Te/Ti Let's clear things up

[Krig the Viking]

Te organizes external information
Ti does not organize external information; Ti people amaze me when they tell me to organize my desk or organize my thoughts, they take no initiative in organizing things of external world in my observation. They are far too concerned with eliminating contridictions and systematizing things inside their own head to focus on external stuff.

Ti + Se organizes external information, Ti + Ne organizes internal information. Se is defined as "external statics of objects", which is to say, explicit, external information about the more permanent, unchanging details of objects and people in the world. Ti, when combined with Se, sorts and organizes the world's explicit details into logical categories and hierarchies.

Ne, by contrast, is defined as "internal statics of objects", which is to say, implicit, internal information about the more permanent, unchanging generalizations of objects and people in the world. Ti, when combined with Ne, sorts and organizes the world's implicit generalizations into logical categories and hierarchies.

Te doesn't "organize" anything; it's a dynamic function. Te is similar to Ti only in that both are rational elements focused on external/explicit information. Ti, being "external statics of fields", tries to take information and organize it into unchanging categories and hierarchies. Te, being "external dynamics of objects", sees how the explicit, external information about objects and people in the world is constantly shifting and changing, and tries to influence that in efficient and productive ways. It's similar to Fe, "internal dynamics of objects", which sees how implicit, internal information about objects and people in the world shifts and changes, and tries to influence it in positive, emotionally moving ways.

When combined with Ni, Te seeks to influence implicit, generalized, long-term changes in the world. When combined with Si, Te seeks to influence explicit, specific, short-term changes in the world. In neither case does it "organize" anything in the same way that Ti does; in fact, Te usually sees Ti's insistence on organization and hierarchy as a pointless hindrance to its goal of influencing changes in a shifting, dynamic world.

[leckysupport]

Te, being "external dynamics of objects", sees how the explicit, external information about objects and people in the world is constantly shifting and changing

Constant change and shifting of anything in the real world basically implies concepts such as 'uncertainty' and 'risk'. Concepts which are generally associated with Ni and Ne.

[Krig the Viking]

Constant change and shifting of anything in the real world basically implies concepts such as 'uncertainty' and 'risk'. Concepts which are generally associated with Ni and Ne.

The implication you inferred was not something I had intended to imply. Si sensations, for example, are also constantly shifting and changing. Consider someone laying on the beach: the sun goes behind the clouds, and the person feels cooler. The sun comes out again, and the person feels warmer. The breeze comes in from the sea, and the person smells saltwater, etc. Si sensations are constantly shifting and changing, and they're not always associated with uncertainty or risk.

Uncertainty and risk are more closely linked to "the unknown", which might explain why you associate those terms with Ne and Ni. The results of change can sometimes be unknown, but often they can be known with reasonable certainty (the sun will set tonight and rise tomorrow -- certainly that's an example of a shift or change in the world that entails no significant uncertainty or risk). In such cases, the association of risk and uncertainty with "constant change and shifting" is unwarranted.

[leckysupport]

The implication you inferred was not something I had intended to imply. Si sensations, for example, are also constantly shifting and changing. Consider someone laying on the beach: the sun goes behind the clouds, and the person feels cooler. The sun comes out again, and the person feels warmer. The breeze comes in from the sea, and the person smells saltwater, etc. Si sensations are constantly shifting and changing, and they're not always associated with uncertainty or risk.

But you talked of explicit external information about objects not internal sensations, hence why I spoke of "constant change and shifting of anything in the real world".

Uncertainty and risk are more closely linked to "the unknown", which might explain why you associate those terms with Ne and Ni. The results of change can sometimes be unknown, but often they can be known with reasonable certainty (the sun will set tonight and rise tomorrow -- certainly that's an example of a shift or change in the world that entails no significant uncertainty or risk). In such cases, the association of risk and uncertainty with "constant change and shifting" is unwarranted.

Constant changing of real world objects typically leads to the unknown just due to the complexity of what goes on around us (in the real world), practically there is very little you can be certain about. In business the field of Risk Management is all about managing change and dealing with unexpected occurrences. You really can't face change in a practical situation without 'risk' and 'uncertainty' popping right up.

[Krig the Viking]

But you talked of explicit external information about objects not internal sensations, hence why I spoke of "constant change and shifting of anything in the real world".



Constant changing of real world objects typically leads to the unknown just due to the complexity of what goes on around us (in the real world), practically there is very little you can be certain about. In business the field of Risk Management is all about managing change and dealing with unexpected occurrences. You really can't face change in a practical situation without 'risk' and 'uncertainty' popping right up.

You're thinking of Te blocked with Ni, that is, Te that deals with long-term change. Obviously long-term change is more unknown, and thus has greater risk and uncertainty associated with it.

Te blocked with Si, that is, Te that deals with short-term change, need not necessarily be associated with high levels of risk or uncertainty. The LSE who fixes a car knows how changing the parts of the engine will affect how the engine runs, which does not necessarily involve risk. Or the SLI who installs an air conditioner in just the right spot, to keep the house cool. There are plenty of examples of change in practical situations that don't involve significant risk or uncertainty, but they're mostly smaller, short-term changes.

[leckysupport]

Te blocked with Si, that is, Te that deals with short-term change, need not necessarily be associated with high levels of risk or uncertainty. The LSE who fixes a car knows how changing the parts of the engine will affect how the engine runs, which does not necessarily involve risk. Or the SLI who installs an air conditioner in just the right spot, to keep the house cool. There are plenty of examples of change in practical situations that don't involve significant risk or uncertainty, but they're mostly smaller, short-term changes.

I could see your point from that angle. I guess I just have a problem with your wording.

From my point of view Te+Si wouldn't do much witnessing of changes and probably would try to have more of a direct influence in changing their surroundings. Witnessing and standing back while things change around you sounds too "passive" and uninvolved to be associated with Te + Si.

[Krig the Viking]

I could see your point from that angle. I guess I just have a problem with your wording.

From my point of view Te+Si wouldn't do much witnessing of changes and probably would try to have more of a direct influence in changing their surroundings. Witnessing and standing back while things change around you sounds too "passive" and uninvolved to be associated with Te + Si.

Well, blame that on my naturally passive IJ way of describing things.

[Beautiful sky]

Ti + Se organizes external information, Ti + Ne organizes internal information. Se is defined as "external statics of objects", which is to say, explicit, external information about the more permanent, unchanging details of objects and people in the world. Ti, when combined with Se, sorts and organizes the world's explicit details into logical categories and hierarchies.

Ne, by contrast, is defined as "internal statics of objects", which is to say, implicit, internal information about the more permanent, unchanging generalizations of objects and people in the world. Ti, when combined with Ne, sorts and organizes the world's implicit generalizations into logical categories and hierarchies.

Te doesn't "organize" anything; it's a dynamic function. Te is similar to Ti only in that both are rational elements focused on external/explicit information. Ti, being "external statics of fields", tries to take information and organize it into unchanging categories and hierarchies. Te, being "external dynamics of objects", sees how the explicit, external information about objects and people in the world is constantly shifting and changing, and tries to influence that in efficient and productive ways. It's similar to Fe, "internal dynamics of objects", which sees how implicit, internal information about objects and people in the world shifts and changes, and tries to influence it in positive, emotionally moving ways.

When combined with Ni, Te seeks to influence implicit, generalized, long-term changes in the world. When combined with Si, Te seeks to influence explicit, specific, short-term changes in the world. In neither case does it "organize" anything in the same way that Ti does; in fact, Te usually sees Ti's insistence on organization and hierarchy as a pointless hindrance to its goal of influencing changes in a shifting, dynamic world.

How can Te not organize, what is methodical thinking then? What is algorithmic thinking?


: a procedure for solving a mathematical problem (as of finding the greatest common divisor) in a finite number of steps that frequently involves repetition of an operation; broadly : a step-by-step procedure for solving a problem or accomplishing some end

Te essentially finds the steps involved to solve a problem or devise a plan of efficiency...combining my thoughts that are out of control sometimes into an order that can be comprehended and organized.

Every description of EII is of one who doesn't keep good track of time because they get involved in a hobby and in trivialities and one who is not well organized; so your argument about Te not being organized and reflect objective reality is just BS and the argument is flawed.

The last sentence is BS...absolute idiocracy...

[Aiss]

How can Te not organize, what is methodical thinking then?

It's methodical as in thinking in methods - dynamic instead of static classification, system, organization, not in conventional meaning of the word, just like "intuitive" in common usage doesn't mean the same as in Jungian sense. It's dynamics of objects, assessing their function, rather than fields. Organization is related to fields (introverted) almost by definition, because it doesn't deal with an object, but with relationships between objects (as in, putting objects in some order), and static, because it requires some measure of stability in relations, focus on constant ones, not on their changeability.

[leckysupport]

It's methodical as in thinking in methods

IMO these methods are always backed up by some sort of reason based on empirical information. And this reason must make some sort rational logical sense. So in a way Te would organize.

[Beautiful sky]

It's methodical as in thinking in methods - dynamic instead of static classification, system, organization, not in conventional meaning of the word, just like "intuitive" in common usage doesn't mean the same as in Jungian sense. It's dynamics of objects, assessing their function, rather than fields. Organization is related to fields (introverted) almost by definition, because it doesn't deal with an object, but with relationships between objects (as in, putting objects in some order), and static, because it requires some measure of stability in relations, focus on constant ones, not on their changeability.

Of course Te organizes stuff in the immediate outside world based on derived formulas, otherwise, I would be up shit creek...sorry.

I maintain the order...they put things in order...or make up methods and I follow..leaders/supporters.

[Aiss]

Of course Te organizes stuff in the immediate outside world based on derived formulas, otherwise, I would be up shit creek...sorry.

My point is that it doesn't.

[Beautiful sky]

My point is that it doesn't.

Are you out of you mind...how can it not...who will?

If dual pairs ESTj/INFj neither organize then I guess they live in filth and mess right?

If they don't organize then I guess every fucking description of this dual pair shoots to hell because of what you said.
You can't even see your own contridictions in your logic.

My point to you is that your information is absolutely misleading and inaccurate.

[Aiss]

Are you out of you mind...how can it not...who will?

If dual pairs ESTj/INFj neither organize then I guess they live in filth and mess right?

If they don't organize then I guess every fucking description of this dual pair shoots to hell because of what you said.
You can't even see your own contridictions in your logic.

My point to you is that your information is absolutely misleading and inaccurate.

Cleaning. Yes. I see your meaning now. You should have said so in the beginning, you know.

[Krig the Viking]

Organize:
1 : to cause to develop an organic structure
2 : to form into a coherent unity or functioning whole : integrate <trying to organize her thoughts>
3 a : to set up an administrative structure for b : to persuade to associate in an organization; especially : unionize
4 : to arrange by systematic planning and united effort

I've been using "organize" as a synonym for "categorize" or "classify". I suppose you're right, Maritsa, in that Te types have the ability to manipulate and affect the external aspects of the dynamic, changing world, to make it do what they want it to do and achieve their desired goals.

However, their focus is on actions and methods, not on logical classification. They care about results, not systems.

[Logos]

Your BS is misleading, Rod's alighns perfectly with Filatova and Socioniko.

Thinking up ways of doing things is organizing...Te does not only come up with ways of working but also it works very well, very much unlike Ti sometimes.

Where in the description of Filatova's here do you see Ti organizing?...

He is able to rationally and adequately choose the best of the available systems or dogmas and to fight for its implementation uncompromisingly up to the point of impertinence. He categorically rejects everything that cannot fit into this system, and perfects it to its ideal state. He is very consistent in the realization of his system, even when it comprises inconstancy. In this way Talleyrand succeeded in occupying the highest positions under Bourbons, the Convent, the Directory, Napoleon, and once again under Bourbons, and finally died prosperous and rich, which he has always strived for.

Krig is not spewing bullshit. There is a noticeable discrepancy between Rod and Augusta's descriptions of Te.

Are you out of you mind...how can it not...who will?

If dual pairs ESTj/INFj neither organize then I guess they live in filth and mess right?

This is a strawman argument. There is no messy/filth or organized/clean information element. There is no guarantee for any dual pair that they will have one partner concerned with a cleanly organized living environment. This is not necessarily present in an LSE/EII couple either. So your assertion that Te must be an organizing IE because otherwise a LSE/EII couple would live in filth is a hysterical hyperbolic stretch.

Cleaning. Yes. I see your meaning now. You should have said so in the beginning, you know.

If you think that she's unclear here, you should see how terribly unclear is she is with asking questions about parties. She always has difficulty at saying/asking what she really wants to say/ask.

[Beautiful sky]

INTROVERTED INTELLECTUAL CONCEPTION
Introverted Intellectual Conception prefers to
collect information from inside and to compare it to the
sets of subjective rules and understandings. The major
method of such comparison is Intellectual evaluation of
subjective facts. These rules and understandings don’t need
to be substantiated by any objective data. In fact, if
objective data contradict with the ideas of Introverted
Intellectual Conception , they are either ignored or
twisted to fit the idea. If following the reality is the main
objective of Extraverted Intellectual Conception ,
Introverted Intellectual Conception follows the inner
geometry of the ideas it develops. This type of thinking
may become very complex, abstract and symbolic and
alienate from the reality. In extremes, Introverted
Intellectual Conception becomes absolutely
incomprehensible, closed in, lacking any touch with the
reality.

EXTRAVERTED INTELLECTUAL CONCEPTION
Extraverted Intellectual Conception compares
new information to the sets of objective rules and
understandings. The major method of such comparison is
intellectual evaluation of objective facts. It constantly
collects objective evidences and derives rules and laws
from the evidences collected. Every conclusion is inferred
from a set of objective facts collected from the reality and
is used for a practical purpose directed outward, back to
the reality. Extraverted Intellectual type has an
intellectual formula for everything. It approaches any
phenomena from the standpoint of a universal set of rules
derived from experience. Such type sees momentarily
every aspect of a problem and is able to factor them in
properly to come to a solution. The problem is – not
everything can be categorized. People can’t operate like
machines. Not everybody is a perfect thinking machine
like Extraverted Intellectual type. Not everybody uses
objective reasoning as a universal gauge. Sometimes
people want to do silly things just for the sake of it.

[Krig the Viking]

EXTRAVERTED INTELLECTUAL CONCEPTION
Extraverted Intellectual Conception compares
new information to the sets of objective rules and
understandings. The major method of such comparison is
intellectual evaluation of objective facts. It constantly
collects objective evidences and derives rules and laws
from the evidences collected. Every conclusion is inferred
from a set of objective facts collected from the reality and
is used for a practical purpose directed outward, back to
the reality. Extraverted Intellectual type has an
intellectual formula for everything. It approaches any
phenomena from the standpoint of a universal set of rules
derived from experience. Such type sees momentarily
every aspect of a problem and is able to factor them in
properly to come to a solution. The problem is – not
everything can be categorized. People can’t operate like
machines. Not everybody is a perfect thinking machine
like Extraverted Intellectual type. Not everybody uses
objective reasoning as a universal gauge. Sometimes
people want to do silly things just for the sake of it.

Rod's description of Te is misleading; it inadequately conveys the dynamic qualities of the element, and thus fails to distinguish it from Ti. Here is Augusta's description of the same element:

Black (extraverted) logic
Perceives information about animate and inanimate objects' physical activity, deeds, and actions/activities. This perception provides the ability to make sense of what is going on. It defines the awareness of and ability or inability to think up ways of doing things, distinguish rational actions from irrational ones, and the ability or inability to direct others' work.

When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to plan his and others' work, understand the logicalness and illogicalness of processes, and correct the work activities of other people in accordance with this understanding. And the ability to apply personally and convey to others the most rational ways of doing things.

Notes on "The Socion, or Socionics Basics" -- pg. 2

As Aiss said, Te focuses on methods and ways of doing things. It focuses on "what works" and "what doesn't work". It doesn't care about putting things into static categories like Ti does.

[Beautiful sky]

Rod's description of Te is misleading; it inadequately conveys the dynamic qualities of the element. Here is Augusta's description of the same element:



Notes on "The Socion, or Socionics Basics" -- pg. 2

As Aiss said, Te focuses on methods and ways of doing things. It focuses on "what works" and "what doesn't work". It doesn't care about putting things into static categories like Ti does.

Your BS is misleading, Rod's alighns perfectly with Filatova and Socioniko.

Thinking up ways of doing things is organizing...Te does not only come up with ways of working but also it works very well, very much unlike Ti sometimes.

Where in the description of Filatova's here do you see Ti organizing?...

He is able to rationally and adequately choose the best of the available systems or dogmas and to fight for its implementation uncompromisingly up to the point of impertinence. He categorically rejects everything that cannot fit into this system, and perfects it to its ideal state. He is very consistent in the realization of his system, even when it comprises inconstancy. In this way Talleyrand succeeded in occupying the highest positions under Bourbons, the Convent, the Directory, Napoleon, and once again under Bourbons, and finally died prosperous and rich, which he has always strived for.

[Krig the Viking]

Your BS is misleading, Rod's alighns perfectly with Filatova and Socioniko.

Thinking up ways of doing things is organizing...Te does not only come up with ways of working but also it works very well, very much unlike Ti sometimes.

Where in the description of Filatova's here do you see Ti organizing?...

He is able to rationally and adequately choose the best of the available systems or dogmas and to fight for its implementation uncompromisingly up to the point of impertinence. He categorically rejects everything that cannot fit into this system, and perfects it to its ideal state. He is very consistent in the realization of his system, even when it comprises inconstancy. In this way Talleyrand succeeded in occupying the highest positions under Bourbons, the Convent, the Directory, Napoleon, and once again under Bourbons, and finally died prosperous and rich, which he has always strived for.

LSI chooses a "system" or "dogma", and "categorically" rejects anything that does not fit into it. Ti divides the world into a set of static categories, as Filatova there describes. Te, by contrast, sees how objects in the world always change, and believes that static categories are therefore pointless, since things are always changing anyway.

[Aiss]

Where in the description of Filatova's here do you see Ti organizing?...

He is able to rationally and adequately choose the best of the available systems or dogmas and to fight for its implementation uncompromisingly up to the point of impertinence. He categorically rejects everything that cannot fit into this system, and perfects it to its ideal state. He is very consistent in the realization of his system, even when it comprises inconstancy. In this way Talleyrand succeeded in occupying the highest positions under Bourbons, the Convent, the Directory, Napoleon, and once again under Bourbons, and finally died prosperous and rich, which he has always strived for.

Unless in your opinion organization doesn't have anything to do with putting things in a system. In which case you should perhaps share your understanding of the word with us, for the sake of this discussion.

[Beautiful sky]

Unless in your opinion organization doesn't have anything to do with putting things in a system. In which case you should perhaps share your understanding of the word with us, for the sake of this discussion.

TRY READING

" He knows that business only then goes perfectly if the necessary tempo is set from the very beginning. He does not tolerate procrastination, is an ardent struggler for quality and thoroughness in all work. A good army officer. Like Thomas Edison, a representative of this type is capable of working 19.5 hours a day. He tends to take other people out of the condition of complacency. "

YOU CAN'T SET A TEMPO IF YOU DON'T ORGANIZE YOUR THOUGHTS INTO METHODS.
PEOPLE IN CONDITIONS OF COMPLACENCY WASTE TIME DOING NOTHING OR SUBMERSE IN HOBBIES OR TRIVIAL CRAP LIKE ME.

HERE'S ANOTHER

"The second bright trait of The Administrator is his ability to take care of his family's welfare. He strives for a high standard of living. He demands quality and possesses well-developed esthetic taste. He is a kind of gourmet, likes tasty and healthy meals; parties for his close friends or family members organized by him are distinguished by very high taste".