This is a Thread about the Hikikomori / NEET condition and the psychosocial phenomena that could be leading to that pathology.
I am a Gen X Hikikomori
Hikikomori
This is a Thread about the Hikikomori / NEET condition and the psychosocial phenomena that could be leading to that pathology.
I am a Gen X Hikikomori
Hiroshi Yamazoe is sharing with us how he became Hikikomori. It's heartbreaking so viewer discretion is advised.
Or as we call it in my mother tongue: A Sweat Cabinet (Japanese can sound so funny to Finns).
Anyway, my case for some sort of reluctance to embrace this stuff is the following: Are we just classifying external outcomes?
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Hikikomori Vue de France
I'm thinking that that is some similarity across these two countries.Originally Posted by godslave
I once visited Finnish version 4chan that had this Sweat Cabinet section. Lots of them seemed to align more with the typical incel mindset.
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I'm thinking that that is some similarity across these two countries.
I once visited Finnish version 4chan that had this Sweat Cabinet section
These males that become recluses are interesting. I'm exhausted of hearing easy labels like autism applied, all the nuance goes like puff and blanket stereotypes gets introduced.
Just to expand on this. A teenage boy finds Darwinism repulsive, has complete existential crisis gets labelled as trans because he likes music and poetry, later gets transformed into a eunuch, realizes his mistake, gets labelled autistic. The last label is not that destructive compared to other stuff but you kind of question reasons. Do people need this badly, easy authoritative answers and labels?
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it might be that due to suggestive Se, a specific group more blindly follows established institutions with credentials and terminology. it's like things have to be precisely defined and words that I personally throw around at random or forget a bit very soon become very significant for others.
regarding hikikomori, I am familiar with it. I don't think I belong into this group because I can socialize very easily if I want to but very often I have no desire. Especially in my early twenties I was very disconnected from everything around me and honestly just very bored with people and society and escaping into virtual reality is just more rewarding. at least personally I became aware that through the internet, you can essentially study and spend your time with the works of the most gifted people yet even in big cities you will often encounter people that are just uninteresting. at least that's how it is for me, but other people have probably different reasons or they don't even have a choice. it's a weird kind of way of living considering that in any other time in human history, you would not have been able to exist as a hiki but it's becoming more and more widespread. 10 years ago I would have said it's a common phenomenon among INxx types but dropping out of society is definitely more common in general nowadays. what are sensible introverted intuitives even supposed to do in an environment with fierce competition for resources, status and high individualism? there's no support you could rely on when you are abstract and impractical, so you just drop out of society. it's the safest option.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
Induced trauma can be dramatic for some, where others are unaffected and it all reduces down to your limbic responses via your sensitivity. E.g., why do some get PTSD in military combat zones, and others walk away unscathed fighting in the same real estate, shoulder to shoulder?
There is a high correlation with GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) with PTSD, if you have a proclivity to GAD, those under those scenarios there is a much higher risk for the worse stress disorder. Also there is avoidant disorder that arises from this.
Somewhere in mix, there is an emotive response that fails in us, where it doesn't work, even stranding some in unreactive modes where you are on the other side of the coin with an attachment disorder. Not anxiety per se but anxiety stemming from being close in distance in relationships, like schizoid tendencies or with feelings of being impaired by it.
Overall in extremes, there is something afoul, and you can pin it all your limbic responses, like on dopamine rewards or not, in being neutral, or with higher anxiety amygdala reactions.
It takes two: nurture and nature in the old cliche.
I will call anything a disorder if that interferes with day to day living, from dwarfism to autism. It isn't natural or normative on the extremes of height, nor processing.
Black & white is a shallow divide, division is the color that multiplies
Taking thing at face value is good only for a spell
Watch out for the quicksand, an hour glass isn't worth watching when the cook is done
Marie-Louise von Franz: Slaying the Dragon
The site, I have to say, seems to use abominable javascript features that really protects content gaining any popularity.
For example, I once listened to the dream of a young man who was living still with his mama. He was twenty-nine years old and had never had a
girl in his room. We seriously discussed the possibility of his getting a room outside his mother’s home. He was terrified. He was a very sensitive,
delicate boy, and his mother had a very brutal, strong personality, and he was just terrified of the moment he would have to tell mother, “Look here,
I’m going to take a room outside, and I’m not going to live with you anymore. ”
When he was trying to make up his mind to move out, he dreamt that he had to slay the dragon. Though telling his mother that he had to move out
seems like such a little thing to us, for him that was slaying the dragon. It was overcoming a monstrous neurotic difficulty within himself. His
whole mother complex was involved, not only facing the scene with his actual mother, but overcoming also the inertia and the anxiousness of his
own mother complex. His mother had sown in him an anxiousness, a fear of life. He had to overcome that terrific fear to make that step.
And that is an archetypal motif all over the world. The young man has to do the heroic deed of killing his mother, or the mother dragon, or the
mother demon, which is his lethargy, or anxiety, or fear of living a masculine life. And it won’t help the young man only to understand that he has a
mother complex and that his neurotic symptoms come from his mother tie. He has to actually take the other room and stand the battle.
Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 06-03-2024 at 08:50 AM.
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Yes, probably.
There is probably a mother complex in the background. Archetypically it's linked to a feeling of being secure, protected from the world, like the mother protects you. If this continues into adulthood it could easily lead to something like hikikomori.
However, a mother complex can also lead to the opposite, enthusiastic engagement in the world and adventures, but in a dissociated way lacking groundedness, bubbly like a glass of champagne.
Von Franz has written about this in the book "The problem of the puer aethernus"
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Indeed it seems to go even deeper, it's suggests a form of regression to a state comparable to that of a fetus. Indeed the state of isolation combined with the feeling of appeasement in safe environment evokes the security of the mother's womb. In the case of severe Hikikomori, the mother brings food to him (literally leave it in front of his door). This also illustrates the symbolic and unconscious desire for a reconnection with the umbilical cord.
Having said that, I would not establish a direct causality between the "mother complex" idea and the Hikikomori condition.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...92#post1538592
Ummm...so I'm not sure...did you want to talk about this? It's weird, I didn't imagine this is the forum. But I guess it is. And I guess I am somewhat included in that, from mild to moderate, depending, according to him, but I'm older and not dependent on anyone or anything, just a lot of saved money, but I'm not sure what it means (and he doesn't seem to know either)...
There was a video I watched years ago about the declining birth rate in Japan (and how it was going to be a big problem) and I just remember they basically attributed it to women seeking careers over men and babies, the men wanting video games over women because they were poor and work was too competitive and stressful, they felt they couldn't have families, and just wanted to enjoy their lives as best they could. Then they went to Hikikomori, but it was kind of a different angle, not one of trauma, but of children realizing it was a losing battle in the workforce and wanting to stay at home with a loving mother (usually), living minimally, but they could read or do art or whatever they wanted.
But, and this is just personally, from my angle, this was intentional and purposeful for me. I had a falling out at work with people that backstabbed me and a home I was renovating in a neighborhood that was changing from poor to middle class. When I moved in, the house next to me was empty, but then one day the neighbor showed up. Without too many details, his house was stripped out and he was "fixing" it, but ended up with drug users and homeless people at his house. I eventually found out the house was his grandparents, they passed, but left the house and money to him through a trust (I think because he was a drug user and were trying to help him). Anyway, he wrecked everything, went to jail, at one point somebody was dealing drugs out of his house...Socionically (if it matters), he was either a screwd up EIE or screwed up SEE or something like that...but and again without too much details...he decided one day he didn't like me, came at me super aggressive (I'm guessing he was on meth), but seemed to back down once he realized I wasn't fazed. I was getting overloaded with negative emotions in general and mistakenly took some shrooms (because it always worked well previously). Well pretty much every negative emotion and experience I had throughout my life that I "repressed" invaded my thoughts with insufferable unrelenting color and I pretty much was moaning and crying and really wanted to die for like 4 hours lol. So I quit my job, sold the house, moved, decided I need to deal with all of my shit before getting another job or trusting people again (because let's face it, having relationships means people will hurt you and break any trust and you kind of have to be mentally prepared). Strangely, this brought me back to Socionics, a toxic cesspool of people being unhelpful and kind of hurting each other (though that's the internet in general as well), but I felt like I needed to sort it out as part of dealing with all my bullshit (because it is psychoanalytic in nature). And therapy just seems like a rip off honestly, if you can sort out your own problems, anyway, and it's kind of weird because they aren't your "friend", but just get paid to be "impartial", which honestly for effective therapy don't humans need some kind of connection that isn't based on an exchange of money? I don't understand therapy, it's dealing with the personal by trying to be impersonal. It makes no sense.
anyway, I forget what I'm even talking about at this point. I guess the other thing is if someone is a recluse because of trauma and are avoidant or have social anxiety or are just avoiding things, that sounds unhealthy. But if it's used to deal with, come to terms with, and overcome negative feelings so you can eventually go back to life, it's fine imo. Hopefully, I'm not deluding myself and that's what I'm doing! But I think it is already. Even driving around when I used to get stressed out a lot, I don't anymore. Social anxiety I don't worry as much, like I might feel anxiety, but I don't dwell on it, and if I fuck up socially, oh well, I don't dwell on it, and as soon as it's over, I just forget about it without repressing anything negative about it, if that makes sense. I think I'm also becoming very much like a Buddhist, but that's good I think. Trying my best not to project negative feelings as much as possible anymore.
The sound of the bells are unusually loud today...
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MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
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Thanks very much for the Book ! I will finally read a Marie-Louise Von Franz book !
I've linked that excellent video a few posts above. It's the opening of my "Peter Pan Syndrome (Puer Aeternus)" thread that I started about two years ago...
being an incel does not equate toe hating women and being hikikomori means being shut in. someone can be incel without hiki and vice versa. both can hate or not hate women. however if theres violent incels and ur non violent and u join their grups mb u can fear being linched harassed doxxed and physically killed or harmed or ur life damaged etc.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
autistic ppl have different emotions and processing that often means they are way more populous in alternative groups if not starting them themselves. autistic men and women both have higher T levels than average and u cvan see they have more boney bone structure. femboys have the biggest cocks its a meme for a reason. LGBTQ+ is correlated to cluster B personality disorders and trauma, but also autism. autistic ppl can be hypersensitive and hypo sensitive thus prone to self harm, they are already prone to depression and mental illness bc of this society. trans ppl tend to say they felt different since children and they prolly picked some patterns that they were different or were shamed for their interests since then too. autistic ppl have gender non conforming behaivor. being into art as a male is looked donw upon and most normies if their environment was super hostile towards it, would literally drop their interest and transform to be like the others want them to be, or have enough social saviness to convince them otherwise, then theirp oetry would align with what most ppl like anyway, while autistic individual will piss ppl off socially, will piss them off bc of their specific interest and will resist the pressure anyway bc they would break and are prolly breaking down anyway too much in other areas.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
I'm independent financially since the age 25. Even prior to that I would seldom ask my mother for stuff (I don't remember ever spontaneously asked my father to buy me anything). I sort of lived at my parent place until age 42. I say sort of because Since 1997, I've lived alternately in France and Africa (like most Americans like to call any country in Africa !), spending an average of six months in each country (sometimes up to 9 months in Africa !).
I'm also independent , I have saved money (much more that I should have, giving my situation). I also have music gears of value and stuff. However, things have gotten worse since I started living alone in my own apartment. An incident with a person whom I trusted made me fall into a deep depression, triggered my Anxiety disorder, It also made me paranoid (it took me two years to get rid of that paranoia). I probably subscribed to this forum much more to have a semblance of socialization than to talk about socionics. I have to say that this forum helped me but at the same time it takes too much of my time and I'm kinda addicted to it.
You made some good points indeed. Each story is different but the Trauma (it has to be there), social pressure, the feeling of inadequacy leading to a stagnation and a more or less conscious refusal to grow up (Puer Aeternus), the pleasure principle (escaping pain (both psychological and physical)) all these things add up in most Hikikomori cases. It's not necessarily a Te issue by the way even if it obviously seems like it from an external point of view.There was a video I watched years ago about the declining birth rate in Japan (and how it was going to be a big problem) and I just remember they basically attributed it to women seeking careers over men and babies, the men wanting video games over women because they were poor and work was too competitive and stressful, they felt they couldn't have families, and just wanted to enjoy their lives as best they could. Then they went to Hikikomori, but it was kind of a different angle, not one of trauma, but of children realizing it was a losing battle in the workforce and wanting to stay at home with a loving mother (usually), living minimally, but they could read or do art or whatever they wanted.
Thank you very much for your time and sharing with us.
Lack is the Muse of all Poets
I think this trend will get more and more common especially among normalizing and harmonizing Ni-base men. I know a couple of these people online. it's very often highly creative sensible people.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
Last edited by Ikite iru; 06-04-2024 at 04:01 PM.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
Oh okay, well I'm glad you aren't a young avoidant living-with-parents shut-in then. Just sounds like you have some issues to work out (hopefully). That sucks though, of course, lol. Unfortunately, I don't consider myself qualified to give 'advice' or whatever and you probably shouldn't listen to me anyway (lol). But sorry.
The sound of the bells are unusually loud today...
I love Star Wars references!
I so want Jar Jar Binks to be a great Sith Lord puppeteering Palpatine. But Disney doesn't have the balls.
The sound of the bells are unusually loud today...
Here is another good video on the psychology of the "man child".
I'm a bit hesitant to think that Hikikomori cases in the modern are man child cases. Even more so, von Franz and Jung located Switzerland.
I think we have seen cases that were smoked out from the system itself. The pandemic of piling up riches when you can while leaving very limited changes for success life for so many. So, anyway there may be more causes of introduced by synthetic chemical industry, plastics for instance.
Ok, there is lots of armchair speculation about jobs being transformed. OK, I'm not very convinced of that to their extent at all. I'd like to estimate that heavy machinery operators are muscular dudes from the past, but now it scales to larger areas. Somehow I notice this by listening armchair philosophers take on what is the man of science is laughable at times. No, get a grip they are still mechanics even if we understand underlying scientific principles as a collective much better.
Or that incels would like to live in monasteries is just pure BS as they usually have no natural inclination for that.
I'd say these man babies are still anomalies and when you try to force them to follow statistical trends you have gotten rid of natural variability. That is a big mistake on intellectual and practical level.
So, this seems to need to see some sort of searching to capacities of these minority groupings because it seems as if the only difference what they seem to be allowed to exhibit in a public discourse is their ideological crookedness.
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Yes I agree. I actually was thinking about pointing out the same observation. I mean I'm not even "Jungian" at least not in the sense that I believe that his psychology had figured out the real nature of the Human mind. His psychology is just a point of view, a perspective albeit based on a remarkably well structured framework. So Jungian psychology is to me both a paradigm and a Philosophy. The Jungian Paradygm is the fundament of the so called "personal development". It's very interesting but ought to be taken with a grain of salt even if it is indeed full of wisdom.
Indeed, the pandemic gave a taste to a significant number of the world population (3.9 billion people ! ) of what it's like to live like a hikikomori. Some actually liked it, some got used to it I call that phenomenon the Superman tower pisa syndrome ! 1 - 2)I think we have seen cases that were smoked out from the system itself. The pandemic of piling up riches when you can while leaving very limited changes for success life for so many. So, anyway there may be more causes of introduced by synthetic chemical industry, plastics for instance.
But since show must go on....
....Indeed, remote work seduced a certain amount of people of a certain sociology. I mean, if one had a tendency to have a minimalist mindset, it felt like very sensical so why returning to the old way ? For thoses of them who couldn't continue to work from home after the pandemic, that was precisely the issue leading to decompensatory depression more than the lockdown itself imho. Remote working is a game changer of massive consequences (yet to be seen !).Ok, there is lots of armchair speculation about jobs being transformed. OK, I'm not very convinced of that to their extent at all. I'd like to estimate that heavy machinery operators are muscular dudes from the past, but now it scales to larger areas. Somehow I notice this by listening armchair philosophers take on what is the man of science is laughable at times. No, get a grip they are still mechanics even if we understand underlying scientific principles as a collective much better.
Or that incels would like to live in monasteries is just pure BS as they usually have no natural inclination for that.
Yes, I mean I wouldn't put incels, hikikomori and your typical lazy person in the same category which you call "man babies" minority group. I would say that anomaly can be used (from a certain point of view) as synonymous of Disorder (psychiatric condition) if and only if the person's ability to normally function in society is altered and therefore renders said person inapt. That's basically the usual definition of a social disorder.I'd say these man babies are still anomalies and when you try to force them to follow statistical trends you have gotten rid of natural variability. That is a big mistake on intellectual and practical level.
So, this seems to need to see some sort of searching to capacities of these minority groupings because it seems as if the only difference what they seem to be allowed to exhibit in a public discourse is their ideological crookedness.
Now, of course we all have our capacities, the problem is when these capacities are not valued by society (or the Political Ideology), but there are other solutions...
I knew a woman ( well I didn’t really know her, I met her a couple of times, she lived down my country road, and was kind of related to my family) that had some extreme agoraphobia. It seems like it could be kind of similar on the surface, but maybe not so much underneath.
I actually see exile as a less bad choice than slavery (given that you have a way to extract resources in exile)
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
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Of course, one can choose to exile oneself to the far reaches of one's imagination where everything is under control. it's a matter choice, isn't it ?
R u guys bonding
Just figuring out new viewpoints to be a rebel
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
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I wonder what percentage of hiki are schizoid. Places like japan seem highly focused on pragmatism. There's probably a correlation here in terms of lack of social connections
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
I think this lady sort of fits Hikikomori-sh and apparently she has been diagnosed with Schizoid PD. I mean, her diagnosis doesn't fit imho because she is emotionally very expressive and one of the "markers" of SzPD is precisely the quasi total absence of emotional display. I mean she's a youtuber who uses a lot of humour and laugh a lot...
We live in world where people are constantly in search of a group to identify with. I've already said it here on the forum but from what I observe, Personality disorders just like the asperger syndrome back in the days, became an "identity friendly" and it's as valid as anything anyone decides to identify with.
Anyway, personally I think that the Hikikomori state more often than not carries with it comorbidities but PDs are not necessarily one of them. Furthermore, I would say that Hikikomori is closer to Avoidant PD than Schizoid PD, imho.
I don't think you would be surprised if I told you she's an IEI. many aspects that she describes might really just be a characteristic of that type and subtype she has. It's hard to say if someone who is schizoid would even bother to upload a video honestly. it's very difficult to get any data on that because such people often don't even go to therapy.
I think this lady sort of fits Hikikomori-sh and apparently she has been diagnosed with Schizoid PD. I mean, her diagnosis doesn't fit imho because she is emotionally very expressive and one of the "markers" of SzPD is precisely the quasi total absence of emotional display. I mean she's a youtuber who uses a lot of humour and laugh a lot...
We live in world where people are constantly in search of a group to identify with. I've already said it here on the forum but from what I observe, Personality disorders just like the asperger syndrome back in the days, became an "identity friendly" and it's as valid as anything anyone decides to identify with.
Anyway, personally I think that the Hikikomori state more often than not carries with it comorbidities but PDs are not necessarily one of them. Furthermore, I would say that Hikikomori is closer to Avoidant PD than Schizoid PD, imho.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
there is a theory that 50% of schizoids are "exhibitionistic" to hide their schizoid traits and avoid questioning
I think this lady sort of fits Hikikomori-sh and apparently she has been diagnosed with Schizoid PD. I mean, her diagnosis doesn't fit imho because she is emotionally very expressive and one of the "markers" of SzPD is precisely the quasi total absence of emotional display. I mean she's a youtuber who uses a lot of humour and laugh a lot...
We live in world where people are constantly in search of a group to identify with. I've already said it here on the forum but from what I observe, Personality disorders just like the asperger syndrome back in the days, became an "identity friendly" and it's as valid as anything anyone decides to identify with.
Anyway, personally I think that the Hikikomori state more often than not carries with it comorbidities but PDs are not necessarily one of them. Furthermore, I would say that Hikikomori is closer to Avoidant PD than Schizoid PD, imho.
I have come across a researcher that has tried to make a serious effort to actually step away stereotyped views on autism by using cluster analysis on diagnosed people (whether she has actually researched "autism" is another matter, I suppose).
So, the end result was like over 130.
It really , in my view, defies any sort of psychiatric diagnosis. Sometimes problem points are just better to get assessed.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
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I had to read that twice. That would mean that they do exactly the contrary of what their behavior suggests, namely avoiding attention. Why would such person be concerned about being questioned in the first place ? People with SzpD have usually low interrest in sexula activities so why would they consciously or unconsciously want to seek attention in such an extreme way which again is something they avoid at all cost.
Furthermore, the number of 50% is too high (that's one subject out of two !) which is very suspicious as such prevalence would have been noticed in the DSM. It is often the case that individuals with SzPD (or any PD for that matter) present comorbidities usually PDs of the same cluster. I don't know the statistics about it but according to the DSM and Mental health pros, it's frequent. Now, even if there might be cases of exhibitionism, that would also be considered as a comorbidity because after all exhibitionism is a paraphilia. But that theory is making it too prevalent. I mean 50% is high enough to be considered as a the 8th qualified criterion used to establish the SzPD diagnosis. As a reminder the presence of 4 out of 7 criteria are enough to meet the diagnosis. Conclusion, overall that theory doesn't make a lot of sense at least not on the clinical level.
Lack is the Muse of all Poets
Black & white is a shallow divide, division is the color that multiplies
Taking thing at face value is good only for a spell
Watch out for the quicksand, an hour glass isn't worth watching when the cook is done
I'd not be amazed if schizotypals had theatrical behaviours. Some sort of reclusive yet expressive artists for example may come close to these characteristics (like Dali ).
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
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