Type me

[Beautiful sky]

Idealism in an SLE and LSE is different, in my opinion.

The way idealism manifests in LSE is the total perfection of whatever skill, art, or goal which they choose to pursue. Their idealism is centered more on the individual and it matters little where the LSE and others stand in the social hierarchy.

SLE idealism is different. I don't know how to say it without sounding bias, so I'll say it how I see it. Their idealism is focused more on becoming better than "the rest", to be grandeur, a symbol of greatness. It matters where the SLE and others stand in the social hierarchy (and they also happen to be very aware of it).

Both LSE and the SLE will pursue goals of honour, integrity and so on, but will have different reasons for doing so.

I agree with what you wrote, thank you.

@Pinocchio
Your typings only confuse people because you offer so much bad information.

Perfection through the eyes of ESTj is setting standards that they prefer to reach with regards to the tasks they prefer to take on; this perfectionism can allow them to consume many hours working on a single task trying to cover many details of that task.

[electric sheep]

she´s so blatantly 2w1... reminds me a lot of my mother. I´m quite used to their 'truths' and then these truths proving to be incorrect.

Heyyyy we have something in common

but you kinda remind me of Rasputin. He's another ESTj 1w9, although he's less "grating" probably since he's sp/so. You both seem like you're constantly struggling with something, I dunno it's just this vibe I get.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-male]

....too idealistic, SLE and LSE are on opposite pole considering this: SLEs are very idealistic, they are Sensory, of course, so don't think about daydreaming, but about beauty, the "perfect ..." - where this perfect can be about beauty, style, soncept, honor and things like that. Note that LSEs are the opposite, they are practical and find such things laughable and ridiculous.

Yep Beta ST and Delta ST are different

Beta ST's value and as a source of strength
and they are in search of and

Delta ST's value and as a source of strength
and they are in search of and

Beta ST's are about systems, analysis, structured logic, force, externally focused and concrete, decisive and realistic, agendas. They are decisive, quick to act, focus on the realistic result, utilizing a logically structured agenda. Their realism and action is focused on agendas and results.

Beta ST's are after this emotionality and mysticism intertwined. Fe emotionality is based more on the vibe or feeling of a situation. Ni is a sort of intuition of time. They try to see the multiple meanings and this sort of mystical perception of things which ties together what would otherwise be seperate distinct vibes and feelings. Beta ST's have trouble providing this meaning to their lifes, they are realistic and decisive, but they value it when they encounter such things. Beta ST's are decisive and action oriented, but sometimes feel they lack a meaningful cause to their life.

Contrast this with Delta ST's

Delta ST's are about facts, data, statistics, internally focused on their sensations, past experiences, and are efficient/minimalistic with the effort they use to do things. They are judicious, minimalistic, stoic, grounded, and factual. Their realism is centered around looking at past experiences, outcomes, data and drawing conclusions from this. They are very minimalistic and find over-the-top things to be stupid rather than energizing.

Delta ST's are after this and mixture. emotionality is based more on relationships and people and perceived values and meanings that are internal to people and communities. perception is based very much around possibilities and oppurtunities. Fi and Ne mixtures usually result in humanistic values. Concerned around people's inner value/meaning and their untapped possibilities and oppurtunities. The realistic and stoic Delta ST's worry so much about their past and the most likely outcomes, they forget about people and their potentials. They crave this and the and mixture provides it.

Notice that Delta and Beta Quadras contain both ST and NF Clubs....

The other Quadras Alpha and Gamma contain the NT and SF Clubs....

The NTs are related to the NFs via Intuition and the STs via Thinking

Alpha NT's and Beta ST's have conflict but mesh together in terms of a Fe-based utilitarianism, the Beta ST's see the Alpha NT's as weak and lazy and not decisive enough, the Alphas see the Beta ST's as harsh, forceful, and too immediately focused.

Alpha NT's and Beta NF's have conflict but mesh together in terms of Fe-based imagination and abstraction, the Beta NF's see the Alpha NT's as lacking a mystical quality to their imagination, the Alpha NT's see the Beta NF's as overly mytical and engimatic and not thoughtful of the possible outcomes to their abstract beliefs.

Gamma NT's will mesh with Delta STs and NFs in an analogous fashion using the common function Fi and the common dictomy (Thinking or Intuition)

The SFs are related to the STs via Sensing and the NFs via Feeling.

etc etc run through the same thoughts analogous with this....

There is a structure which connects all these types together in a matrix....

I should write this down!

Anyways......

This should help illustrate the differences between Delta STs and Beta STs for Airborne.

[Beautiful sky]

Delta ST's are after this and mixture. emotionality is based more on relationships and people and perceived values and meanings that are internal to people and communities. perception is based very much around possibilities and oppurtunities. Fi and Ne mixtures usually result in humanistic values. Concerned around people's inner value/meaning and their untapped possibilities and oppurtunities. The realistic and stoic Delta ST's worry so much about their past and the most likely outcomes, they forget about people and their potentials. They crave this and the and mixture provides it.

Dear

This is what I did for you in asking you to be kind and considerate with regard to your behavior towards Mariella.

In here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...1-post144.html

[Airman]

Heyyyy we have something in common

but you kinda remind me of Rasputin. He's another ESTj 1w9, although he's less "grating" probably since he's sp/so. You both seem like you're constantly struggling with something, I dunno it's just this vibe I get.

what do we have in common?

abt Rasputin, might be that being 1w9 is not easy. in the enneagram it´s called 'the idealist'.

it´s a struggle between what IS (reality) and what could or should be (a kind of another version of reality we think we should live in). This creates resentment which turns to anger which turns to sadness and at some point it mobilizes the 1w9 to act, but most of the time his actions are aimed at 'making this or that better' in order that it gets closer to his idealistic views.

and of course, if you fight against what is (reality, the current world) you´re not fighting a possible fight. you´re fighting a crazy fight and you have around 6 billion people plus nature against you, lol. so this can be very straining for 1w9s, at times it´s just sadness and total disappointment with things. at others it´s a mobilizing rage which can scare the shit out of anyone because it´s too intense. at others it´s just apathy and indifference, 'it´s all fucked up anyway'.

but your feeling is totally right. E1 especially 1w9s are too idealistic. since the world is not idealistic and not how it should be, there is a constant struggle with reality.

[Beautiful sky]

This is Rasputin's self typing thread


http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...entj-estj.html

[Creepy-male]

This is what I did for you in asking you to be kind and considerate with regard to your behavior towards Mariella.

Yea I understand that, but being more Alpha/Beta focused, this easily slips past me, its not like types with the Fe-valued emotionality really don't appreciate Fi, it just works its way into our feelings in a more indirect sense than those with an Fi makeup.

Alpha NTs just get caught up in the mood (Fe) of the intellectual conversation and debate (NT) and the Fi considerations take a back seat. Its not personal, Fi-types sometimes can get offended very easily at un-courtly behavior, when the other person doesn't really mean any offense by their un-courtly behavior. Fe-types usually look to surface clues to tell when an offense isn't really intended. Fi-types look to cultural, personal, and relationship identity to make this call. Ultimately both are correct, but sometimes its a little harder for one type to pick up on what to another is almost automatic.

You and me share Ne and Si, so essentially we see the same stuff, but the conclusions we draw from them are complete poles, yours is emotionally Fi, mine is emotionally Fe, yours is intellectual Te, mine is intellectual Ti. Your feeling in general is more emphasized, my logic in general is more emphasized.

[Beautiful sky]

Yea I understand that, but being more Alpha/Beta focused, this easily slips past me, its not like types with the Fe-valued emotionality really don't appreciate Fi, it just works its way into our feelings in a more indirect sense than those with an Fi makeup.

Alpha NTs just get caught up in the mood (Fe) of the intellectual conversation and debate (NT) and the Fi considerations take a back seat. Its not personal, Fi-types sometimes can get offended very easily at un-courtly behavior, when the other person doesn't really mean any offense by their un-courtly behavior.

Yes it does and that is why I also rushed to put it in this thread because I felt that you did not catch that for yourself ....

We most certainly can.

[Airman]

Yep Beta ST and Delta ST are different

Beta ST's value and as a source of strength
and they are in search of and

Delta ST's value and as a source of strength
and they are in search of and

Beta ST's are about systems, analysis, structured logic, force, externally focused and concrete, decisive and realistic, agendas. They are decisive, quick to act, focus on the realistic result, utilizing a logically structured agenda. Their realism and action is focused on agendas and results.

Beta ST's are after this emotionality and mysticism intertwined. Fe emotionality is based more on the vibe or feeling of a situation. Ni is a sort of intuition of time. They try to see the multiple meanings and this sort of mystical perception of things which ties together what would otherwise be seperate distinct vibes and feelings. Beta ST's have trouble providing this meaning to their lifes, they are realistic and decisive, but they value it when they encounter such things. Beta ST's are decisive and action oriented, but sometimes feel they lack a meaningful cause to their life.

Contrast this with Delta ST's

Delta ST's are about facts, data, statistics, internally focused on their sensations, past experiences, and are efficient/minimalistic with the effort they use to do things. They are judicious, minimalistic, stoic, grounded, and factual. Their realism is centered around looking at past experiences, outcomes, data and drawing conclusions from this. They are very minimalistic and find over-the-top things to be stupid rather than energizing.

Delta ST's are after this and mixture. emotionality is based more on relationships and people and perceived values and meanings that are internal to people and communities. perception is based very much around possibilities and oppurtunities. Fi and Ne mixtures usually result in humanistic values. Concerned around people's inner value/meaning and their untapped possibilities and oppurtunities. The realistic and stoic Delta ST's worry so much about their past and the most likely outcomes, they forget about people and their potentials. They crave this and the and mixture provides it.

Notice that Delta and Beta Quadras contain both ST and NF Clubs....

The other Quadras Alpha and Gamma contain the NT and SF Clubs....

The NTs are related to the NFs via Intuition and the STs via Thinking

Alpha NT's and Beta ST's have conflict but mesh together in terms of a Fe-based utilitarianism, the Beta ST's see the Alpha NT's as weak and lazy and not decisive enough, the Alphas see the Beta ST's as harsh, forceful, and too immediately focused.

Alpha NT's and Beta NF's have conflict but mesh together in terms of Fe-based imagination and abstraction, the Beta NF's see the Alpha NT's as lacking a mystical quality to their imagination, the Alpha NT's see the Beta NF's as overly mytical and engimatic and not thoughtful of the possible outcomes to their abstract beliefs.

Gamma NT's will mesh with Delta STs and NFs in an analogous fashion using the common function Fi and the common dictomy (Thinking or Intuition)

The SFs are related to the STs via Sensing and the NFs via Feeling.

etc etc run through the same thoughts analogous with this....

There is a structure which connects all these types together in a matrix....

I should write this down!

Anyways......

This should help illustrate the differences between Delta STs and Beta STs for Airborne.

Thanks a lot. It did. There are interesting differences.

I find this totally true regarding myself:

Beta ST's have trouble providing this meaning to their lifes, they are realistic and decisive, but they value it when they encounter such things. Beta ST's are decisive and action oriented, but sometimes feel they lack a meaningful cause to their life.

I´m very action oriented and decisive, still I get into apathy and inaction a lot because I feel a lack of a meaningful cause for which to fight. I am being inclined to thinking I might be Beta ST but still open...I will wait for some long weeks or months and somehow it will just come to me. I´m not being able to see my type but I think at some point it´ll just flash in my mind.

[Beautiful sky]

You and me share Ne and Si, so essentially we see the same stuff, but the conclusions we draw from them are complete poles, yours is emotionally Fi, mine is emotionally Fe, yours is intellectual Te, mine is intellectual Ti. Your feeling in general is more emphasized, my logic in general is more emphasized.

Absolutely, so because of this, it is a struggle for us to clearly understand one another.

[Creepy-male]

Absolutely, so because of this, it is a struggle for us to clearly understand one another.

Thats why you should work on your Ti

[Beautiful sky]

Thats why you should work on your Ti

What a terrible (just my Fi) joke, I try, it can not be as good as yours...

[Creepy-male]

What a terrible (just my Fi) joke, I try, it can not be as good as yours...

Don't worry, I believe in you.

[The Greeter]

Nope, that's not suggested syntactically, nor it was my intended meaning.

Sure, maybe to you.

No, things are pretty clear: LSEs avoid point 2, and that was my initial argument, while you misrepresented it as implying the sense of point 1. You used a fallacy of accident. You assume that I excluded things that are useful but also products of passion which I didn't even address.

Are there exceptions to that? By definition I may have committed a fallacy of accident, but the exceptions are not so obvious due to the way you present your argument. Perhaps you should also take responsibility for your words.

You did it, why are you trying to drag me in?

I stated that they were both ideal in their own ways. You stated that LSEs were not because of some reason and that an example of "idealism" is "nobility". I retorted by telling you how an LSE would be compelled to be "noble" (the intention described was just used to support the notion that LSE can be noble, which is more effective than just stating "LSEs are noble" without any context). You brought up the differences in intention between SLE and LSE, put focus on it and used it to support your initial argument.

Not at all. I put this idealism on the nature of Beta quadra, in contrast with Delta. Nothing to to with Irrationality in what I said concerning this, that was your invention why do you continue to put words in my mouth and play the gentleman?! I didn't not say absolutely anything about Irrationality.

No, you did not say anything about irrationality. Hence why I stated at the end that it was "slightly irrelevant". It was comment on the observed divergence in our opinions regarding intentions.

The Greeter: our discussion ends here.

Okay.

[Airman]

@Felafel : thanks for ruling out ISTP... I also think it very unlikely to be ISTP.

@Pinnochio: What type do you see Germany as a whole belonging to? I had the impression of either ESTJ or ISTJ. Anyway, since it felt so much like home to me, and I loved it - contrarily to Italy and Switzerland - I think that it´s either my dual type or my own type, or a very similar one.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Airman]

Yes, lol, I reminded my two trips to Germany.
There´s definitely a strong beta thing about them, and also Rationals, I agree totally.
This stuff about changing your mind and the person throttling angrily is very much representative of Germany.
I once on a ski station in Austria got lost going down the mountain, and ended up following trails, but one of the trails passed right through a very steep spot where snowboarders were using since it had 'virgin snow', the snow wasn´t lowered or leveled. As I passed I noticed people shouting at me in german then a guy just flew over my head with that snowboard and fell on the snow some meters below me, then looked at me and screamed some stuff I couldn´t understand, very angry. I was glad though he didn´t seem to have broken something, he seemed to have been able to take off ,fly past me just above my head not hitting me and fall still intact. I just kept on going, thinking 'wtf it is them who are wrong, this is not a listed descent, they´re off track here, fuck them'.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I wonder if anyone still thinks you're not ESTj.

[Slacker]

I am not delicate, and I am not a child. I don't need you telling people how to talk to me. That is sure behavior fitting of an over-the-top caretaker ESE.

[Slacker]

I'm not telling him anything; it's in his type, it's in our dual pair interaction. I am not bathing him so no that's not really caretaking. I am reinforcing a positive behavior which gets him to feel good about himself.

No, that's bullshit again.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I am not delicate, and I am not a child. I don't need you telling people how to talk to me. That is sure behavior fitting of an over-the-top caretaker ESE.

No, that's bullshit again.

This is more fitting.

[Airman]

Thank you for being nice to Mariella!
You're very sweet.

when was I nice to Mariella, talking about Germany?

[Pa3s]

If anyone is interested, I would say that the stereotype of Germany is definitely ISTj. There is probably a fair amount of them in the country, and this is the way foreigners see us. These rules which are all around as you said don't seem odd to me, it's just normal if you live here.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Pa3s]

Btw, I can't really tell the difference between East DE and West, even if someone living there can, IMO they are almost identical, despite the fact that the areas were separated for so long.

You've come to an intersting point, because this is something we often discuss as well. We were separated for a long time, that's right, and this is also what caused the differences. Due to the lack of almost everything in the former east, the people used to help each other much more than in the "capitalistic" west, that's a fact. Furthermore, because of the political ideology and the propaganda, there was a high emphasis on the social(istic) life in the GDR. Even today, West Germans are perceived as arrogant smartasses and East Germans as whiny, unemployed people. There was a quarrel some weeks ago where somebody marked the residence of a job applicant with a "(-) Ossi" note. (meaning: negative point because of East German origin) The court decided that this is lawful, because East Germans can't be seen as seperated ethnic group.

But even if there are differences between East and West Germans, they are disappearing more and more because the younger generation grew up in the united Germany. The tendency is that we absorb the western attitude. (What else? Germany is a western country after all.)

Btw: I was born 15 days before the German reunion took place, that would make me an Eastern German. :wink: Of course, I didn't witness the GDR actively but I'm one of the last ones I guess.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Airman]

nice that some german came up and said what he thinks of Germany´s type.
i do see ISTJ all over the place, very much so.
my uncle who´s american is an ISTJ. his father moved to germany when he was 3 years old and went back to the USA when he was 19, so he speaks german fluently. if you look at him, first thing that comes to mind is "this is a german", although he likes the USA more than Germany. fairly tall, redhead with a short hair, very white skin and gleaming blue eyes. and when he speaks (I´m sorry if this sounds offensive, it´s not meant) the thing I am reminded the most if of an SS officer giving orders or checking if everything is running ok, lol.

[Airman]

btw, has anyone seen the movie 'downfall'?
that is so ISTJ.
I can´t see how someone doesn´t see ISTJ in nazi germany - and so post-nazi Germany, even though culture has changed.
the discipline, tone of voice, it´s all so very much ISTJ. it´s not as smooth as ESTJ, it´s more mechanical, commanding and powerful, very Beta.

[Pa3s]

You know how I test a Thuringian for self-awareness? I say "bratwurst" with a low and mostly unintelligible voice, if he suddenly straightens his back, takes a tensed position and says "aah, Bratwurst!" with a strong and resonant voice (you know like those samurais in Kurosawa) it means that he's a real Thuringian. Do you use to do that?

lol, no actualy not. Even if we have the best Bratwurst and barbeques it's a dish which is common in many regions of Germany. You know, the most people (and I also think many Americans) think of Germany when they see Bavarians... Lederhosen, Tyrolean hats, large beer glasses and so on. But there are so many different people there and all are kind of unique around the country. Every region has it's own peculiarities but the Bavarians are probably the most prominent.

my uncle who´s american is an ISTJ. his father moved to germany when he was 3 years old and went back to the USA when he was 19, so he speaks german fluently. if you look at him, first thing that comes to mind is "this is a german", although he likes the USA more than Germany. fairly tall, redhead with a short hair, very white skin and gleaming blue eyes. and when he speaks (I´m sorry if this sounds offensive, it´s not meant) the thing I am reminded the most if of an SS officer giving orders or checking if everything is running ok, lol.

Yeah, the Nazi era is a somewhat sensitive subject here. I believe if you grow up in a certain country, you also absorb parts of the country's attitude. Just because you're used to behave like this.

btw, has anyone seen the movie 'downfall'?
that is so ISTJ.
I can´t see how someone doesn´t see ISTJ in nazi germany - and so post-nazi Germany, even though culture has changed.
the discipline, tone of voice, it´s all so very much ISTJ. it´s not as smooth as ESTJ, it´s more mechanical, commanding and powerful, very Beta.

Well, I think the young generation was also somewhat raised to behave in this way. They needed instruments for his war machinery, no thinkers or philosophers. He wanted boys who grow up to serve as soldiers and girls who keep the families going and do nothing else.

[Marie84]

Additionally, I disagree with your definition of "perfectionism". Perfection is not insisting that something is correct; perfection is being able to master something. An LSE that has prematurely assumed they have perfected something may insist that they are correct, but at that point, they feel they have reached their ideal (which is, essentially, where Ne comes in to correct this).

I would think assuming things to be correct is in contention with the use of Te, as in there needs to be some sort of factual information to present something as being correct in the eyes of a Te (and Fi too, to a degree).
Assumptions on accuracy seems to be more aligned to Ti

for comparison
Ti in LII/LSI-> Introverted logic - Wikisocion
Te in LSE/LIE-> Extroverted logic - Wikisocion

[Aiss]

I would think assuming things to be correct is in contention with the use of Te, as in there needs to be some sort of factual information to present something as being correct in the eyes of a Te (and Fi too, to a degree).
Assumptions on accuracy seems to be more aligned to Ti

for comparison
Ti in LII/LSI-> Introverted logic - Wikisocion
Te in LSE/LIE-> Extroverted logic - Wikisocion

The problem could be in what Te and Ti perceive as "correct", or more universally, "right". Fe and Fi don't lack this perception either, but it's easier to distinguish since it isn't explicit.

[Airman]

I´m more sure I´m ESTJ because I have Ti as an Ignoring function.
I often wonder what type of people take all this socionics stuff so seriously like many here do, and value it that much.
I understand a lot the limitations of such logical systems, they only go up to a certain point. And most times see them as useless preferring to use Te instead.

[Airman]

this is why I consider for myself both Delta STs :

Image:symbol_p.gif as a base (1st) function (LIE and LSE)

Extroverted logic as base function is manifested as a need to accumulate factual information, also from external sources such as books, second-hand information, etc, on matters of personal interest or of professional activity. This also gives these types confidence on being well-informed on the same matters, which enables them to enter arguments related to them with confidence on their knowledge, which may come across as arrogance to others. Another manifestation is an evaluation of external reality - work activities, world events, finances, procedures, personal relationships, conversations - from the point of view of factual accuracy and "making sense" and efficiency. It leads to an inclination to be proactive in increasing the efficiency and reasonableness of the external world, as well as a sense of self-worth connected on being involved and productive in activities seen as useful, profitable, or that increase one's knowledge base. To give out information that the individual knows not to be factually accurate is disturbing and avoided as much as possible.


Image:symbol_p.gif as a creative (2nd) function (ILI and SLI)

It is manifested as a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere. A view of the external environment being efficient, reasonable, and making sense is essential to their well-being and sense of inner peace, but they do not feel a pressing need for being proactive or productive themselves in that area.

[Airman]

LSE since this fits better:

Si as a creative (2nd) function (ESE and LSE)

The individual is naturally good at organizing relaxing activities and recreation and making sure people are calm and enjoying themselves, but displays this behavior and skill when he sees a specific need for it rather than doing it automatically, all the time. The individual does not place emphasis on being calm and balanced all the time, as opposed to those with Si as a leading function.

The individual is attuned to people's tastes and personal preferences and likes to do things for or give things to friends and family members that will cause them to enjoy themselves and gain pleasure. For example, creating a comfortable, clean, and spacious setting in the home, taking them out to do something they enjoy, or finding opportunities and people with whom they can pursue their hobbies.

[Airman]

I met an Irish guy on saturday/sunday morning at a bar/club nearby.
This guy and I began to talk while drinking, very nice guy.
One thing is that we were talking a lot when the sun came up we went to one of the kiosks on the beach and kept the conversation. The guy had some cocaine and wanted to do it. Then we went to the sand, away from possible police cars which pass nearby, and as we talked, I was drinking he was snorting his stuff, he said after a few minutes he was bothered by the sunshine. He asked 'aren´t you?' and I replied 'no, actually not'.

I was reminded of that guy when I read about Si as dominant function. The guy was so uncomfortable with the beggining of the morning sun he went to his hotel. I was there kept drinking a few beers more then went home.

I guess it depends but he was probably ISTP and myself ESTJ, somehow people from same quadra attract each other, I already noticed it. For him, it was 'right' to sniff cocaine because it felt good. I usually attract this type of person who have a 'what feels good is right' attitude, don´t know why but speculate probably because we´re Deltas, and STs, so we share a lot in common.

[Blaze]

I´m more sure I´m ESTJ because I have Ti as an Ignoring function.
I often wonder what type of people take all this socionics stuff so seriously like many here do, and value it that much.
I understand a lot the limitations of such logical systems, they only go up to a certain point. And most times see them as useless preferring to use Te instead.

hey man. don't fuck with my flexible system, it's gold. gold i tell you.

[redbaron]

hey man. don't fuck with my flexible system, it's gold. gold i tell you.

[UDP]

Airborne, both the LSE and SLE will appreciate poetry at the same level overall. I think it is generally intuitives that enjoy poetry, but that is not to say sensors do not.

I am currently reading some poetry myself, which I enjoy immensely. The poet, though, was introduced to me by an LSE.

I've written poetry.