Extraverted sensing Se PoLR of EIIs-INFjs

[anou]

.

[Beautiful sky]

Hi,

Se polr manifests itself in many different ways, yes, we are oblivious to people being romantically interested in us because when we enter into a room, our eyes don't wonder around and catch people who are attractive or are attracted to us; our eyes don't see people and their romantic interest unless they tell us directly that they would like to take us out to lunch, and then we get the clue that they like us; but, otherwise, we focus on the good and bad intentions of others and we look at relationships between people. We look at feelings of other people, to sense their internal temperature.

As Rasutin said:
"Extraverted sensing......external statics of objects: (share, texture, impact, force, etc.), what we refer to as properties of an object or objective traits, leading to action toward objects via mobilization or arrangement, manipulation of force to achieve desired results. "

We can't see objects, we can tell their color and general shape (square, circle, color) but we can not grasp how they can fit in certain spaces, in certain way in a room, we don't like force and we don't like to use force on others; we can't stand to see people hurt, so we can't watch violent depictions. We can't arrange furnature and we will not bipass a system to achieve our wanted results if there is a law or rule that a heirarche has been established.

I don't buy things because I don't know how or where they will go; I try to minimize because clutter begins to stress me out, I need as much free and moveable space around the home as possible. People find this quality about us very strange.

We love our duals because they have a place for everything, in a productive, efficient manner, so, we don't stress about where the cups will go and if it will be the best way to put it in a certain spot in the drawer or how many cups we will have to have in the house.

[silverchris9]

I'm not sure how exactly it manifests in EIIs, but I know how IEIs respond to SLEs and I'm currently getting the chance to observe an SEE-LII conflictor relationship up close, so between the two, I think I should have some relevant insights and observations.

The first thing I've noticed is that while Se-DS types respond very well to clear-cut and straightfoward commands. I constantly ask, "what should I do?" or "what should I pick" and Se-egos are often there with a definitive answer. An EII, in the same situation, does not really want a definitive answer so much as help determining what it is they want to do. Whenever I pose a question like that to my EII friend (or my IEE mom, for that matter), instead of giving me a clear-cut answer, she asks a question, like, "well, which did you have last time?" or "which is more important right now?" Assuming that people give the kind of responses they wish to receive, it seems that delta NFs, rather than wanting a clear cut Se definitive answer, want help determining their own preferences, practical, logical advice to help them figure out exactly what will be best for them personally in this situation.

So, to sum up, the first thing I've noticed about Se-polr types is that they do not like clear cut commands. When they ask a question about what decision to make, they are generally looking for relevant information (i.e., Te) about their decision, and aid in reaching it, not for someone to tell them what to do.

Another way Se-polr can manifest, especially in EIIs, is in their dislike of hierarchical rankings. Obviously, some things need to be ranked from best to worst: in a horse race, you have to rank the horses from first to cross the finish line to last to cross the finish line. (This relates to something I once read on Rick's site about how we don't mind use of our polr function in places where it is obviously necessary.) But when it comes to actions and especially people, EIIs are loathe to rank, and quick to remind people of the arbitrariness of the criteria and the general lack of utility of rankings, preferring to focus on how a given situation could be right for a given person or purpose, regardless of whether it is ranked higher or lower, better or worse. EIIs are frustrated by people who are constantly measuring themselves by the success of others, constantly comparing one figure to another to determine which one is better, or stronger, or greater.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm not sure how exactly it manifests in EIIs, but I know how IEIs respond to SLEs and I'm currently getting the chance to observe an SEE-LII conflictor relationship up close, so between the two, I think I should have some relevant insights and observations.

The first thing I've noticed is that while Se-DS types respond very well to clear-cut and straightfoward commands. I constantly ask, "what should I do?" or "what should I pick" and Se-egos are often there with a definitive answer. An EII, in the same situation, does not really want a definitive answer so much as help determining what it is they want to do. Whenever I pose a question like that to my EII friend (or my IEE mom, for that matter), instead of giving me a clear-cut answer, she asks a question, like, "well, which did you have last time?" or "which is more important right now?" Assuming that people give the kind of responses they wish to receive, it seems that delta NFs, rather than wanting a clear cut Se definitive answer, want help determining their own preferences, practical, logical advice to help them figure out exactly what will be best for them personally in this situation.

So, to sum up, the first thing I've noticed about Se-polr types is that they do not like clear cut commands. When they ask a question about what decision to make, they are generally looking for relevant information (i.e., Te) about their decision, and aid in reaching it, not for someone to tell them what to do.

Another way Se-polr can manifest, especially in EIIs, is in their dislike of hierarchical rankings. Obviously, some things need to be ranked from best to worst: in a horse race, you have to rank the horses from first to cross the finish line to last to cross the finish line. (This relates to something I once read on Rick's site about how we don't mind use of our polr function in places where it is obviously necessary.) But when it comes to actions and especially people, EIIs are loathe to rank, and quick to remind people of the arbitrariness of the criteria and the general lack of utility of rankings, preferring to focus on how a given situation could be right for a given person or purpose, regardless of whether it is ranked higher or lower, better or worse. EIIs are frustrated by people who are constantly measuring themselves by the success of others, constantly comparing one figure to another to determine which one is better, or stronger, or greater.

we like it because it keeps people who would overrequest stuff from us away from us

As Rasutin said:
"Extraverted sensing......external statics of objects: (share, texture, impact, force, etc.), what we refer to as properties of an object or objective traits, leading to action toward objects via mobilization or arrangement, manipulation of force to achieve desired results. "

[The Greeter]

I stated this somewhere else before but one way Se-PoLR manifests in me is sometimes I don't act/react/respond quickly enough to unforseen circumstances.

Before I do something, I try to think of every single thing that could happen. I usually start from the best and worst, and try to fill everything in between. Of course, it is nigh impossible for one person to do this, and, as a result, there are times when situations arise that I had not considered. When this happens, it is difficult to act in manner which will give me the exact results I am looking for.

[Minde]

I`m not an english native speaker, sorry. If the title of my thread sounds odd, feel free to correct. But there is no need of mocking me...


edit: I actually believe, Maritsa is a kind person.
I think, one shouldn`t use her (or anyone else) for jokes..

Heh, I understand your feelings. I don't like when people mock or make light of what I consider serious, either.

Hi,

Se polr manifests itself in many different ways, yes, we are oblivious to people being romantically interested in us because when we enter into a room, our eyes don't wonder around and catch people who are attractive or are attracted to us; our eyes don't see people and their romantic interest unless they tell us directly that they would like to take us out to lunch, and then we get the clue that they like us; but, otherwise, we focus on the good and bad intentions of others and we look at relationships between people. We look at feelings of other people, to sense their internal temperature.

I agree with and relate to the bolded. I seriously am pretty clueless a lot of the time when it comes to people expressing interest in me. They pretty much have to come up and formally announce it to me before I get the idea. Otherwise I will not get it until someone points it out to me or until (much later) I replay the events in my head and pick up the pattern. Which is really annoying to me, because I think I've missed some good opportunities...

We can't see objects, we can tell their color and general shape (square, circle, color) but we can not grasp how they can fit in certain spaces, in certain way in a room, we don't like force and we don't like to use force on others; we can't stand to see people hurt, so we can't watch violent depictions. We can't arrange furnature and we will not bipass a system to achieve our wanted results if there is a law or rule that a heirarche has been established.

I do relate somewhat to the bolded, though I think some of that can be acquired via training. But, yes, it's certainly not a natural skill of mine - interior decorating and arranging.

I disagree with the underlined. For myself, I'll follow rules fairly happily and faithfully unless 1) I perceive that they are not "real" rules, not taken seriously by anyone, or 2) they contradict my own personally felt convictions about what should be or what is practical. In the latter case I'll first try to adjust the rules (or find loopholes, etc.), but if that doesn't work... I either just go ahead and do what I think/feel is best or just put up with it until I can leave, depending on the cost vs. gain.

I disagree with the word "can't" in the rest of it. Some things may not come naturally, but that doesn't make it impossible or even that I couldn't develop some sort of taste for it, in the right circumstances.

I don't buy things because I don't know how or where they will go; I try to minimize because clutter begins to stress me out, I need as much free and moveable space around the home as possible. People find this quality about us very strange.

We love our duals because they have a place for everything, in a productive, efficient manner, so, we don't stress about where the cups will go and if it will be the best way to put it in a certain spot in the drawer or how many cups we will have to have in the house.

The general essence of this makes sense, though the details might vary. I certainly don't find de-cluttering easy to do.

The first thing I've noticed is that while Se-DS types respond very well to clear-cut and straightfoward commands. I constantly ask, "what should I do?" or "what should I pick" and Se-egos are often there with a definitive answer. An EII, in the same situation, does not really want a definitive answer so much as help determining what it is they want to do. Whenever I pose a question like that to my EII friend (or my IEE mom, for that matter), instead of giving me a clear-cut answer, she asks a question, like, "well, which did you have last time?" or "which is more important right now?" Assuming that people give the kind of responses they wish to receive, it seems that delta NFs, rather than wanting a clear cut Se definitive answer, want help determining their own preferences, practical, logical advice to help them figure out exactly what will be best for them personally in this situation.

Yes. Though sometimes that might include preferences from the person getting questioned. But, yeah, help figuring out the answer to, "What is it I really want here?"

So, to sum up, the first thing I've noticed about Se-polr types is that they do not like clear cut commands. When they ask a question about what decision to make, they are generally looking for relevant information (i.e., Te) about their decision, and aid in reaching it, not for someone to tell them what to do.

Mm, I hate people being all overbearingly bossy toward me (which is what it feels like). Or just telling me what to do (especially when they demonstrate no understanding of the specific situation). It makes me rebellious.

Another way Se-polr can manifest, especially in EIIs, is in their dislike of hierarchical rankings. Obviously, some things need to be ranked from best to worst: in a horse race, you have to rank the horses from first to cross the finish line to last to cross the finish line. (This relates to something I once read on Rick's site about how we don't mind use of our polr function in places where it is obviously necessary.) But when it comes to actions and especially people, EIIs are loathe to rank, and quick to remind people of the arbitrariness of the criteria and the general lack of utility of rankings, preferring to focus on how a given situation could be right for a given person or purpose, regardless of whether it is ranked higher or lower, better or worse. EIIs are frustrated by people who are constantly measuring themselves by the success of others, constantly comparing one figure to another to determine which one is better, or stronger, or greater.

Yeah, that is frustrating, but I'm not sure it bothers me as much as some other things. Then, again, maybe I just haven't had enough experience with it for it to make a significant impact on me.


One situation that feels PoLR-ish to me is where there's a group of people being loud, with lots of movement, any sort of "pushing" each other around (verbally, emotionally, physically, etc.), particularly if I can't escape it and it's invading my personal space. I often feel like I don't know how to handle it, and freeze up or say something dumb or deflating to their mood. And I really hate loud arguments that don't show progress anywhere, that just go in circles; it sort of... flattens me and puts me in an unhealthy mood. Another PoLR-feeling-inducing environment is an arcade or carnival with lots of activity.

Which reminds me - attention to physical space. More than once I've had friends grab me and pull me out of harm's way or through obstacles on a busy city street. Heh, in fact, Cracka can vouch for that. I simply... don't notice some things sometimes.

[Absurd]

I`m not an english native speaker, sorry. If the title of my thread sounds odd, feel free to correct.

Nah, it's okay - I'm over that phase.

I actually believe, Maritsa is a kind person.
I think, one shouldn`t use her (or anyone else) for jokes..

Agree.

[Minde]

I want to thank you for the replys. I was surprised about you opening up so much, that`s so kind. I think this thread is too far away from topic now to continue and the discussion is still going on... I will open a new thread later...

Yeah, sorry about that...

*sigh*

I think most of the more relevant posts are at the beginning of this thread.

[Slacker]

So... because I think Maritsa is INFj and because I agree with Smilingeyes on a lot of things, I'm a beta, too? I'm sorry, I agree with you on a lot of things, but that piece of logic isn't very sound, I'm afraid.

I never said that's why I think she's Beta.

[Beautiful sky]

I never said that's why I think she's Beta.

How did you know your husband was SLI, when you first met him?

[Slacker]

How did you know your husband was SLI, when you first met him?

I met my husband years before I heard about Socionics.

[Minde]

I never said that's why I think she's Beta.

No, I think you misunderstand me - Basically you seemed to be saying that because you see both Smilingeyes and Maritsa as Betas it makes sense to you that he'd see her as being in the same quadra. But the problem with that is that I, someone you've said you see as Delta, also considers Maritsa a Delta. Which is where I see that logic as breaking down - unless, of course, you see me as Beta, too.

[Beautiful sky]

No, I think you misunderstand me - Basically you seemed to be saying that because you see both Smilingeyes and Maritsa as Betas it makes sense to you that he'd see her as being in the same quadra. But the problem with that is that I, someone you've said you see as Delta, also considers Maritsa a Delta. Which is where I see that logic as breaking down - unless, of course, you see me as Beta, too.

I see you as having capabilities of Ti...I am INFj...I don't know what type you are, but that would be clear in VI....and like in your friends case, I can tell in an instant

[Slacker]

No, I think you misunderstand me - Basically you seemed to be saying that because you see both Smilingeyes and Maritsa as Betas it makes sense to you that he'd see her as being in the same quadra. But the problem with that is that I, someone you've said you see as Delta, also considers Maritsa a Delta. Which is where I see that logic as breaking down - unless, of course, you see me as Beta, too.

The biggest problem with Socionics is how easy it is to mistype ourselves or others. So I don't think there's any consistency like that. I'm just not surprised that he and she communicate well. It isn't a statement about you and him or her as I have no expectations of consistency.

[Lobo]

I would like to know how your Se-polr manifests, if you don`t mind the question. In which situation is it shown, what`s difficult? And how do you relate to the Se-polr descriptions below (source: wikisocion)?



Stratievskaya EII - Wikisocion

For me it's doubting my energy and willpower to perform certain tasks. It's also not being sure if I can handle situations that involve forceful energy, and not knowing if I used to much or too little when I do.

[Beautiful sky]

For me it's doubting my energy and willpower to perform certain tasks. It's also not being sure if I can handle situations that involve forceful energy, and not knowing if I used to much or too little when I do.

Se does not have much to do with energy or willpower; that's a misconception...many ESFp's have low energy, that doesn't make them INFj's and neither does it in your case.

My energy is such that I continue working even when everyone else has stoped....that's clearly written in Filatova's description of INFj...try READING.

wikisocion-COULDN'T be a worse reference for element descriptions..Rasputin is an excellent one, however.

[Lobo]

Biting off more than I can chew is an awful feeling, when it dawns on me that I have assumed so much work that I don't know if I'll be able to finish it.

[The Greeter]

Biting off more than I can chew is an awful feeling, when it dawns on me that I have assumed so much work that I don't know if I'll be able to finish it.

Hmm, yes, I see this in myself as well. But is it related to Se-PoLR or is it really Te-DS?

[Lobo]

Hmm, yes, I see this in myself as well. But is it related to Se-PoLR or is it really Te-DS?

Not sure, though I'm leaning towards Se-polr. Efficiency undoubtedly reduces energy expenditure.

[Marie84]

For me it's doubting my energy and willpower to perform certain tasks. It's also not being sure if I can handle situations that involve forceful energy, and not knowing if I used to much or too little when I do.

I think that's a good way of putting it

[empineer]

It is sad that a thread about PoLR Se has turned into a fight like this. So so sad.
I am MBTI INFp and Socionics EII-Ne. I have three very close SEE friends. We have argued a lot. Their controllingness can drive me mad every moment. Somehow they find me extremely attractive (so it always starts one sided from their side). The way they want to convince me how what they feel about something can be the most valid thing on earth and the way they want to check to see whether I disagree with them can feel extra forceful to me. I somehow enjoy the friendship with them since I have a certain 'admire' towards them. But they look to me as if they all are slightly spoiled brats. Therefore I don't get the big fuss about this thread. People pointing fingers at each other saying you are ESFp because you said this and that!!! In my mind, a Fi-dom will never do such a thing. I have encounters with an SLE. I try my best to avoid him the most. Though my boss, an ILE, wants me to stop avoiding the SLE and collaborate and ask for help from him, I don't do that. I have most of my life been like this: when I feel low in authority, and I am asked by a higher authority to do a certain thing, I tend to say OK because at that moment I really can think of stuff that can lead to me doing that. But then I don't feel like I will do it anymore. I procrastinate, wait, wait, wait for the time to come and never ever forget the task I was asked to do. Still, I don't do it. That in my mind is PoLR. I am not entirely passive though. I talk about that task with the closest people to me and try to help them and myself understand why I don't want to do it and how can we replace that task with something else which drives me less crazy (less SEE or SLE involved in it). I saw no such explanation in this thread. I am still surprised by this thread to say the least. It sounds to me as if SEI is trying to prove people that she is right, and to her, it is clear that people lack Te (insisting that people should do some READING). They are an expertise-freak or bookworm. Thinking they know or have read more than everyone else. They seek Ti and Ne quite clearly. We have an SEI in our workgroup, she is like that.