The examples you quoted in your OPs were rather generalized personality traits that anyone with any type can have. I think when it comes to those who are constantly switching their type, they are focusing too much on surface personality traits, which Socionics doesn't claim causation to, instead of their thought-processes, which is what Socionics is directly concerned with.
Yes, exactly. Thats what I mean about you relating to these things VERY superfically, I dont think you relly understand what these elements are yet.Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky
As far as writing this thread goes, my point still stands. Regardless of whether you were explaining or defending an SLE would not take the time to write pages upon pages doing this. Same goes for the rules thing, I wasnt asking really in the sense of a sincere question. I was asking it in the sense that it gave me a WTF reaction that you would think this is indicative of SLE. You do realize that what you are saying is a part of what IEI provide for SLE right? Why would an SLE be reminding other people of breaking rules, they generally let people do whatever they want & are too busy breaking them theirselves.
Another little thing is how you constantly keep clarifying
"Not explaining but defending"
"Im not trying to be anything"
"it's not so much reminding them, it's explaining it to them"
Its stuff like this that points you away from SLE. This is not how SLEs react to what they would perceive as being misrepresented, the tone would change and it wouldnt come out like this. Regardless of your intent, this sounds like a justification to me. Theres a nitpickiness over words here that is not evident of SLE.
Its little stuff like this that your posting history are filled with that indicate otherwise. As far as beta values, its abit lengthy to explain and I have to get going soon. Im sure you can pull up a post or two. Betas to me have this energy, one of a particular strength and force that is very distinct to me. Impactful? I guess you could call it. A certain humor as well. I dont see this in you at all and really have trouble seeing how you would dualize an IEI. The examples you have given thus far have been generic and is not how this duality manifests IME
(I have checked out a couple of posts where you discussed this on another site)
Joy, I understand that as a 3 this will probably be a little more difficult for you. But dont make the mistake of mistyping yourself. I am definitely sure you arent SLE. Its just not possible.
Look into the other types.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
Good metaphor says I.
Argh. I don't want to be negative, 'cause I like you and we've gotten on well in every forum conversation we've had (that I can remember), but, yes, you do care. Please stop lying.I think SLE fits, and it doesn't matter to me if posters here agree or disagree.
That said, there are a few things pirate said that are not exactly right: SLEs can be quite rule-abiding (they just have to focus on the cause-and-effect aspect rather than the emotional bond aspect).
Nevertheless, I have to be honest, I'm not really getting the SLE vibe either. Maybe it's a little submerged or something.
Now, as for thinking seriously about your type (if for no one's benefit than my own). Okay, I'm way to lazy to read that whole thing (at least right now), but I would say don't rule out ESE too fast. The reason I say this is that one of my best friends in life is ESE and she is actually very willing to be firm and "so fix it" with people. The difference between ESE pressure and SLE pressure is that ESE pressure is emotional and SLE pressure is volitional. They may use the exact same words, but the vibe will be different. When an Se-ego says, "just do it" or "so fix it" or "stop screwing around and get to work!" the force comes from the implied threat that they will use their force against you if you fail to do so (or more accurately, the guarantee for their command is the fact that they are forceful/powerful people). When an ESE says, "just do it" or "so fix it" or "stop screwing around," they're doing what some psychologist lady who's name I can't remember calls indexing. That is, they're very literally playing SLE. But there's no actual threat of force. They get you to do it by emotional pressure... it's more external to their actual emotional state at the moment. It's analogous to how mothers do it. A mother may be feeling wildly joyful, but she always knows how to turn on the "Angry (Black) Momma" face to get the child to do something when necessary. It's a very subtle difference, and I'm not describing it well, but it's there, I promise. I'm going to keep my eyes pealed for examples so that I can describe it better.
Also, my ESE friend uses axiomatic statements like "where there's a will, there's a way" in much the same way that you do.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
ESE is one of the least likely types for me. I was married to an LII and worked closely with an ESE for 4 years. I am definitely not ESE.
Or you just suck at typing.
yeah, maybe I didnt explain it too wellGood metaphor says I.
Argh. I don't want to be negative, 'cause I like you and we've gotten on well in every forum conversation we've had (that I can remember), but, yes, you do care. Please stop lying.
That said, there are a few things pirate said that are not exactly right: SLEs can be quite rule-abiding (they just have to focus on the cause-and-effect aspect rather than the emotional bond aspect).
Nevertheless, I have to be honest, I'm not really getting the SLE vibe either. Maybe it's a little submerged or something.
Now, as for thinking seriously about your type (if for no one's benefit than my own
Also, my ESE friend uses axiomatic statements like "where there's a will, there's a way" in much the same way that you do.
when I talked about SLE being more into breaking rules I said that as a slight joke not to be taken too literally; I was trying to use it to contrast Joys rule FOCUS. while I DO believe they are generally on the rule breaking side of things though, they definitely can be rule abiding but not in the sense that Joy is here. I guess maybe SLE wouldnt talk about it outwardly like this? she puts a sense of importance on it that I dont see SLE putting on. something like that anyway
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
It's only important when it's important. And when in dealing with the types of circumstances I have been lately, it has been. I'm certainly not a stickler for the rules. I'm aware of them and disregard the ones that I disagree with or don't care about or don't think I'll get in trouble for breaking. I just tell people when they're being a dumbass and why.
For example, I was at a party and a group of drunk college age kids decided it would be fun to go sledding in the middle of the night at this huge hill nearby. There are houses VERY close by and signs saying not to sled after dark. I told them that if they went, people would get arrested. Unfortunately, this made me the "party pooper", the one whose fault it was they couldn't go sledding (as several members of the group realized that it was a bad idea and called it off)... but I know I was right. The neighbors would have definitely called the cops, and not all of the kids there were 21. Yes, this was me focusing on "rules", even to the extent of being a "buzz killer", but it would have been a really bad idea to do it and I'm glad they didn't. Would a typical SLE have just gone sledding with them? Who knows. (I probably would have when I was that age.) We already know that I'm not a typical representation of ANY type though, and that aside, I don't think all SLE's in my age group (almost 30) generally behave with such recklessness. When they're in their teens and early twenties, sure. They do mature and start making better decisions with age though. At least the healthy ones do.
The responses in this topic saying "you just don't give that SLE vibe" seem like they're focusing on your stereotypical immature SLE who doesn't give a fuck about the consequences of their actions. This may be a common attribute in young/immature SLE's, but I certainly don't think all SLE's are like that. What about the mid-fifties business executive SLE? Or the high ranking military officer SLE? Or the upper middle class mid-thirties SLE mom? Surely they have developed beyond the irreverent, carefree, and often thoughtless frat boy mentality that people here seem to consider a make-it-or-break-it attribute when considering SLE as someone's type. Is it really so impossible to believe that an SLE might have it in him/her to behave responsibly, respect others, and be serious when the situation calls for it? And is it really so strange that an SLE who has spend most of his/her life primarily around people who aren't Beta may not naturally act as a typical Beta acts?
And is interest in things like anime and Magic: The Gathering really exclusive to certain types? With the exception of LSE's and ESE's, I have seen individuals of every type express interest in these types of things. I've even seen an SEE play Magic and read manga.
Socionics is simply an information processing theory. Two people with the same functional arrangement can be very different from each other, particularly if they're in a very different demographic or life stage, have very different back grounds, and/or are otherwise very different in non-Socionics related ways. Things like subtypes and enneagram types come into play, too. Manifestations of functional arrangements don't play out exactly the same way in any two people of one type and can actually play out very differently, depending on the individuals.
Joy I have a question for you.
Do you like to touch strangers, hug friends or have you ever been reprimanded for having 'loose hands' by someone? Or are you more the opposite of that, in that you don't often touch strangers and hug friends?
That's a trap!!!
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
I'm just trying to see whether she's more ENTJ or ESTP. Since touching is typical ESTP and non touching typical ENTJ. It's probably the best criteria to distinguish between these two types. Joy can provide the answer to it.
would have to say i disagree. they do continue to be reckless. not stupid, mind you, but reckless and somewhat impulsive in their decision making. they know when someone will get them for being stupid; they anticipate people's response to their actions pretty well. well versed in counter moves you would call it.and that aside, I don't think all SLE's in my age group (almost 30) generally behave with such recklessness. When they're in their teens and early twenties, sure. They do mature and start making better decisions with age though. At least the healthy ones do.
joy you have not seriously changed your type often, esp in light of the amount of time you've been coming here, but when you do you write a lot about why you are so convinced you are whatever the new type is. you argue for that type, use a lot of examples, and generally try to make a case. then people eventually accept the type you say you are. then you switch again, which is what makes you lose credibility. people begin to be suspicious of your logic.
then there are times you flippantly will say you are one type or another, which compounds this.
the overall feedback in the thread concerns the superficiality of your logic and the lack of depth in your self knowledge, the rationalizing perhaps.
i honestly have no idea what type you are, except that you seem to be logical. but it's really not important what type i or anybody else thinks you are....and what's important here could be totally up for grabs and individually defined. what does seem important is your self search and growth. i have found that when i listen closely to people i know IRL esp people who know me well their thoughts and ideas are the best source of information.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Never ever reprimanded for having "loose hands". There are friends that I hug, but only if they've hugged me first in the past. I touch strangers when it makes sense to do so... like the other day when a late student was walking up the lecture hall to her seat and the teacher's assistant was trying to chase her down to hand her something and the teacher was talking, I touched her arm as she was about to walk past and motioned to the assistant teacher.
I generally see a person's "personal bubble" as space that's possession and respect it. The size of a person's bubble depends on how crowded the area is. I am comfortable violating a person's bubble when there's a reason to. I think SLE's are probably more willing to get in someone's space than I am, but I think it's because of a lack of Fe from others in my life over a very long period of time that I don't like to assume that people won't get upset with me or be uncomfortable if I intrude on their space. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near "fully dualized" yet.
Basically, I don't have a problem with touching people, but I don't generally just walk up to strangers and touch them for no reason.
I suppose recklessness and impulsiveness are in the eye of the beholder. I know I used to be quite reckless and have been told by various people lately that I am still reckless, but I don't think I am because like you said, I'm aware of what counter moves or plan B's I can make if needed. I wrote a little bit about what some might consider reckless or impulsive in my post about Ne:
I don't just have this attitude in pushing towards an end result I want. It's also related to doing "because I feel like it" things.
It wasn't until I stopped arguing that I was LIE that people accepted it.joy you have not seriously changed your type often, esp in light of the amount of time you've been coming here, but when you do you write a lot about why you are so convinced you are whatever the new type is. you argue for that type, use a lot of examples, and generally try to make a case. then people eventually accept the type you say you are. then you switch again, which is what makes you lose credibility. people begin to be suspicious of your logic.
If you're talking about the LSI thing, that was a joke.then there are times you flippantly will say you are one type or another, which compounds this.
Self-knowledge (or rather, the lack thereof) has always been an obstacle for me in self-typing. This time's a little different in that I'm basing it on what I've been like in a time when I was happier and healthier than I've ever been.the overall feedback in the thread concerns the superficiality of your logic and the lack of depth in your self knowledge, the rationalizing perhaps.
preciselyi honestly have no idea what type you are, except that you seem to be logical. but it's really not important what type i or anybody else thinks you are....and what's important here could be totally up for grabs and individually defined. what does seem important is your self search and growth. i have found that when i listen closely to people i know IRL esp people who know me well their thoughts and ideas are the best source of information.
lol, no its not exclusive. I was joking abit there too.
Blaze summed it up pretty nicely. As far as you basing your opinion on when you are healthy, thats not the way to go about it. Socionics is about how you were yoru whole life, your tendencies and inclinations and how you have acted. Its not just taking the best times of how you are and typing based off that. Maybe this is a 3 thing? I tried to do that too and it just doesnt work.
As far as you being surrounded by people who AREN'T betas, thats not a valid statement to defend your typing. You still would act in ways that are true to your type. Your giving out alot of reasons of why you may be an atypical SLE, but this doesnt exist. Whenever people start talking like this, they're going the wrong way. There are more mature SLEs, business SLEs, etc. But the CORE of who they are will be there. That example you gave about recklessness was basically you stating your mindset; this doesnt really say anything. Give examples. And no, you dont seem reckless or umpulsive at all like an SLE.
"I am comfortable violating a person's bubble when there's a reason to. I think SLE's are probably more willing to get in someone's space than I am, but I think it's because of a lack of Fe from others in my life over a very long period of time that I don't like to assume that people won't get upset with me or be uncomfortable if I intrude on their space. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near "fully dualized" yet."
Rationalizations like this dont work, lack of Fe wont make you atypical. If theres a lack of Fe, SLE will interact with their environment to get it whether it be through Se physicality or a playful comment or whatever. So this would be an INCLINATION to act. As far as being physical goes, SLE are good at gauging that kind of stuff so this isnt really a worry for them like it is for you. What your saying suggests deficient Se.
Look, I havent been around betas all my life. Not even Se types. My dad is an ESTj, and just for the sake fo arguement Im going to put this out there; some people do still think Im ENFj. Whether you accept Im ENFj or INFp, living with an ESTj for these types is NOT GOOD. Essentially what Ive had to do all my life is mold myself to fit him. I actually have memories of him supressing my values, telling me specifically to NOT act like my type. Not in those words so much, but to not say Fe valuing statements, forcing Te down my throat, etc etc. Coming to an understanding now, I have always more or less acted in the way of a beta NF. Supressing it was a work of my Fe and Ni functions respectively; so while I was 'different' I wasnt atypical as my main functions were still the driving factors of my life.
I can see you being a logical type Joy, but I dont know about you being a sensor. I think thats up for debate. As far as judging on stereotypical vibes go, that really isnt the case. this is more rationalization I think; types having a distinct vibe is something very real. Its not about focusing on stereotypes at all, but focusing on things like what you focus on and how you write, etc. Things that generally can not be faked and are reliable indicators of type.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
I am an atypical representation of my type no matter what that type is.
Have you read Rick's article about awakening the ego? It's on socionics.us. If you haven't, I'd encouagre you to at least skim through it. I do believe that, assuming Socionics is valid, there are people who act primarily out of their ego block (the ones who have had their ego block rewarded) and people who focus more on their other blocks. The ones who don't act primarily out of their ego block are the ones who are more difficult to type. They're more internally conflicted and as a result probably less consistant in their behavior.
I also think that non-Socionics factors can change the way people think and act and their interests. Upbringing, environment, physical health, intelligence, and individual quirks all influence individuals. They will still process and react to these things through their own functional arrangement, but the result may be that they act dissimilarly from other people of their type.
yeah I have actually, I personally think its a great article.
However the thing about that is, that wont skew a type. someone acting out of Se role is going to appear very different than someone with Se base. I think you have read expats hidden agenda thread; this is a good example to me.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
People don't connect just on the level of the pure brain/mind. For example, a semi-dual that was fucking hot or a dual that had a shitty body and spoke a different language?
You can also of course be completely physical compatible with somebody but have no emotional or psychological compatibility at all.
But I don't agree that Joy is being unhealthy. I actually think she's.....figuring things out better and being more honest.
Yeah, good point. Though I've also had the same essential advice given to me by an ILI. :-p The context there was me going on about how I knew what I "should" do to fix a situation etc.. and he was like "Um.. so do it?" And that's the tone I get from Joy's posts. Like she's expecting the Se to come from the other person - like she's the advice-giver and they're the doers. To me, it's like her attitude is "uh.. if you didn't come to me for advice - if you already know what to do, what's your problem?" Well that's just my impression anyway. :-P I think that an Se type, like you said, would be more likely to get directly involved - help you do something or w/e. I think their focus would be more on action for action's sake rather helping you choose the best course of action (which is what Joy seems to be about). I remember this old thread actually, if you care to read through it, in which Joy's advice had a similar feel.
Sorry to be talking about you in the 3rd person, Joy.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
yeah, that sums up really well the impression i got too.
from reading this Joy i have to agree you're logical, but i think what you wrote about and ascribed to SeTi is actually Te.
this is from Stratievskaya's LIE description (which i'm sure you've read before) and it fits your self-description well imo.
Excellent leader and organizer. The LIE knows how to distribute work with respect to possibilities and abilities of each. Immediately he evaluates people according to his business, level of qualification and abilities. The work, which he undertakes, he carries out always with the enthusiasm, he is rapid and qualitative.
Bureaucratic red-tape the LIE sees as great evil - that what extremely irritates him, kills his business activity and depresses him. The need for living under the conditions, where his business qualities do not find application, where his labor does not obtain adequate payment - that oppresses the LIE. He tries not to stay under such conditions for long. The LIE is dynamic. Easily they adapt to new conditions, they stably transfer burdens and deprivations. (especially, if he knows that in the course of time this will be worthily profitable.)
Representatives of this type magnificently work in the extreme conditions [ --]. Specifically, in the extreme situation the LIE most brightly manifests his willpower qualities, endurance, composure, business keenness, and also the skill to accurately calculate his time, force and possibility (after being weakened, it can generally forget about the time).
Never the LIE gives up before the difficulties - he will mobilize all his energies in order to overcome them.
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