitive)
ESTp = warrior/rogue with a decisive/smart/cocky hans soloish quality ( dominant... etc etc)
ISFp = healer/druid/civilian with a comfortable/open/calm quality ( dominant... etc etc)

[Airman]

interesting Lobo. I wonder how would that transpose to the other Beta duals, ISTJ and ENFJ.

[Creepy-male]

interesting Lobo. I wonder how would that transpose to the other Beta duals, ISTJ and ENFJ.

Lol this isn't lobo, its luciddreamz... its confusing for spanish speaking people.

It's very much the same two functions the biggest difference is they are both rational rather than irrational. The ENFj's hidden agenda is to have a realistic impact (Se), while the ISTj's hidden agenda is to have an influence on peoples concept of the global picture and their internal beliefs (Ni). The ENFj's Fe is fueled by this larger picture (Ni) and the ISTj's systematic logical nature is fueled by decisive realistic impact (Se), so they both get the dual seeking element and fulfill each other's hidden agenda.

It's really the same themes as beta irrationals... the thing is the beta rationals have a focus on different things and this slightly modifies their outward characteristics and needs.

INFp = dreamy, melancholic, pensive, contemplative, romantic
ENFj = enthusiastic, expressive, influential, charming, charismatic
Beta NF -- Combines Outward Emotional Expression with a Global Interconnected Viewpoint

ESTp = decisive, directive, realist, assertive
ISTj = systematic, practical, procedural, matter of fact
Beta ST -- Combines Systematic Logic with a Matter of Fact Realist Decisive Approach




Beta Quadra Characteristics
-----------------------------
emotionality (outwardly clearly visible expression of emotions)
thought processes (systematic logical constructs)
in action (decisive and to the point)
influenced beliefs (see how individual elements connect together to form a global picture)



Beta Quadra Perspective
-----------------------------
Responds to emotionally (notices outwardly visible signs of emotions)
Responds to logically (pays attention to logical systems)
Responds to in reality (pays attention to the surface aspects of reality)
Respond to in contemplation/imagination (pays attention to the cascade of consequences created by a single action)

[Blaze]

somebody posted something awhile ago about internal and external, with a diagram. it was really good. anyway what that diagram left me with was a clearer understanding of how SLE/IEI vs SEI/ILE operate.

SLE: totally externally oriented. kind of a void in his inner life.
IEI: totally internally oriented. kind of a void in his external life.

this is why they need each other. they are extreme people who need another extreme person to balance them out.

SEI: balanced between internal and external.
ILE: balanced between internal and external.

they each need another balanced person so they don't get out of balance.

ok so when i think of my relationship with infpman, it's a little bit out of balance in favor of internal, since i am half internal and he is 100% internal. i get frustrated because i want to seek adventures in the real world and he needs that special Se to bring him out of the space time continuum. he gets frustrated because my Se isn't strong or nuanced enough. i get frustrated because he doesn't notice when i'm out of balance...i have to make a huge display, then he picks up on it tries to do things that will make it better. but i have to say he doesn't have it and it's not enough.

so we talk about these things....and try to help each other....and try to find help in other ways. it's a good thing we have the language even if we don't have the skill to do it.

[Airman]

Lol this isn't lobo, its luciddreamz... its confusing for spanish speaking people.

No, Lobo used to use the avatar of a wolf, this is what confused me. I don´t speak spanish as a mother tongue, I speak portuguese, which is very much unlike spanish. People who speak portuguese don´t understand spanish speaking people and vice versa, mainly because the languages separated and became more different over time, though they have a common origin, much like dutch and german, if you take dutch to be portuguese and german to be spanish, you have a fairly accurate comparison. Anyway,

It's very much the same two functions the biggest difference is they are both rational rather than irrational. The ENFj's hidden agenda is to have a realistic impact (Se), while the ISTj's hidden agenda is to have an influence on peoples concept of the global picture and their internal beliefs (Ni). The ENFj's Fe is fueled by this larger picture (Ni) and the ISTj's systematic logical nature is fueled by decisive realistic impact (Se), so they both get the dual seeking element and fulfill each other's hidden agenda.

Aren´t these HAs debatable? Se-HA is very clear to me in INFPs, they want to have an impact, realistic, sure, powerful, some sort of power. 'To have powerful impact on others' is how I would translate this HA from the INFPs I know. This is why they like so much shit like Psychoanalysis. They can spend their whole day 'impacting' their clients with their 'insights' which are seldom something good for the patient, as they tend to have a very sadistic vein and love to convince others that others have loads of problems which they don´t see, but the INFP sees and they better take care of these huge problems [inflict fear/psychological pain/sadism]. I know a young INFP who´s better than my aunt but still, she´s studying Psychology and has this same attitude of envy, because she´s envious of others, and thinks she´s pure shite, she has to point out to everyone their 'psychological problems'.

Ni-HA has been equalled to 'believing', 'seeing a great purpose and meaning in life', 'spirituality' as far as I know. Not INFLUENCING OTHERS IN THEIR OWN BELIEFS... Where did you get this HA from, can you elaborate further on this?

Beta Quadra Perspective
-----------------------------
Responds to emotionally (notices outwardly visible signs of emotions)
Responds to logically (pays attention to logical systems)
Responds to in reality (pays attention to the surface aspects of reality)
Respond to in contemplation/imagination (pays attention to the cascade of consequences created by a single action)

this chart is interesting.

[redbaron]

Aren´t these HAs debatable? Se-HA is very clear to me in INFPs, they want to have an impact, realistic, sure, powerful, some sort of power. 'To have powerful impact on others' is how I would translate this HA from the INFPs I know.

YES. I didn't even realize this about myself until I actually had a big impact on someone and I felt this strange sort of completion. Like this was the purpose of my life. Even though the impact I had on this other person, didn't mean anything for me externally. Still, knowing that I was the cause was profound.

[redbaron]

Se isn't so detached and romantic... its very objective and realistic. But it's not like scientifically objective with a lot of formal logic and what not, its the sort of "It is what it is" thing. Se people see reality just exactly like it is right here and now... that ball is red... they don't care if it could be blue... its red and that's how it is. That's , its very matter of fact.

all of what you wrote was very good, but I especially agree with this stuff about Se.^^

[Creepy-male]

Lucid's post makes me hate it when egos try to talk about at length. Because they know jack shit about what it's Really Like.

lol god, this is such a dumb viewpoint. You don't have to be strong or value a function to know what it is. Not everything has to be understood by personal experience... do psychologists need to be mentally deficient to understand mental disorders?

They should go read my Charles Bukowski thread or something if they want to know. Or go read what any number of other egos actually say and speak about. Instead of mentally masturbating down their own throats for intellectual sustenance like they always do.

"isn't detached and romantic" my ass. egos can be plenty idealistic and visionary. Ideas tend to matter to them a lot. You guys seriously have no clue lol.

The problem is, if there is no intellectual sustenance... then how can you be certain that you've typed the person correctly as ego? I mean what is the measuring stick or standard you use to determine if something in reality is if you don't have an intellectual understanding... people don't have Se attached to their forehead, that is unless you spend too much time on socionics forums, then they really do have functions associated with them and you don't have to understand a thing. You just have to look up what "experts" tell you and then observe their characteristics, and you have essentially bullshit.

Go back to economics and politics, where you can play the "theory is for mathematicians, this is the real world" card and everyone will really be impressed.

That stereotype is seen from outside. If you check how the Se-ego really thinks and feels, it is different. Se takes in both external and internal reality mainly through Se. It doesn't mean he can't be spiritual or have an internal life. Se isn't about seeing or hearing physical objects, like red balls. It's about understanding "socionics objects". An idea, a thought, a feeling, a spiritual experience - all these things are objects, too, in a Socionics sense. So while Ne-people understand what these experiences can be transformed into, Se-people understand the experience itself. I would say Se-people more than anyone can experience things in their true form. It means you could easily argue that Se-egos are MORE spiritual than most. But that wouldn't be accepted by people here, seeing Se-egos as these stupid bulls just moving around to manipulate people to please themselves.

Lol um of course its seen from the outside... how can you really know what an Se-ego thinks and feels and be certain? Besides measuring it from outside observation.

Second the red ball thing your taking too seriously.. my illustrative point is Se-egos see the outward objective characteristics of reality. Like a ball being red... thats OBJECTIVE information that is clearly viewed from outside. The ball being soft... thats SUBJECTIVE information that is clearly viewed from ones internal sensations. Someone may think the ball isn't soft, but no one can disagree that the ball isn't red.

Also stop whining that people here won't accept Se-ego are highly spiritual. I've heard no one argue against this idea, and if that's your axe to grind with my post, then your completely off mark.

Lol I think claiming Se people to experience things in true form is a bit of a lofty claim. I don't think any type experiences things in a truer or more false form. They are merely different perspectives. All irrational functions are focused on observation without judgment weighed via thinking feeling... who is to say one observation is "truer" than another.... your post clearly shows bias to an agenda and not adherence to strict scientific objectivity. Personally I don't want your agenda of telling others how awesome and spiritual and divinely truth seeing ESTp's are in comparison of other types to interfere with a clear objective understanding.

Your being defensive against me apparently claiming ESTp are stupid manipulative bulls.... which isn't my doing, your taking what little information I posted and twisting it into something negative and then reacting against that defensively.

[Creepy-male]

You can let a Se-ego write the description.

How can your typing have any credibility if you don't know what an Se-ego looks like from the outside? Otherwise its like using the word in the definition.

So you say only Se-egos can see a ball is red? Damn. I feel sorry for intuitives.

Because that's what I literally said... I mean I remember saying an Se-ego sees the ball as red. I don't remember saying an Se-ego only sees the ball as red. Take a second to let that swirl around in your head and really take it in.

It's why Se-egos can win any discussion, or fool anyone. They pick up on EVERYTHING you say and do, and have total "control" of the here and now. It's a complex function, not some simple "this is a red ball"-thing.

Lol and once again more with the grandiose claims. I'm starting to think you've type yourself as an ESTp to feel better about yourself by attribute grandiose self-aggrandizing claims to yourself based on weak objective reasoning and not to really understand yourself as you are.

I didn't talk about you. I never found you stupid. Quite the opposite. However, a lot of the things others here write about Se is so off the mark I totally get why nobody self-types sensors.

This is more likely attributed to miscommunication between parties than it is a failure in understanding. Its the whole "its not what you know, its what you can show" thing. Right now, obviously your failure in interpreting my dialogue is apparent and therefore I'm not showing what I know effectively enough.

The lesson for you however, is that you shouldn't make assumptions about what others know purely from their dialogue, especially when you seem to not do it proper justice. Which is essentially what you did.... talk about me. And why this is now become what it has. Stop panning for the moral high ground, and lets clear up our disagreement as equals on the same plane.

I meant that they experience it directly. If you scream at a Se-ego, they feel physical pain. It is why they can react with violence.

K ummm.... let me try what you did to me above.....

lets see....

um..... *clears throat*

So you say only Se-egos react with violence to people screaming at them? Damn. I feel sorry for intuitives.

... see its not hard to straw-man argument your opponent...

but I have to be sure to now make grandiose claims about my ability to "win" discussions. Lol. win discussions... hahahahh

I agree.

No you don't, your posts are checkered with bias. If you do agree it doesn't show.

And your post showed poor understanding.

and

I didn't talk about you.

Sure you didn't talk about me... I guess by my post you meant undescript entity number 2523626. Right....... you didn't talk about me one bit.... we are just idly chit chatting about random stuff and in now way are you trying to criticize my post.... that's not happening at all.... *waves arm like jedi mind trick*

[Creepy-male]

You are defensive for no reason. I never attacked you. I tried to explain something about sensing that I think this community doesn't understand. If you already know what I write, then let others read it and understand too. If it was for you alone, I would have written it in a PM.

*rolls eyes*... you are soo clueless its funny....

In effect you are essentially saying "hey community, don't listen to this guys post, he is wrong.... this stuff here... its correct"

This is a problem... if you were really as pure and virtuous and innocent as you try to frame yourself as being... you would have simply posted your explanation without reference to mine, and your actions would line up perfectly with your assumed motive.

I understand of course, though you do not wish to take our discussion further... which is of course a reasonable course of action, but don't try to posture yourself like the innocent lamb here, if you criticized my post, I have the right to intellectually defend it... I'm not the aggressor here... I'm just defending my post. If you would have left me alone, I wouldn't have engaged you in dialogue. Now please leave this discussion and don't return until your ready to continue this dialogue. (by discussion I don't mean this thread, obviously you can continue to post in the forum... but don't bother me unless you wish to continue)

[Creepy-male]

It's not a dumb viewpoint at all. Think of trying to describe a blue sky to someone who's never been aboveground and seen the sun. No matter how many words you use or how precisely you use them, you'll never be able to convey what its really like to actually see it. Abstract depictions are always a synthetic understanding; they can never substitute for the real understanding one can only get from direct, firsthand experience.

With schizophrenia, you're conflating diagnosis with understanding. You can spot the symptoms of something without having to understand much about it. This is what psychiatrists/psychologists are trained in. They don't have to know the experiential reality of what schizophrenia is like to carry out their profession (though the good ones will try and attain, as much as is possible, an understanding of that experience nevertheless).

Similarly, when it comes to types and info-elements—one can spot their symptoms from an external view and accurately identify them. But don't dare think you know what goes on in their heads, what their motives are, or how they experience reality. You don't and you never will for the most part. All you have are a few external cues allowing you to type them. Its only a limited surface view of that person, that's quite it.

Yea its not a dumb viewpoint, but the I could do without the attacks, or possibly what I had perceived as such. Maybe you simply were saying that my writings on Se are less interesting than reading a post from an ESTp talking about personal experience.

When I first got into Socionics, I read the intellectual descriptions. Then over time, I took the abstract understandings I'd acquired and collided them real-world experience. I observed other people, I talked to them, I interacted with them. I learned what fit, what didn't fit, and what was wholly incomplete in said descriptions. After awhile, the intellectual understandings became no longer necessary and a better, visceral understanding crystallized in their place. There's nothing deep or mysterious about this process, I'm sure you're familiar with it.

Lol pretty much... but I'm still pre-occupied with the intellectual understanding.

I don't agree with regurgitating from "experts" either. But regurgitating one's own "logical derivations" is no different to me. It's essentially the same calibre of mistake.

I only do that because it's like the foldable cup.... instead of me having to remember a bunch of little peices of information, I can just keep a small peice of information in mind and then expand it out later.

It is for mathematicians—actually no, I take that back. Because econometricians are an insult to mathematicians. Most real mathematicians will flat out tell you that applying mathematics to economics is utter bullshit. Logic is an arbitrary system of rules for deciding what's true vs. false. There are of course times you can make some reliable, useful approximations with it—i.e., in the hard sciences, which deal with characteristically simpler kinds of phenomena. But trying to force-fit the complexities of real-world economic activity into the facile, theoretical parameters of the closed-systems that econometricians play with, is an epic exercise in naivete and futility. Unfortunately for us, when it comes to matters of economics, these vaunted little math games they play at central banks and government policy centers, are costing the livelihoods of every person on the planet.

Well personally I'm not saying mathematicians are better or that mathematicians are the kings of economics, and there ideas produce better judgments on the issues than econometricians.

I was just saying that there can be more than one way to think about an issue. Most of my posts on socionics are likely to be very much like what you observed... especially in general discussion. If this doesn't interest you then that's fine, but I also want to make sure if I get criticized I can at least learn the way in which what I wrote was a false representation/model of reality.

How in the fuck would they really know that when there's such a dearth of egos here in the 1st place? Some of you people have downright dehumanizing views of other types, on account of the grossly oversimplified understandings you carry around in your skulls about them.

meh, I don't think I have a dehumanizing viewpoint. But I'd be interested in hearing if you think I do, because honestly I'm not trying to dehumanize ESTps and INFps... I have a very specific set of characters I've seen that I was thinking about when I wrote that. I was merely attempting to explain the nature of the interaction between ESTps and INFps as the ESTp is a realist who has unfilled idealism, and the INFp is an idealist who is unfilled in reality. When they fit together it means each of them fulfill each others unfulfilled part by merely being as they are. I don't feel like that's dehumanizing... actually I feel rather positive about that. I REALLY don't understand how merely making such an observation could have really disgusted you so heavily, how it relates to me being an ego.

I agree with you 100% on this. Finally, something lol.

Yea.... finally.

Lol, interfering with a clear, objective understanding… ? Are you fucking joking? Statements like that just sound like a parody to me in the context of everything else you've been going on about this in thread haha.

possibly... I always run into problems whenever I use the word objective/subjective in a post.

I'm just saying, what I'm interested in is the theoretical principles which can be used to create a complete portrait of the ESTp.... I'm less interested in people's personal opinions/experiences/and so forth about ESTps.

Facts and Opinions... lets try these words instead of Objective/Subjective.....

I am interested in the facts concerning ESTps rather than peoples opinions concerning ESTps... at least in this context.

[Creepy-male]

Too lazy to quote all your things, but basically I agree, a little more effort could be taken to be more realistic with the way people (including myself) type on here. I didn't even realize how ridiculous saying EJ's break actions down etc sounded in that one post. I still feel like it wasn't completely off base but it was kind of an oversimplistic model of what its like to be an EJ, surely no EJ would identify with that description.

Although you'd have to admit algorithmic thinking does enable EJ's to somehow seemingly effortlessly take discrete facts and weave them together. I'd argue that this is actually the EJ's biggest strength in terms of how they think, the problem however is it leaves them vulnerable to certain tactics. Any unique attribute a person has that is a strength also has a complimentary weakness and its understanding this that allows people to be effective. If you understand this better than your opponent, then you have a tactical/strategic advantage over them. That's all I was saying with the sports thing -- I found it ridiculous that type can determine who wins and looses a game before it is played. Now on the surface, saying something as ridiculous as breaking actions down etc sounded ridiculous I agree, and I should probably be a bit more effective about the manner in which I communicate my ideas.

[redbaron]

yes there is more to Se than the stereotype. But stereotypes exist for a reason. And I know a few SLEs who fit that bill. There are other factors that affect how they come across: gender, culture, IQ, education, etc. My SLE sister-in-law is extremely sophisticated plus she's been dualized for 20 years now and she's almost a pure mix between IEI and SLE. It's amazing.

[redbaron]

That stereotype is seen from outside. If you check how the Se-ego really thinks and feels, it is different. Se takes in both external and internal reality mainly through Se. It doesn't mean he can't be spiritual or have an internal life. Se isn't about seeing or hearing physical objects, like red balls. It's about understanding "socionics objects". An idea, a thought, a feeling, a spiritual experience - all these things are objects, too, in a Socionics sense. So while Ne-people understand what these experiences can be transformed into, Se-people understand the experience itself. I would say Se-people more than anyone can experience things in their true form. It means you could easily argue that Se-egos are MORE spiritual than most. But that wouldn't be accepted by people here, seeing Se-egos as these stupid bulls just moving around to manipulate people to please themselves.

yeah that makes sense. And that's why Se-egos are refreshing to IEIs because they don't worry about what something may become or where it's going or what the implications are. It's like they can appreciate things for what they are right now. I have been surprised by their romanticism, but it doesn't come across that way. They remember events, significant places, exchanges, etc and those things hold meaning for them. But they aren't "romantic" in the head-in-the-clouds sense of the word.

[Blaze]

HLD: in other words:

SLE: totally externally oriented. kind of a void in his inner life.
IEI: totally internally oriented. kind of a void in his external life.

this is why they need each other. they are extreme people who need another extreme person to balance them out.

[redbaron]

I NEED AN EXTREME PERSON TO BALANCE ME OUT.

[Creepy-male]

HLD: in other words:

No they aren't extreme.... they merely have a preferred "vantage point" or perspective on life.

In the same way if a person went to a resteraunt and ordered a cheeseburger because they preferred that over a salad, you wouldn't say that this person is a cheeseburger fanatic and there entire life is centered around eating a cheeseburger... there is obviously more complexity to there life than the cheeseburger and that goes without saying... it is merely a preference they have. Se-egos merely prefer to have their conscious focus placed on external reality. It is not so much that there is a void in the internal reality, but it's something they don't focus on... while as for the Ni-ego it becomes the central focus.

[Blaze]

ILE: kind of void in her head.

no....the void is not in the head, it's in the body. :wink:

[Creepy-male]

So answer the parts of my post where I describe Se, instead of arguing. You may understand everything I wrote, but I don't think most people here do. If they did, we'd possibly have better discussions, so why not help promote Se instead of fighting? I know you love Se, lol.

Sure.... I agree, essentially Se is about seeing the experience for what it is... this to me has always seemed to be the mentality of the "realist". They see the experience for what it is... good or bad.... they are highly receptive to this type of information. This is the "glasses" they wear to view reality. It's there perspective. Not to say, other types don't see reality or are unaware of there experience... they are but it gets lost in translation somehow... it becomes less focused on, in a way it becomes "manufactured" in a sense to their ego function and in the process its original source becomes less emphasized.

Every type must have Se somewhere in there psyche... but not every type has it as an ego function. Therefore it is possible this information is unconscious (Id/Super-Id) or conscious (Ego/Super-Ego). Further if its conscious (Ego/Super-Ego) it is either valued or undervalued as a result of where a person's focus is. If you focus on Ne, Se... "reality" merely becomes the clay from which you consider the potential of things. If you focus on Se, Ne... "potential" merely becomes the clay from which you consider the reality of things. Both essentially see the same thing... but merely from different perspectives. A pyramid is still a pyramid regardless of what perspective you see it from... but it does appear different when viewed from different vantage points. If I show you a picture of a pyramid in an unfamiliar vantage point... its not like you don't actually see the pyramid in that vantage point... you do... its just immediately it clicks in you... oh wait... that's really just ____, the vantage point you remember it from. You translate this experience into a preferred form. Se ego's have the preferred form of seeing reality as it is, without modification, just being fully aware of the experience... you can give them potentials... but to them this immediately bounces back into this "reality" perspective. Ne ego's have the preferred form of seeing reality as having potentials, no seeing it as it currently is, but what it could be.... even if you throw "this is how it is" at the Ne ego... they will translate this into well that means "it could be like this". Neither one is effectively blind to the information of other conscious functions... they are merely bias towards a particular type of information which is their preferred vantage point... as according to model A... the ability to simultaneously consider two conflicting pieces of information does not exist such as Ne and Se.

So basically while all types are aware of Se... it gets translated and chewed up like raw material to be used in their "vantage" point of reality. In the case of the Se-ego... that information is not just the ore.... its the metal itself. Simply experiencing something to them is receiving information in it's pure form to them rather than receiving it in an incomplete form that has to be digested.

There are essentially two factories if I understand socionics... an unconscious one and a conscious one. Each of them are bidirectional... and relate to tempermants. One is conscious another unconscious. EJ/IP and EP/IJ are merely a matter of direction. These factories process information elements... to produce them in a preferred vantage point which is fixated on a single leading function.

None of this is apparent on the surface... what you will see is manifestations of these characteristics.

To me SeTi is a realist as they don't take reality and process it into their preferred package like other types do... they take it straight up. This creates a portrait of an individual who is the typical realist. Of course there INFp-DS makes them unconsciously in need of NiFe information as this information helps their unconscious Te/Si nature flourish via stimulating production through their unconscious tempermant channel. The information produced in the Id, assists the ego unconsciously. This is manifested in the ESTp as an unconscious attraction towards NiFe.... being unconscious they are hardly aware of the unique vantage point this information is associated with... instead they know this kind of information somehow stimulates them. They have experiences with this kind of information and it works through them in such a way that leaves them feeling empowered in their ego... likely the unconscious nature of it means their ego feels suddenly inspired.

They are around an INFp... the INFp's perspective generates constant awareness of NiFe which unconsciously inspires their ego.... they feel this and are drawn to the INFp.

The ESTp however does not consciously have the appreciation the INFp has for NiFe information... all they know is it inspires their ego.... they don't really know much on the topic... but when its the current topic of consideration they feel inspired by some unconscious process.

Therefore the ESTp is likely to greatly enjoy idealistic/romantic/detached things because it inspires in them the potential for fuller experience... but its not like they are themselves the romantics.... that's the INFp...... which have Ni ego which are left only more inspired by the experiences and viewpoints of the ESTp.

That's my exposition.

I don't think it is true. I don't think INFps have less fulfilled realities than most other types. That's an impression people have. They are happy or sad or succesful or not, just like others. And I don't think ESTps have unfulfilled idealism. They are idealistic or not, just like others. People are different.

Fair enough although this sounds incredibly similar to what you are saying below.... I am just saying I use the labels "Cynic/Realist" and "Idealist" to categorize these... I have a sneaking suspicion there is a mis-communication here. I have this entire internal mental theme built up surrounding just these two words.... in general I consider character in films in a lot of ways to represent either idealists or cynic/realists.

One thing in the INFp-ESTp relationship that I often see, is that ESTps get stuck in the here and now, and don't see solutions/ways out, while INFps get stuck in a fantasy about the future without finding motivation to do anything to get there. So in a sense, they both look for meaning/motivation/help to go on. They find this meaning/motivation in their dual because the dual is so similar, in ways. Someone to team up with against a brutal world. And not only that. The INFp is slowing things down, so the ESTp gets a chance to see that his/her situation isn't as closed as it seemed, and the ESTp makes things happen, so that the INFp moves a bit here and there until things start to happen. Just like that. Effortlessly. Also, having a team mate in the cruel world is enough to keep them motivated, and when they are motivated they can do anything. Both ESTps and INFps struggle with lonelyness on some level, so finding someone to trust (for the ESTp) and someone who doesn't bore/annoy them after a while (for the INFp) is extremely giving in and by itself.

[Timeless]

ENTps and ISFp have a totally different thing going on... Its very similar because the hidden agendas are the same... but they are concerned with and ... Ne is about possibilities and uniqueness and Si about comfort, internal body sense, and sensation. This is what gives there relationship that alpha feel... because its quirky in an Ne way and comfortable in a Si way. The Ni/Se is more about the global picture and decisive action... Ne/Si is more laid back and childlike.

That made me smile.

[xerx]

Se vs. Si:

Se: Sudden, Worse Tempo, Strong, Pure, Simple, Clear, Rhythm, Stand Out, Higher highs/Lower lows

Si: Smooth, Better Tempo, Balanced, Varied, Complex, Colorful, Harmony, Blend In, Regular attunement

Can't you say this about any extrovert / introvert pair of IEs?

[Creepy-male]

Can't you say this about any extrovert / introvert pair of IEs?

I would say dynamic/static pair. Wouldn't it be reversed for the Rational I/E pairs?

[xerx]

I would say dynamic/static pair. Wouldn't it be reversed for the Rational I/E pairs?

I don't think so, or else Fi > Fe when it comes to spontaneity, higher highs and lower lows.

[Rubicon]

OH YES

I get really bad head aches and depressed when I don't get enough Si. I snuggle against people in expectation of them to rub cheeks with me. Squirl kisses, or just little touches throughout the day is really nice. ....ummm

I can be a kitten that way, meow.

Dammit, I guess I fail at Si then.

[Beautiful sky]

Dammit, I guess I fail at Si then.

No it doesn't. Your Si activates my Si. My Si can look like your Si.

[Rubicon]

No it doesn't. Your Si activates my Si. My Si can look like your Si.

Well I meant that my Si doesn't look like that. :-P I only know what to do when small children snuggle against me. lol

[Adam Strange]

I, an Se-valuing Gamma, was raised in an Si-valuing Delta family. As a child, my world was settled and respectable and predictable. The most disturbing thing that would ever happen would be something like the dog throwing up. Basically, my parents were eagerly anticipating the time when they would be secure in their old age.
The extended family had one Beta cousin branch, which my parents hated, and one Alpha cousin branch, which my parents liked but which I, as a Gamma, thought was composed entirely of space aliens.

The only Gammas in the family were me and my widowed Czech grandmother, who was ESI. My LSE mother, her daughter, avoided her but my grandmother lived close enough to us so that I'd see her fairly often. She had about eight sisters who lived in Pennsylvania, and her closest sister, "Aunt Mildred", was probably an SEE. Aunt Mildred was frequently married and then either widowed or divorced. She seemed to consume men and she swore like a sailor, and when we'd go and visit them, my ESI grandmother and Aunt Mildred would talk and talk and just have the most riotous time, swearing and laughing and talking about men in terms which I thought might burn my ears. The Pennsylvania branch of the family seemed like the Jukes and the Kallikaks to me. As crude and as broke as they were, I liked them better than I liked my parents.

I learned Se phrases from my grandmother which I would never, ever in a million years hear from my Si parents.

I was reminded of this fact recently while watching a video from Russian State Television. While the Russian elite are losing the Russian-Ukrainian war in a spectacular way, they are telling each other (and their Russian viewer-subjects) that they will "set the world on fire. We'll put an end to the existence of the old world and start a new era, a new phase, headed by Russia."
Whenever my ESI grandmother heard someone inept who was boasting about how they'd do this, and they'd do that, she'd just say "They'll shit their pants and slide in it."

Se vs Si.

[Claudius]

I, an Se-valuing Gamma, was raised in an Si-valuing Delta family. As a child, my world was settled and respectable and predictable. The most disturbing thing that would ever happen would be something like the dog throwing up. Basically, my parents were eagerly anticipating the time when they would be secure in their old age.
The extended family had one Beta cousin branch, which my parents hated, and one Alpha cousin branch, which my parents liked but which I, as a Gamma, thought was composed entirely of space aliens.

The only Gammas in the family were me and my widowed Czech grandmother, who was ESI. My LSE mother, her daughter, avoided her but my grandmother lived close enough to us so that I'd see her fairly often. She had about eight sisters who lived in Pennsylvania, and her closest sister, "Aunt Mildred", was probably an SEE. Aunt Mildred was frequently married and then either widowed or divorced. She seemed to consume men and she swore like a sailor, and when we'd go and visit them, my ESI grandmother and Aunt Mildred would talk and talk and just have the most riotous time, swearing and laughing and talking about men in terms which I thought might burn my ears. The Pennsylvania branch of the family seemed like the Jukes and the Kallikaks to me. As crude and as broke as they were, I liked them better than I liked my parents.

I learned Se phrases from my grandmother which I would never, ever in a million years hear from my Si parents.

I was reminded of this fact recently while watching a video from Russian State Television. While the Russian elite are losing the Russian-Ukrainian war in a spectacular way, they are telling each other (and their Russian viewer-subjects) that they will "set the world on fire. We'll put an end to the existence of the old world and start a new era, a new phase, headed by Russia."
Whenever my ESI grandmother heard someone inept who was boasting about how they'd do this, and they'd do that, she'd just say "They'll shit their pants and slide in it."

Se vs Si.

Wonderful anecdote, Adam. I've experienced something similar but with alphas vs betas - particularly in regards to how Si vs Se affects their Fe.

Both quadras focus more on the overall group atmosphere, but it's more harmonious for alphas. They don't seek to rock the boat so much and want everyone to feel comfortable. When they're joking, it's lighter in nature. By contrast, betas are often harsher. They don't mind testing others in games of Se strength to see who can be part of their group. They're not as likely to get upset over toes being stepped on - and more likely to fight back against being stepped on.

[Lord Pixel]

High school for me was all Se, to be cool you had to wear the trendiest stuff or beat someone up, or just be from a tough neighborhood and people will believe you could beat someone up. If you did either or both guys respected you and girls loved you. I'm from a place where when I tell people where I'm from they expect me to be a thug, so there was alot of Se expectation of me that I couldn't live up to, but I lied to get by, tried to play the part, sometimes I got tested by people but thank God it wasn't in front of a crowd. One kid swore I was a drug dealer when he first met me, and when he saw I wasn't he was disappointed, thought he had some badass friend. I've long since dropped that whole facade, but every now and again when I tell someone where I'm from they'll try and test me, I just don't give a shit anymore, I'm not whatever stereotype they have in their head.

I made friends with some bully kid in school, because I didn't want him to bully me. He tried to test me and ended up getting me in a situation where we both got arrested for shop lifting all because he said "I bet no one does this where you're from." I felt like I had to "prove" myself or some weird crap like that, anyway he cried when they put the cuffs on and almost tried to fight me at school because I told people lol.

In school we did this thing called "fresh cut", where if one of your friends got a new haircut you'd smack him in the back of the head as hard as you can and yell "fresh cut!", one kid did that to me and I smacked him back but I realized it was way to hard because he almost fell over, I felt bad because I didn't meant to smack him so hard, that was one of the first times I used force on a stranger like that and it made me feel like I didn't know how to control myself or something,.

I grew up with an Se lead cousin same age as me and was always compared to him, he probably was supervisor and being around him so early and so long probably caused me to develop an inferiority complex for awhile. Girls liked him more, guys respected him way more, most of my family even respected him more. He had way more guts to stand up to adults in our family than I did. My dad raised both of us and my dad used to take away our Nintendo if we didn't do our homework. I remember my SXE cousin saw where my dad put the Nintendo and just grabbed it and walked off and didn't care if my dad saw, I was in shock, because if my dad found out he would whoop our ass with the belt. He also got smacked in the face by our grandma and didn't bat an eye, he had tears in his eyes but he just stared her down and she couldn't do anything about it, the kid had guts, I would have been way too afraid. I mostly just followed the rules and broke them when the adults weren't looking.

My little brother is SLE and I couldn't tell when we were growing up, but now it's clear as day. And he had guts too, when my dad left the room to get the belt to whoop my behind, I'd stay put and dare not run because I knew it would be worse if he caught me in a corner somewhere, so I just took an ass whooping and cried myself to sleep. My brother would run, yell, and one time he jumped on the bed jumping over the belt like a jump rope lol. My little brother also would yell back at my dad, another thing he had the guts to do. I saw this as inconvenient, if my dad yelled at me I'd let him yell and just go do whatever I was gonna do when he wasn't looking. I saw the Si approach as convenient.

My SXE cousin's little brother is SEI, and me and him were more like brothers and my SLE little brother and SXE cousin where more like brothers, we all grew up together but later in life we migrated toward the person we related to more. Me and the SEI liked to draw, SLE brother and SXE cousin liked the play basketball. My grandma whose most likely ESE, LOVES my SEI cousin, he remembers every family member's birthday and even remembers to call and reminds other people to call. He always followed the rules, and when ever we did something risky as kids, like flip off the bed, or ride a skateboard for the first time, or slide down the stairs, he was super clumsy and prone to almost always getting hurt. He literally was the monkey that jumped on the bed, fell off and got a huge gash in his head. His SXE brother used to mess with him and push him to far, slap him in the face, jump on his back, but the SEI did not back down when he went over the edge. Tears in his eyes but he was like a raging hulk, that's why his SXE brother pushed him, he got a kick out of pushing his brother over the edge and seeing him rage out like that.

I remember one time me and my SXE cousin got in a serious fight, where I had to kick him out of my dad's house. My grandma found out and she did something that messed me up for years, she asked our little brothers who won the fight. I couldn't believe my grandma wasn't being impartial, ain't she supposed to love us equally, and tell us we shouldn't be fighting? But she was practically encouraging us to fight like that. Our little brothers feared SXE, so they said he won, but it was sloppy, there was no clear winner. But when they told her he won the fight she looked at him and I could see the respect grow in her eyes, I remember that day because that's the day I felt like you aren't respected in this world unless you've got Se, though at the time I didn't know what Se was, and that stayed with me for years.

[Tallmo]

High school for me was all Se, to be cool you had to wear the trendiest stuff or beat someone up, or just be from a tough neighborhood and people will believe you could beat someone up. If you did either or both guys respected you and girls loved you. I'm from a place where when I tell people where I'm from they expect me to be a thug, so there was alot of Se expectation of me that I couldn't live up to, but I lied to get by, tried to play the part, sometimes I got tested by people but thank God it wasn't in front of a crowd. One kid swore I was a drug dealer when he first met me, and when he saw I wasn't he was disappointed, thought he had some badass friend. I've long since dropped that whole facade, but every now and again when I tell someone where I'm from they'll try and test me, I just don't give a shit anymore, I'm not whatever stereotype they have in their head.

I made friends with some bully kid in school, because I didn't want him to bully me. He tried to test me and ended up getting me in a situation where we both got arrested for shop lifting all because he said "I bet no one does this where you're from." I felt like I had to "prove" myself or some weird crap like that, anyway he cried when they put the cuffs on and almost tried to fight me at school because I told people lol.

In school we did this thing called "fresh cut", where if one of your friends got a new haircut you'd smack him in the back of the head as hard as you can and yell "fresh cut!", one kid did that to me and I smacked him back but I realized it was way to hard because he almost fell over, I felt bad because I didn't meant to smack him so hard, that was one of the first times I used force on a stranger like that and it made me feel like I didn't know how to control myself or something,.

I grew up with an Se lead cousin same age as me and was always compared to him, he probably was supervisor and being around him so early and so long probably caused me to develop an inferiority complex for awhile. Girls liked him more, guys respected him way more, most of my family even respected him more. He had way more guts to stand up to adults in our family than I did. My dad raised both of us and my dad used to take away our Nintendo if we didn't do our homework. I remember my SXE cousin saw where my dad put the Nintendo and just grabbed it and walked off and didn't care if my dad saw, I was in shock, because if my dad found out he would whoop our ass with the belt. He also got smacked in the face by our grandma and didn't bat an eye, he had tears in his eyes but he just stared her down and she couldn't do anything about it, the kid had guts, I would have been way too afraid. I mostly just followed the rules and broke them when the adults weren't looking.

My little brother is SLE and I couldn't tell when we were growing up, but now it's clear as day. And he had guts too, when my dad left the room to get the belt to whoop my behind, I'd stay put and dare not run because I knew it would be worse if he caught me in a corner somewhere, so I just took an ass whooping and cried myself to sleep. My brother would run, yell, and one time he jumped on the bed jumping over the belt like a jump rope lol. My little brother also would yell back at my dad, another thing he had the guts to do. I saw this as inconvenient, if my dad yelled at me I'd let him yell and just go do whatever I was gonna do when he wasn't looking. I saw the Si approach as convenient.

My SXE cousin's little brother is SEI, and me and him were more like brothers and my SLE little brother and SXE cousin where more like brothers, we all grew up together but later in life we migrated toward the person we related to more. Me and the SEI liked to draw, SLE brother and SXE cousin liked the play basketball. My grandma whose most likely ESE, LOVES my SEI cousin, he remembers every family member's birthday and even remembers to call and reminds other people to call. He always followed the rules, and when ever we did something risky as kids, like flip off the bed, or ride a skateboard for the first time, or slide down the stairs, he was super clumsy and prone to almost always getting hurt. He literally was the monkey that jumped on the bed, fell off and got a huge gash in his head. His SXE brother used to mess with him and push him to far, slap him in the face, jump on his back, but the SEI did not back down when he went over the edge. Tears in his eyes but he was like a raging hulk, that's why his SXE brother pushed him, he got a kick out of pushing his brother over the edge and seeing him rage out like that.

I remember one time me and my SXE cousin got in a serious fight, where I had to kick him out of my dad's house. My grandma found out and she did something that messed me up for years, she asked our little brothers who won the fight. I couldn't believe my grandma wasn't being impartial, ain't she supposed to love us equally, and tell us we shouldn't be fighting? But she was practically encouraging us to fight like that. Our little brothers feared SXE, so they said he won, but it was sloppy, there was no clear winner. But when they told her he won the fight she looked at him and I could see the respect grow in her eyes, I remember that day because that's the day I felt like you aren't respected in this world unless you've got Se, though at the time I didn't know what Se was, and that stayed with me for years.

Nice story. I enjoyed reading this.

You wrote:

I saw this as inconvenient, if my dad yelled at me I'd let him yell and just go do whatever I was gonna do when he wasn't looking. I saw the Si approach as convenient.

The thing is that Si is really unrelated to anything going on in the outside world. Even passive behaviours like giving in, letting things be, staying in the middle etc. is really just weak/unvalued Se. Si in itself is just as expanding as Se, but everything happens in the inner impressionistic world. It is seldom talked about and remains hidden.

But yes, the approach you mention is common for Si types. But it is not Si, but unvalued Se.