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Thread: Supervision Relations: Stories and Experiences

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    Wacey, could you clarify how those examples relate to supervision relationships in socionics?

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    Eventually any dislike becomes mutual which is why I don't buy into the theory of supervision. It essentially states that there are people out there that you're bothered by, and they aren't bothered by you - and there's nothing you can do about it.

    But realistically, the victimized person will rally and get other people to hate that the person that they hate- making the person who was once neutral, also hate that person. It's a natural form of social politics. Socionics doesn't really take that into account because it deals with people in such a pure interpersonally way.

    Also my mom is my supervisee but our relationship is okay. It probably helps that she's my mom and still feels like she has authority/vanity over me. And well I also think socionics is 'bullshit' too.

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    Like I mentioned in my other post from a couple days ago, I've found supervision to be a kind of relationship "trap", both in my own experience as well as seeing and hearing about others' experiences with supervision.

    Don't read too literally into the intertype descriptions. First of all, things get lost in translation from Russian. Secondly, there is only so much you can truly put into words, which really must be experienced to fully understand. Thirdly, the actual manifestations of an intertype really depends on the circumstances in which you are interacting, how closely you have to work, what does your surroundings compel you to talk about, who is in charge of whom (especially for supervision).

    In my case, I had a co-worker who is a suspected LII. We got along well for a year. A whole year. Things went sour when we had to work on a project together. Before that we actually talked a lot and enjoyed each others' conversations, as long as it had nothing to do with work. After the falling out, I realized that keeping to non-work-related conversations was a must when it came to relating to her, as I no longer trusted her with work convos, and she got deeply offended if i cut off all convo with her. Luckily I no longer have to work with her. My overall sentiments coming out of that experience though was a feeling of betrayal, disappointment because I'd thought we were good friends previously,

    The issue with supervision is that you share an ego function, and a superid function. So you relate closely over those things, you see yourselves as such similar people, you bond over that. Furthermore, your demonstrative function feeds the other person's superid as well, so even though you might not value that particular function, your supervisor/ee really likes you for it. T(it's mutual, not one-sided). Mind you the communication will still be fraught with some misunderstandings, just because of the "delivery" format, but you like each other enough and do have shared values such that you do end up deciphering.

    It's not until circumstances require you to exchange info that engages the function that is your POLR (if you are the supervisee) that the badness truly starts. So the friendship could last for a while until that happens.

    Then, you get the POLR hit, perhaps get annoyed/irritant, perhaps start engaging your role function because of that, which happens to be your supervisor's POLR. So much like in conflict, BOTH parties end up getting POLR hits. (again, mutual, not one sided, just slightly different process than in conflict, manifesting differently).

    In other words, supervision and conflict and both bad relationships. Some say that supervision is actually worse than conflict, and I can definitely appreciate why... it's insidiously bad. It creeps up on you after you've bonded, and that can be more painful than just knowing right off the bat (perhaps even just subconsciously) that you dont mesh well with someone
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    ...Secondly, there is only so much you can truly put into words, which really must be experienced to fully understand...
    Actually, you have made such good argument, that you have proven yourself wrong ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Eventually any dislike becomes mutual which is why I don't buy into the theory of supervision. It essentially states that there are people out there that you're bothered by, and they aren't bothered by you - and there's nothing you can do about it.

    But realistically, the victimized person will rally and get other people to hate that the person that they hate- making the person who was once neutral, also hate that person. It's a natural form of social politics. Socionics doesn't really take that into account because it deals with people in such a pure interpersonally way.

    Also my mom is my supervisee but our relationship is okay. It probably helps that she's my mom and still feels like she has authority/vanity over me. And well I also think socionics is 'bullshit' too.
    What you describe fits better in benefit than supervision. The issue is more that some person has a sort of psychological "domination" over the other, not that he/she is indifferent, not bothered.

    Anyway if this issue of relations has any portion of truth in it, it would only make sense statistically. A zillion of variables would affect the outcome, like your particular example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Actually, you have made such good argument, that you have proven yourself wrong ;-)
    how so? Are you saying my description was that good? aw thanks that's such a sweet compliment... I had to think about it for a little bit but then it hit me...

    But again, I can really only describe it that well because of the way I had experienced it. Before it happened to me, I only had a vague idea of what supervision might be like. Also, to bear in mind, one person's supervision experience may not be another's. My own experience with another "supervisor" at some point in the future may not be the same, even. It does depend on circumstances. the bottom line though is that supervision does not end well.
    Last edited by Suz; 02-12-2013 at 03:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Wacey, could you clarify how those examples relate to supervision relationships in socionics?

    I wanted to imagine scenarios in which each type is offering advice that would be accepted by supervisee and rejected at the same time.

    When I look at the threads title about "not entirelly unpleasent, just demeaning" I think about other examples outside of socionics that I could use to describe this ambiguous statement. I think that intertype relationships come down to communication, and I think what types of communication would make one feel demeaned and at the same time, appreciative?

    When a person is invalidated in a relationship, this means there has been a barrier to communication and understanding. The socionics literature says just that regarding supervision: one person feels the other does not understand them or there methods. The description of supervision starts out by saying that this is an asymmetrical relationship. Hmm, I thought. What exactly does an asymmetrical relationship look like? How does a person talk to another in an asymetrical relationship? So I had this other great set of ideas out there about communication blockers, and how if used, makes one feel invalidated. To me, the leap between invalidation and supervision is not a long one.

    Invalidation occurs when one person does not feel heard or understood. They are left with the feeling "are you even listening?". Each sociotype is going to feel invalidated for very different reasons. What makes an LSI say, "are you listening?", will be very different from what makes an LSE say, "are you listening?". The difference lies in the personalities make-up. Invalidation occurs whenever a person feels they are not heard properly. It does not preclude the opportunity for the supervisee to not appreciate the supervisors advice. This is because that advice maybe coming from the supervisors creative function, which happens to be the supervisees base function. In this way they connect. Each member can value that shared IEand all its correspodning information.

    The next step was to take the numerous barriers to communication that are used in clinical counselling, and apply them to each sociotype. For me it is not hard to envision the types using specific communicatuion barriers. As I do not have a proper copy and paste system on the device I cannot search for the many, many examples, both on this forum and in other places that people have written that explain when a sociotype uses these barriers. I think we can all agree the conventional consesus is clear. For example: does not an ESI have the tendancy to moralize a situation? Or an LSI advise others while disregarding anothers feelings? Or an LII asking to many illrelevent questions that move an IEE away from their feelin? Or an ESE diverting the conversation away from anothers concerns to a different topic? Or an IEE reading way to much into anothers "head" and psycoanalyzing that person? Or a ILE critizising anothers methods? Or an IEI trying to reassure anothers feeling when assurance is not appropriate or helpful? Or an LSE attempting to convince another with an appeal to facts? All of these comes from the supervisors leading function.

    All these examples are not difficult and in fact I have seen. People with different sociotypes say that they do these things with another. That they are things that each sociotype is in the habit of doing. For me, it is interesting to note that the duals of each type might appreciate and welcome each communication blocker. For example, a LIE might like to have awareness of the moral implications of something. Or a ESE might like to have questions asked that move them away from there feelings for a minute and focus on the facts. Or an SLI might welcome the chance to have their brain picked apart by a preceptive IEE. Or an SLE might like to be reassured by their IEI dual. Or an EIE might want to be advised as to the next course of action by an LSI. And ect.

    So from the supervisee standpoint, they are receiving and polr hit, as others have mentioned. For example: an SLI may feel slightly uncomfortable with their Fe polr when as ESE tries to manuaver the conversation away from their own feelings and to another, in my example the ESE in a lunch room. The SLI does not like talking at length with strangers aquintances about highly personal feelings in the first place. This applies to all my examples, each sociotype is receiving a polr hit from the supervisors leading function.

    This hit comes in the form of communication blockers that invalidate the supervisee, but might otherwise been seen as welcomed by the supervisors dual. I wanted to create real to life scenarios that are realistic and could happen anywhere. I wanted to imagine what the word demeaning might look like in real life. I wanted to explain what asymmetrical would mean by using the ideas of invalidation and communication blockers. I find it not difficult to connect these two together. I welcome different people of different sociotypes to offer their opinion on whether or not the communication blockers are appropriate to them. I feel that from a working usable tool, they are appropriate to each sociotype and it would take no stretch of the imagination to see the sociotypes using them, albiet uncontrollably, in a supervision situation. It could just bewhat my Ne creative looks like, attatching two ideas together.

    One last thing: these moment to moment situations happen so quickly, as all intertype relationships do. They have no inherent value as good or bad right or wrong. They are an exchange, a resonating of personality elements. It would be impossible to dissect a given scenario and break each word or gesture down to a given IE and function interaction between two people. I think one has to blur their eyes while watching an interaction to see how all the pieces fit together.
    Last edited by wacey; 02-12-2013 at 08:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    When a person is invalidated in a relationship, this means there has been a barrier to communication and understanding.
    I think this what irked me out. The invalidation isn't just miscommunication, it's caused by some sort of disagreement which can occur when communication is flawless and amiable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think this what irked me out. The invalidation isn't just miscommunication, it's caused by some sort of disagreement which can occur when communication is flawless and amiable.
    I suppose I meant relationship being the interaction with the person in front of you. Cash lady, doctor, roomate, coworker, parent, in a moment by moment sort of event and not he long terminvalidation that comes from a long standning disagreement. Thankyou for pointing that out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Eventually any dislike becomes mutual which is why I don't buy into the theory of supervision. It essentially states that there are people out there that you're bothered by, and they aren't bothered by you - and there's nothing you can do about it.

    But realistically, the victimized person will rally and get other people to hate that the person that they hate- making the person who was once neutral, also hate that person. It's a natural form of social politics. Socionics doesn't really take that into account because it deals with people in such a pure interpersonally way.

    Also my mom is my supervisee but our relationship is okay. It probably helps that she's my mom and still feels like she has authority/vanity over me. And well I also think socionics is 'bullshit' too.
    Mm yeah, I wouldn't say that SEIs hate me or that I hate them, more just that sometimes the things I say make their eyes go wide. There was this douchey SEI hipster guy I knew and hated once for potentially socionics-related reasons but I got far away as soon as I could. I have a bad memory for details which seems to piss off SEIs and makes them think I'm irresponsible, especially when I go on to lie or improvise to get them off my back. And if in the end they can make me admit that I lied and that I just don't think the details are that fucking important, omg... It's like asking for death. I know it's wrong to lie but sometimes there's just no avoiding it especially in situations where it's already tense enough.

    In the work environment I tend to clash with SEIs the most due to missing those "important" details. Whereas my ESE mom would make a big fuss about how forgetting to do this or that has RUINED THE DAY or whatever, and even my ESE coworkers have done this, she eventually forgets about it and goes back to being Fe with me. IEIs would be understanding and start fixing it with me, talking about how they would have forgotten/missed it too and trying to console me if they like me, or if they didn't like me as much, doing it themselves and being sort of grumpy not at me but just in general until something brightened their day. But SEIs... dear god. I thought I was going to get fired once working for an SEI when I forgot to put up some decals on her day off for a promotion that started the next day, for something that no one was going to buy anyway. Even thinking about the verbal lashing I got from that makes my head hurt.
    Dandelion Fluff Upon a Spoon

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    Supervision is a hostile takeover LOL.

    Well, my brother, SEE, is living with me for a short time, to help me make it through a really tough emotional time that we're both going through in supporting my sister and my father. He just does things as he sees fit; for example, he decided his table LOOKED better so he replaced mine with his; he decided the couch should face the other direction to maximize a better TV WATCHING experience; all things from food to toilet paper are those that produce the most pleasurable sensations. I'm so opposite of this, but let me tell you, I love and appreciate his input; it has certainly improved my sensory experience, makes me feel warmer and cozier at home because it's aesthetically pleasing; I love that my butt feels so soft. Usually, I'm about saving the planet because heck I want to have children and I want them to live in a nice place and so YES I will sacrifice getting three ply toilette tissue for something that is a better environmental resource even if it's a bit flimsy. But, he nope, it's about his butt in this moment, who cares about the next. Um, what else? well he's great at alternating washing the dishes with me. Sucks at real cleaning. I mean REAL cleaning. eh. I'm not a clean freak but I like the floors to be clean so that I can walk bear foot.

    So we run into conflict when he throws things within visual view of the trash out...I had a piece of paper that had important notes on it next to the trash not inside it and he threw it out instead of putting it on the counter ARG... He demands my attention "Saturday we're having a barbecue HERE." Participate, do, do, do...so much of it makes me feel sensory overwhelmed and I just wanna rest.

    If I were married to an SEE, I would need ALOT of escape time. Too much escape time = UNPRODUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-19-2013 at 04:02 AM.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    @Maritsa: the word was demeaning, not demanding. that too though.
    Thanks.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    That blog was hard to read and full of opinions on how the other person thinks more than it was observational data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah. This topic has ben reharsed plenty of times. The general conclusion is, that the real problematic situation could be one where the supervisor is your boss and/or someone that needs to evaluate your work on a frequent basis.
    hm really? Maybe it would depend on the types involved. I could see criticism or supervision from an ESTp more tolerable in a working activity. I've experienced a breakdown of communication in the relationship realm as well as absolute contentment and adoration for one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I've got a couple of ESE friends I see occasionally and they're really fun. But... yeah.


    Fe1 (ESE) vs Fe4 (SLI), my very favorite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by malna View Post


    Fe1 (ESE) vs Fe4 (SLI), my very favorite.
    That was funny! But i thought Hugh Laurie is typically typed LSI...
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    Glad you liked it. As for the typing, there are other schools. I've seen Fry and Laurie typed for IEE and SLI respectively. I'm not sure if I agree with that. Regardless, I meant the characters in that sketch.

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    I think my beloved grandmother is ESE and therefore my supervisor. But I think it's ok when your granny is your supervisor we get along very well.

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    Thanks for your replies everyone . I have recently got in contact with an old ESE best friend; we always have so much affection for one another and fun together. However, our relationship always had little arguments, and betrayals; I found her arguing with me in public kind of confusing, upsetting and humiliating at times. She was also really subservient in our relationship; I kind of felt somehow above her and she always seemed to be trying to win me over which I imagine can't be nice for her; feeling she couldn't be enough. Getting back in contact I can definitely see the lack and strain since becoming closer to people in my own quadra; I've had my first beta st friends this year , it feels great and I realize I shouldn't push so closely for less compatible relationships.
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Supervisors appear to be very selfish to the supervisee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    A supervisor more often than not is correct about the supervisee, but even so, they invalidate the supervisee by using these communication blockers. Some examples include the following.

    One: ADVISING, giving the other person the solution.

    An SEE says to her LSI friend, "The house is always a mess when I come home. I try to talk to my husband but every time I start to talk he just gets up and leaves. I don"t understand! I mean he leaves whenever I open my mouth.". The LSI supervisor, responding with her leading function, offers her advice "maybe it feels like you are nagging him. What you should do is talk with him when he is relaxed maybe after supper or something. Then just talk with him without yelling or screaming or accusing.". In this instance the SEE was simply venting her emotions, she wants to be heard and not be cooly advised about her situation. She knows he is right but does not appreciate the approach.

    Two: MORALIZING; telling others what they should do.

    A confused SLE talks with her ESI cousin,"I feel so guilty. My best friends boyfriend called me last night and he wants just the two of us to go out sometime. I told him yes, but now I don't know what to do." The ESI, seeing the dilema the SLE has walked into offers an answer from her ego block. "The right thing to do is tell your best friend what has happened. It's wrong to go behind her back like this." With this moralizing statement, the SLE feels unsure and unvalidated about about the implications about what she has done. She did not want to hear the ESI message because it tugs at her ethically bereft base functions. Even if the ESI solution and judgment of the SLE actions are correct, she still feels uncomfortable with its implications. Moralizing is a communication blocker the ESI's unwittenly use to invalidate her supervisee, the SLE.

    Three: EXCESSIVE QUESTIONING; closed or irrelevent questions that move the person away from the issue or their feelings.

    Two sisters, an LII and IEE discuss their families. The IEE sighs, "I'm so tired of trying to take care of everybody. My husband, my kids, my mother; everyone seems to need something from me. When do I get time for myself?" The LII quickly and cooly addresses what she believes to be the problem, " Do you ever get a day off? Have you ever tried telling your family "no"? Can you find yourself a good baby sitter? Would your husband mind if you had a housekeeper?" Clearly, the IEE understands she could find solutions to her issues that would change the outlook of getting days off. She feels powerless and disconnected from her base function, Ne, at times like this and wants that validated. Her supervisor sister has done exactly what the IEE does not appreciate at moments like this: asked to many questions that pull the IEE away from her overwhelming feelings and focus instead on "irrelevant" questions asked her LII sister, who herself cannot understand why the IEE puts so much on her plate to begin with. The IEE knows she can handle anything regarding her family, just sometimes it can be a lot. Using her creative Fi function, the IEE is trying to find the source of her unease. The LII sister has used a communication blocker to steer the conversation from what is relevent, the feeling of being overwhelmed, towards the content, or what can be done, which the IEE feels is less important.

    Four: DIVERTING; switching from the other's concerns to your own topic.

    Long time and close coworkers sit down for lunch. The younger of the two, an SLI admits, "I just don't know what to do! I can't eat, I can't sleep, and I can't do anything but think about what my wife is doing since we have separated." His intertype supervisor, the ESE, sees the obvious turmoil his work mate is in, quickly he responds, "It sounds bad but I know that it took me a couple of years to get over that stage after my wife left. It just didn't do me any good to worry about him so I started........". The ESE, in best intentions has moved the topic to himself. This makes the SLI feel unsure about his already confused feelings, which he is normally unaware of to begin with. He wants a chance to discuss HIS predicament because it is weighing heavily on his mind. He knows in his gut things should be addressed because he has slide far away from his base Si by not eating or sleeping, both activities he does not normally avoid. Without his wife in his life, he has few others he can turn to for an open ear and instant validation. To help out his freind, the ESE has tried to "cheer him up" in the present moment by using his confident leading Fe function. This is not the way an SLI wants to resolve his feeling of breavement. He quickly swallows his comments, he needed recognition for verbilizing his feelings in the first place. Although appreciative that the ESE has been in a similar situation, he has been invalidated. He pastes on a smile for his ESE coworker.

    Five: DIAGNOSING; analyzing, psycologizing.

    An ESI neighbor takes the beer offered by an IEE. He sips it slowly and puts the bottle down. "My wife has been really distant lately. The only thing I can think of is that I've started playing ball again. It takes me out of the house a few nights a week. Maybe she doesn't like that." The IEE looks out the window then with wistful and knowning look says to the distraught ESI, "Your problem is that you don't spend enough time with your wife. You should take her out for a nice dinner tonight that would help". The ESI isn't so sure the IEE assesment of his situation is right. Besides hadn't the ESI thought of doing that already? The IEE is invalidating the ESI by psyco-analyzing the ESI and his wife. Who knows what the wife is really thinking or doing? The leading Ne function of the IEE has gotten carried away by opportunities to change the ESI situation by offering the solution of going out for dinner when the IEE lacks critical information, information that the ESI feels the IEE is not privy to as neighbors. The ESI thinks "let the IEE analyze what I do, knowing my wife, she wouldn't even realize I spend much of my day thinking about her wellbeing anyway". The communication blocker of diagnosing is something the IEE does when supervising his ESI neighbor. The ESI feels invalidated, even if she she can agree dinner might be a quick solution to an chronic problem.

    Six: CRITIZING; negative evaluation of the other person.

    The LSI's Mom is an ILE, his supervisor. He seems sullen and quite all through dinner, so she approaches him. He says something has happened at school with his friends. "I feel so bad, I told a secret about my bestfriend to a girl I though I could trust, and now there are rumours about her all over the school." The ILE's Mom can see the obvious remorse her son feels, but responds with habitual excaserbation, "That was really mean of you to tell a secret, you should feel bad." The LSI rarely gets involved in lunch time gossip and ever time he does he ends up getting "in trouble". He often feels unsure about others feelings towards him and usually he is unconcerned with rumours anyway. The ILE has invalidated her LSI son by using her leading function Ne, which is very comfortable imagining all sorts of possible outcomes when revealing a secret. She would have already guessed the secret would get out and become a rumour, even before sharing it. She sees her son struggle with this sort of imagining possible consequences his whole life. She feels she needs to educate him, but has yet again said something that has invalidated his effort. Next time he just won't say anything at all.


    Seven: REASURING; trying to stop the other person from feeling the negative aspect of their situation or concern.

    "I am worried about going back to Toronto tomorrow, I'm scared of flying, " an ESE confides in her IEI friend. The IEI replies, "Oh, it will be okay. Planes are really safe now. You don't have to worry about anything!" The ESE knows her IEI friend is right, and she is always amazed by how sure her IEI friend is of what is going to happen tomorrow. She still however, feels worried. She has been invalidated by her IEI, who could have instead offered her to help pack her suitcases and babysit the dog. The supervisee in this case admires her IEI friends optimism and appreciates the attempt to reasure her worries. Somehow though, it seems lopsided, how does the IEI KNOW the plane won't crash?!

    Eight: ARGUING; attempting to convice the other with an appeal to facts of logic.

    A younger rookie coworker finds partner in the coffee room. Being a chatty type SEI, he complains: "The boss totally jumped down my throat today. I was half and hour late for work, that's all, half an hour late and this is the way she treats me!" Quick to offer his two cents, the LSE intertype supervisor responds. "Well, it sounds like you are at fault here. After all you are the one who was late for work". The SEI replies, "yeah but....", trailing off, he sees the LSE is right. But the SEI wasn't looking to argue with his boss and his coworker! He is invalidated and feels the LSE will just argue him anyway, with that straighforward leading Te, "why even bother?" the SEI thinks.

    Nine: WITHDRAWING; implies unacceptable ;leading the other person to believe that their problems are insignificant and that negative emotions should be avoided.

    *will come back to this later to finish off and edit and spell check (which I know is terrible).
    this is a very insightful breakdown. cudos for posting this

  22. #142
    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Like I mentioned in my other post from a couple days ago, I've found supervision to be a kind of relationship "trap", both in my own experience as well as seeing and hearing about others' experiences with supervision.

    Don't read too literally into the intertype descriptions. First of all, things get lost in translation from Russian. Secondly, there is only so much you can truly put into words, which really must be experienced to fully understand. Thirdly, the actual manifestations of an intertype really depends on the circumstances in which you are interacting, how closely you have to work, what does your surroundings compel you to talk about, who is in charge of whom (especially for supervision).

    In my case, I had a co-worker who is a suspected LII. We got along well for a year. A whole year. Things went sour when we had to work on a project together. Before that we actually talked a lot and enjoyed each others' conversations, as long as it had nothing to do with work. After the falling out, I realized that keeping to non-work-related conversations was a must when it came to relating to her, as I no longer trusted her with work convos, and she got deeply offended if i cut off all convo with her. Luckily I no longer have to work with her. My overall sentiments coming out of that experience though was a feeling of betrayal, disappointment because I'd thought we were good friends previously,

    The issue with supervision is that you share an ego function, and a superid function. So you relate closely over those things, you see yourselves as such similar people, you bond over that. Furthermore, your demonstrative function feeds the other person's superid as well, so even though you might not value that particular function, your supervisor/ee really likes you for it. T(it's mutual, not one-sided). Mind you the communication will still be fraught with some misunderstandings, just because of the "delivery" format, but you like each other enough and do have shared values such that you do end up deciphering.

    It's not until circumstances require you to exchange info that engages the function that is your POLR (if you are the supervisee) that the badness truly starts. So the friendship could last for a while until that happens.

    Then, you get the POLR hit, perhaps get annoyed/irritant, perhaps start engaging your role function because of that, which happens to be your supervisor's POLR. So much like in conflict, BOTH parties end up getting POLR hits. (again, mutual, not one sided, just slightly different process than in conflict, manifesting differently).

    In other words, supervision and conflict and both bad relationships. Some say that supervision is actually worse than conflict, and I can definitely appreciate why... it's insidiously bad. It creeps up on you after you've bonded, and that can be more painful than just knowing right off the bat (perhaps even just subconsciously) that you dont mesh well with someone
    Well just to clarify, i retyped alpha recently so this person was probably not LII. Either supervision or conflict works though, for the intertype. It was terrible.

  23. #143
    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    To validate someones experinces feels like a real gift when you are on the receiving end. Validation, IMO, is a key component of a supervision relationship. The supervised may have a hard time feeling validated when the supervisor instructs them about some issue and because the supervisee process, or actions was not validated they may feel that the relationship itself is lopsided. This effect is amplified if the supervisee lacks self-reflection enough to recognize the inherent personality imbalance. They may see there was a "correct" way of viewing that situation, or behaving in that event and by nature of ones super-ego weaknesses are effected either positively or negatively depending on individual worldview and outlook. This lopsidedness is felt by the supervisee because hi/her psyche perhaps does value the supervisors most used Information Elements, starting with the leading function, yet may lack sufficient resolve and life skills to adequately implement mastery over these information elements.

    The supervisor invalidates the supervisee by using communication blockers. Each communication blocker is different for each sociotype ( so this is why it is such a opportunity to read posts on this website because it is a chance to get into the heads of other sociotype, without all the real world messy observations of intertype relationships that are affected by me the viewer).

    A supervisor more often than not is correct about the supervisee, but even so, they invalidate the supervisee by using these communication blockers.

    Some examples include the following.

    1.) ADVISING; giving the other person the solution.

    An SEE says to her LSI friend, "The house is always a mess when I come home. I try to talk to my husband but every time I start to talk he just gets up and leaves. I don"t understand! I mean he leaves whenever I open my mouth.". The LSI supervisor, responding with her leading function, offers her advice "maybe it feels like you are nagging him. What you should do is talk with him when he is relaxed maybe after supper or something. Then just talk with him without yelling or screaming or accusing. Then make sure you have laundry baskets set up for certain clothes, whites in one, colours in another. All shoes come off before he enters the stairwell......" In this instance the SEE was simply venting her emotions, she wants to be heard and not be advised about her situation. She knows he is right but does not appreciate the approach.

    2.) MORALIZING; telling others what they should do.

    A confused SLE talks with her ESI cousin,"I feel so guilty. My best friends boyfriend called me last night and he wants just the two of us to go out sometime. I told him yes, but now I don't know what to do." The ESI, seeing the dilema the SLE has walked into offers an answer from her ego block. "The right thing to do is tell your best friend what has happened. It's wrong to go behind her back like this." With this moralizing statement, the SLE feels unsure and unvalidated about about the implications about what she has done. She did not want to hear the ESI message because it tugs at her ethically bereft base functions. Even if the ESI solution and judgment of the SLE actions are correct she still feels uncomfortable with its implications. Moralizing is a communication blocker the ESI's unwittenly use to invalidate her supervisee, the SLE.

    3.) EXCESSIVE QUESTIONING; closed or irrelevent questions that move the person away from the issue or their feelings.

    Two sisters, an LII and IEE discuss their families. The IEE sighs, "I'm so tired of trying to take care of everybody. My husband, my kids, my mother; everyone seems to need something from me. When do I get time for myself?" The LII quickly and cooly addresses what she believes to be the problem, " Do you ever get a day off? Have you ever tried telling your family "no"? Can you find yourself a good baby sitter? Would your husband mind if you had a housekeeper?" Clearly, the IEE understands she could find solutions to her issues that would change the outlook of getting days off. She feels powerless and disconnected from her base function Ne at times like this and wants that validated. Her supervisor sister has done exactly what the IEE does not appreciate at moments like this: asked to many questions that pull the IEE away from her overwhelming feelings and focus instead on "irrelevant" questions asked by her LII sister, who herself cannot understand why the IEE puts so much on her plate to begin with. The IEE knows she can handle anything regarding her family, just sometimes it can be a lot. Using her creative Fi function, the IEE is trying to find the source of her unease. The LII sister has used a communication blocker to steer the conversation from what is relevent, the feeling of being overwhelmed, towards the content, or what can be done, which the IEE feels is less important.

    4.) DIVERTING; switching from the other's concerns to your own topic.

    Long time and close coworkers sit down for lunch. The younger of the two, an SLI admits, "I just don't know what to do! I can't eat, I can't sleep, and I can't do anything but think about what my wife is doing since we have separated." His intertype supervisor, the ESE, sees the obvious turmoil his work mate is in, quickly he responds, "It sounds bad but I know that it took me a couple of years to get over that stage after my wife left. It just didn't do me any good to worry about him SO I started to blah blah blah blah blah........". The ESE, in best intentions has moved the topic to himself. This makes the SLI feel unsure about his already confused feelings, which he is normally unaware of to begin with. He wants a chance to discuss HIS predicament because it is weighing heavily on his mind. He knows in his gut things should be addressed because he has slide far away from his base Si by not eating or sleeping, both activities he does not normally avoid. Without his wife in his life, he has few others he can turn to for an open ear and instant validation. To help out his friend, the ESE has tried to "cheer him up" in the present moment by using his confident leading Fe function. This is not the way an SLI wants to resolve his feeling of breavement. He quickly swallows his comments, he needed recognition for verbilizing his feelings in the first place. Although appreciative that the ESE has been in a similar situation, he has been invalidated. He pastes on a mechanical smile for his ESE coworker.

    5.) DIAGNOSING; analyzing, psycologizing.

    An ESI neighbor takes the beer offered by an IEE. He sips it slowly and puts the bottle down. "My wife has been really distant lately. The only thing I can think of is that I've started playing ball again. It takes me out of the house a few nights a week. Maybe she doesn't like that." The IEE looks out the window then with wistful and knowning look says to the distraught ESI, "Your problem is that you don't spend enough time with your wife. You should take her out for a nice dinner tonight that would help. She feels as though you don't care enough for her to make romantic gestures anymore". The ESI isn't so sure the IEE assesment of his situation is right. Besides hadn't the ESI thought of doing that already? The IEE is invalidating the ESI by psyco-analyzing the ESI and his wife. Who knows what the wife is really thinking or doing? The leading Ne function of the IEE has gotten carried away by opportunities to change the ESI situation by offering the solution of going out for dinner when the IEE lacks critical information, information that the ESI feels the IEE is not privy to as neighbors. The ESI thinks "let the IEE analyze what I do, knowing my wife, she wouldn't even realize I spend much of my day thinking about her wellbeing anyway". The communication blocker of diagnosing is something the IEE does when supervising his ESI neighbor. The ESI feels invalidated, even if she she can agree dinner might be a quick solution to an chronic problem.

    6.) CRITICIZING; negative evaluation of the other person.

    The LSI's Mom is an ILE, his supervisor. He seems sullen and quite all through dinner, so she approaches him. He says something has happened at school with his friends. "I feel so bad, I told a secret about my bestfriend to a girl I though I could trust, and now there are rumours about her all over the school." The ILE's Mom can see the obvious remorse her son feels, but responds with habitual excaserbation, "That was really mean of you to tell a secret, you should feel bad." The LSI rarely gets involved in lunch time gossip and ever time he does he ends up getting "in trouble". He often feels unsure about others feelings towards him and usually he is unconcerned with rumours anyway. The ILE has invalidated her LSI son by using her leading function Ne, which is very comfortable imagining all sorts of possible outcomes when revealing a secret. She would have already guessed the secret would get out and become a rumour, even before sharing it. She sees her son struggle with this sort of imagining possible consequences his whole life. She feels she needs to educate him, but has yet again said something that has invalidated his effort. Next time he just won't say anything at all.


    7.) REASSURING; trying to stop the other person from feeling the negative aspect of their situation or concern.

    "I am worried about going back to Toronto tomorrow, I'm scared of flying, " an ESE confides in her IEI friend. The IEI replies, "Oh, it will be okay. Planes are really safe now. You don't have to worry about anything!" The ESE knows her IEI friend is right, and she is always amazed by how sure her IEI friend is of what is going to happen tomorrow. She still however, feels worried. She has been invalidated by her IEI, who could have instead offered her to help pack her suitcases and babysit the dog. The supervisee in this case admires her IEI friends optimism and appreciates the attempt to reasure her worries. Somehow though, it seems lopsided, how does the IEI KNOW the plane won't crash?!

    8.) ARGUING; attempting to convice the other with an appeal to facts of logic.

    A younger rookie coworker finds partner in the coffee room. Being a chatty type SEI, he complains: "The boss totally jumped down my throat today. I was half and hour late for work, that's all, half an hour late and this is the way she treats me!" Quick to offer his two cents, the LSE intertype supervisor responds. "Well, it sounds like you are at fault here. After all you are the one who was late for work". The SEI replies, "yeah but....", trailing off, he sees the LSE is right. But the SEI wasn't looking to argue with his boss and his coworker! He is invalidated and feels the LSE will just argue him anyway, with that straighforward leading Te, "why even bother?" the SEI thinks.

    Nine: WITHDRAWING; implies unacceptable ;leading the other person to believe that their problems are insignificant and that negative emotions should be avoided.

    *will come back to this later
    bumping this because I am looking for discussion or feedback.

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