"immoral" INFjs

[Lobo]

Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.

[CILi]

For someone to (more or less) turn off their leading function..., yeah, I could imagine that might be a little disappointing to friends, the fam, et al.

To me, the problem isn't so much the drop, but more the apathy, depression, or killer stress I envision going along with it. A personality change that harsh doesn't just happen out of the blue, does it? (Not trying to read anything into your situation, though...)

[crazedrat]

i want to understand what morality meant to you and why you're evolving out of it. do you have any insights?

[jewels]

yeah I knew an INFj who seemed very ethical/moral. VERY nice person. Loved that about her and we were good friends.

About a year later she admitted it was sort of an act, and she just knew people wouldn't like it if she was herself (she was saying this about dating -- since she'd get dumped when she showed her true colors). I also stopped being friends w/ her when I saw how she was.

She did things like stay friends with an ex-boyfriend because she could vacation at his parents' house and he'd buy her things, even though she told me he was disgusting and she had no respect for him. She only wanted to date rich guys and live the easy life, without really contributing anything in return. That sorta thing.

Not sure if this has been on topic. But Fi and being ethical/moral are not always tied together. It can be easy to be swept along a path of being immoral sometimes, but then you wake up and realize and get back on track.

[Beautiful sky]

Those things are not what I would do.

[Lobo]

For someone to (more or less) turn off their leading function..., yeah, I could imagine that might be a little disappointing to friends, the fam, et al.

To me, the problem isn't so much the drop, but more the apathy, depression, or killer stress I envision going along with it. A personality change that harsh doesn't just happen out of the blue, does it? (Not trying to read anything into your situation, though...)

Yeah, it's related to apathy, you become numb and see some moral implications as being overcomplicated.

yeah I knew an INFj who seemed very ethical/moral. VERY nice person. Loved that about her and we were good friends.

About a year later she admitted it was sort of an act, and she just knew people wouldn't like it if she was herself (she was saying this about dating -- since she'd get dumped when she showed her true colors). I also stopped being friends w/ her when I saw how she was.

She did things like stay friends with an ex-boyfriend because she could vacation at his parents' house and he'd buy her things, even though she told me he was disgusting and she had no respect for him. She only wanted to date rich guys and live the easy life, without really contributing anything in return. That sorta thing.

Not sure if this has been on topic. But Fi and being ethical/moral are not always tied together. It can be easy to be swept along a path of being immoral sometimes, but then you wake up and realize and get back on track.

Ok, that's lower than what I am experiencing right now, hehe.

i want to understand what morality meant to you and why you're evolving out of it. do you have any insights?

Morality for me used to be at times "impersonal," as in I would cast judgment on a person/situation because it made sense, rather than understanding where people were coming from... For example, a woman becoming a stripper to get money to feed her kids. A long time before, I would have just said that it's wrong to be a stripper, regardless of the situation. Now though, I understand that people do things under desperation, and it just makes things harder for them to be judgmental about it.

Recently, I found out about a situation where a student was caught with a solution to a homework from the previous year, and the professor told him to drop, otherwise he would report it to the plagiarism board, or whatever you call it (the one that can potentially kick you out). The guy dropped the course, and I happen to know him. I thought that the professor was very harsh, because he really doesn't know where the guy was coming from. He happens to be one of the nicest guys I've met, and hard working, yet he was careless in using the old homework to check his answers and got caught. To me, you can't just cast judgment on someone without even trying to understand why they did it. It's like with morality you sometimes lose objectivity, and I'm seeing things more objectively. People might disagree with me, but I even see cheating as being the right choice for some situations.

[The Greeter]

Morality for me used to be at times "impersonal," as in I would cast judgment on a person/situation because it made sense, rather than understanding where people were coming from... For example, a woman becoming a stripper to get money to feed her kids. A long time before, I would have just said that it's wrong to be a stripper, regardless of the situation. Now though, I understand that people do things under desperation, and it just makes things harder for them to be judgmental about it.

I think it's related to maturity and an increased ability to empathize, Lobo.

Also, I think the correct term you are looking for is "amoral".

I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within".

I am hesitant to relate this to a particular type or function but I feel that I have been able to do this for a long time. In some cases, it is just me being incredibly naive and denying the reality, but more often than not I feel I am right. Though I believe action speaks louder than words, I feel sometimes that what is within speaks louder than action.

Being able to understand or see the inner essence of a person, I think, allows me as a person, and maybe I can generalize this to EIIs, to empathize, accept and forgive more readily than most people. And by acceptance and forgiveness, I don't mean it in a passive way--that is, "all is forgotten" kind of approach, but rather, taking it all in (not sure if I am clear here).

The thing is, I can hardly pin this down to one particular function and see it more as a holistic consequence of the interactions between the eight functions in the EII psyche and, of course, my own personal journey.

[silverchris9]

lol. This isn't a reduction in morality, it's an increase in contextualization. This is entirely consistent with INFjs. Fi isn't about being moralistic or narrow-minded (that critique is more often and more accurately leveled at Ne-polrs, although INFjs certainly have their faults as well), it's about empathy and relationship and bond. Fi is about "fellow feeling". It starts with attention subjective sentiments towards others, and proceeds out (especially when accompanied with Ne creative) to others subjective sentiments, especially stable relational bonds (parent-child, husband-wife, brother-sister, etc.). It is very sensitive to things that affect those stable relational bonds, and perhaps quests towards their ultimate stasis as a sort of "unconditional love."

Black and white morality isn't actually something that's particularly common to Fi types, especially EIIs, who are always trying to find excuses for people (for certain behaviors). What EIIs will not tolerate is anything they see as harmful to the individual or to the important bonds (which is really the same thing, if you think about it). Actually, I think the fact that in contemporary American (Western?) culture, delta is the quadra most associated with traditional morality has more to do with historical and cultural influences and generational changes than with anything inherent to the type. In the post-Civil War American South, for instance, it was the betas who were the bastions of the "old ways" and such. I do think that EIIs are inclined to be very deontological in dealing with morality; that is, "duty" seems to be an important concept not only with EIIs but with deltas in general. I don't think you're giving up the idea of duty, only adding more context to determine what one's duty is in a given circumstance. You're adding complexity, not subtracting moral obligations.

[consentingadult]

lol. This isn't a reduction in morality, it's an increase in contextualization. This is entirely consistent with INFjs. Fi isn't about being moralistic or narrow-minded (that critique is more often and more accurately leveled at Ne-polrs, although INFjs certainly have their faults as well), it's about empathy and relationship and bond.

In addition to the things you mention, Fi is also about making value judgments of other people's character. Fi does not only serve to create bonds and relationships, but also to keep other people at distance if you, for whatever reason, don't like them. In that sense, Fi does involve moral estimation of other people, although the morals involved can be highly personal and totally insane, as well as totally out of sync with the morals of a specific group.

In unhealthy, unbalanced Fi-egos it is certainly possible that Fi becomes neurotic or pathological in the form of heavy moralism and/or unrelenting moral standards and hypercriticalness.

[UDP]

Fi and Fe aren't about actually being good people. Just because those types might talk more or vocalize more or comment more about what is right and wrong or positive or whatever - making normative statements, doesn't mean they are particularly saintly themselves. It's kind of like saying - oh, you're a priest, right? That must mean you're a good person. Obviously that isn't the case; someones occupation or someone's type doesn't mean morality.

All people have to fight their weaknesses and overcome difficulties, and deal with different pressures in different ways. EIIs, yes, like everybody else, make bad decisions, wuss out, use people, cop out, and other such things. EIIs tend to be immoral via passivity or omission, using their reservedness or typically seeming ethical disposition. Although not always.

I think the 'sin' of EIIs is most often developing a sense of ambivalence about things, and/or their own their own relationship to them. There can be an expectation that action is dependent upon other people for something to change or happen; or thinking that by the amount mental energy or emotion they put into things, that will, therefore, translate into reality somehow. I've seen this in E9s, but also the E6s and the E4s, in their own ways. Basically, just because they are 'aware' of relationships or even 'ethical structures', that doesn't mean they are going to own up to them fully or use them properly.

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah, it's related to apathy, you become numb and see some moral implications as being overcomplicated.



Ok, that's lower than what I am experiencing right now, hehe.



Morality for me used to be at times "impersonal," as in I would cast judgment on a person/situation because it made sense, rather than understanding where people were coming from... For example, a woman becoming a stripper to get money to feed her kids. A long time before, I would have just said that it's wrong to be a stripper, regardless of the situation. Now though, I understand that people do things under desperation, and it just makes things harder for them to be judgmental about it.

Recently, I found out about a situation where a student was caught with a solution to a homework from the previous year, and the professor told him to drop, otherwise he would report it to the plagiarism board, or whatever you call it (the one that can potentially kick you out). The guy dropped the course, and I happen to know him. I thought that the professor was very harsh, because he really doesn't know where the guy was coming from. He happens to be one of the nicest guys I've met, and hard working, yet he was careless in using the old homework to check his answers and got caught. To me, you can't just cast judgment on someone without even trying to understand why they did it. It's like with morality you sometimes lose objectivity, and I'm seeing things more objectively. People might disagree with me, but I even see cheating as being the right choice for some situations.

You're ISTp

I don't think that way about people and their choices...I have changed very little on my thoughts about what I think about why people do or don't do things from the age of 7. I know who is good and who is bad; but, I know who is at what level of good and bad and at what level they are honest or not. But, I don't cast judgement, when I do things that reflect the real situation, it only seems like judgement to others because they can't see or feel what I can.

[crazedrat]

maritsa shut up. your opinion has no place here.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

That video should be interesting.

[krieger]

Closest thing to an immoral INFj that I've come across was Morgan Freeman in some of his darker roles. He has played a violent criminal at one point and maffia godfather at another.

[UDP]

I have changed very little on my thoughts about what I think about why people do or don't do things from the age of 7.

Mhm

[consentingadult]

Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.

I think you're going through some positive changes (I would rather use "a-moral" instead of "immoral"). Think of Sartre, who said morality was a tool of the bourgeoisie to control the masses.

It's not unlikely that you'll end up with a new set of ethical standards, one that has been carefully thought over and therefore feels more authentic. But I want to warn you upfront: at first, this process might set you apart from the people you know, if they hold preconceived ideas about morality, and you won't be able to communicate your new understanding. It takes time to find new people who will.

[xerx]

Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.

I don't think that makes you more immoral, just more amoral.

[Ave]

Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.

Im not sure what you mean when you speak of "moral" and "immmoral" people since I dont see people as being moral or immoral.

But I the person I hate the most in the world is an EII. She was so mean to me and profited from me just to please our ENTj teacher that its almost unbeleivable. Im not saying all IEIs are like this though most of them are cool just not this girl.

[Rebelondeck]

I refer to Fi-types as moralists especially EXIs; however, a moralist is simply a person who tends to adhere to principles of right and wrong behaviour. These principles vary among societies and one society may believe that another society exhibits immoral behaviour. People having grown up with members of a criminal gang may have very different perceptions of morality.

a.k.a. I/O