Biology and Socionics

[Raver]

I've thought about this for a while and others have as well. I believe that for socionics, it fails to make any sense, if you just look at psychology. You have to connect it to biology for it to be even credible. Just think about it, our personalities are molded because of the way our brain is developed. If one area in the brain is more developed than another than your more likely to be a thinker rather than a feeler. This correlates with every other function as well. Without biology, socionics is a useless imaginary theory.

[Phaedrus]

When I first became aware of Socionics I thought it was biology. After that I realized that not everyone thinks so. But of course you are right, Young_and_Confused.

[Raver]

Well, you can't look at Socionics too closely, it seems to break down.

When descriptions of types, functions, and relationships are so vague, you can pretty much make anything fit.

There are some things that are obvious, but...for this to be a true theory, most of the things should be obvious. There should be more agreement on things, and there should be more information.

I used to think that there wasn't information about socionics in english because it hadn't been translated yet. Turns out, there really isn't much there to begin with.

Like, it is a cool thing in general, but if you want to get serious about it and look into biology, I would just throw socionics out altogether. It is pretty much an interaction shorthand.

Don't be like the dumbasses roaming around connecting all the stupid personality theorys. Keep each theory in its bounds. You can't apply one thing to something else that it isn't applicable too.

I understand what your saying and it is that socionics deal with how people look like in the surface. Basically, the reason someone reacts a certain way over a specific thing with other people is because of the ordering of his functions. However, what is a function anyways? or to everyone else is what comes out of the person's mouth or what he/she is thinking. is what the person is feeling and is what the person is saying, recognizing, seeing. Though, in order to understand socionics fully, you have to look at it and say why? Why does this person get this feeling when their doing something bad? Why does someone notice things that others don't because of their or . Those are just symbols that represent what is going in our brain. If it is going on inside our brains, isn't it fair to say that it is linked to biology?

[Creepy-]

I think functions are probably linked more to neural pathways formed than to any structures etc.

I have my own little idea, though.

Perceiving functions = temporal lobes and parietal lobes
Judging = temporal lobes and frontal lobes
Ego/superego = frontal lobes

My reasoning being that function are probably linked to memory (temporal lobes), and the frontal lobes are the regulators of the brain (ego represses ID, superego is the ideas of what "should" happen, they are regulators themselves).

[Raver]

I think functions are probably linked more to neural pathways formed than to any structures etc.

I have my own little idea, though.

Perceiving functions = temporal lobes and parietal lobes
Judging = temporal lobes and frontal lobes
Ego/superego = frontal lobes

My reasoning being that function are probably linked to memory (temporal lobes), and the frontal lobes are the regulators of the brain (ego represses ID, superego is the ideas of what "should" happen, they are regulators themselves).

Yes, this is along the lines of how I am linking biology to socionics. Brain types does a very good job of this, but it has some holes.

[Creepy-]

Maybe damage to the hippocampus affects functions? (maybe this is how uncontrolled epilepsy can cause personality changes?)

Memory is basically associations, so the thoughts and memories of logical types have strong associations with logical constructs (like procedures) and the ethical types with ethical constructs (like appropriate behaviour). So when they scan their memories to figure out how to act in a situation they'll automatically fall back on their respective positions because those are the strongest associations.

As for sensing and intuition, they would be the strongest associations from the environment, sensors rely on the senses themselves and the perception of space because they remember them better, intutives will rely on the sense of time and development because that's what they remember best.

Just speculation.

[Raver]

Maybe damage to the hippocampus affects functions? (maybe this is how uncontrolled epilepsy can cause personality changes?)

Memory is basically associations, so the thoughts and memories of logical types have strong associations with logical constructs (like procedures) and the ethical types with ethical constructs (like appropriate behaviour). So when they scan their memories to figure out how to act in a situation they'll automatically fall back on their respective positions because those are the strongest associations.

As for sensing and intuition, they would be the strongest associations from the environment, sensors rely on the senses themselves and the perception of space because they remember them better, intutives will rely on the sense of time and development because that's what they remember best.

Just speculation.

Brain damage is said to change the talent you have by strengthening a previously weak one, but deteriorating another main talent. It also makes me think a lot of my childhood. I distinctly remember being dropped in the head at least twice into a concrete floor when I was very young (which explains a lot). I always wonder if it has changed my personality in any way and how much, it is weird how the butterfly effect works and affects our lives and those around us.

Memory and functions interests me as well because of course people remember things differently. Are you saying that memory concerning judging functions involves behaviour and memory concerning perceiving functions involves the environment or distinct experiences.

[Creepy-]

Memory and functions interests me as well because of course people remember things differently. Are you saying that memory concerning judging functions involves behaviour and memory concerning perceiving functions involves the environment or distinct experiences.

Yeah, I didn't say it very well...

[Raver]

Memory and functions interests me as well because of course people remember things differently. Are you saying that memory concerning judging functions involves behaviour and memory concerning perceiving functions involves the environment or distinct experiences.

Yeah, I didn't say it very well...

No, you said it fine to me, I was able to grasp the big picture.

[Dmitri Lytov]

I wrote an article about biological issues of socionics, but it was in Russian.
Here is the address of the article:

http://www.socioniko.net/ru/1.begin/biology.html

Scroll down the page, and you will find links to more articles below the text.

You can automatically translate it by inserting this address in the input field of the automatic translator:

http://babelfish.altavista.com

You can browse other survey articles using the same automatic translator. Insert into the input field this address:

http://www.socioniko.net/ru/1.begin/index-begin.html

[Ave]

If socionics functions are the result of certain regions of the brain being used over others, than wouldnt it be possible to devellop ambidexterity in functions, like with right and left handedness, and wouldnt that mean Jung's theory was fundamentally flawed?

[Dmitri Lytov]

Replying to this question is beyond my domain of competence.

[Ave]

And certainly beyond mine. Its just that Im beginning to wonder why it is a person cant be ambidexterous in a function, I dont not have the answer, but its a question thats been nagging me as of late.

[mimisor]

And certainly beyond mine. Its just that Im beginning to wonder why it is a person cant be ambidexterous in a function, I dont not have the answer, but its a question thats been nagging me as of late.

That's a good question, Cheerio. But isn't that the whole crosstype theory with its explanation why a person can't develop a function, for example T and F, at the same time?

[Ave]

I keep hearing this term "crosstype". Is that when someone has an ambidexterous function, like an ExTJ with an equal degree of s and n? And what is this theory?

Sorry Im not too familair with the term.

[Creepy-]

If socionics functions are the result of certain regions of the brain being used over others, than wouldnt it be possible to devellop ambidexterity in functions, like with right and left handedness, and wouldnt that mean Jung's theory was fundamentally flawed?

As far as ambidexterity in handedness goes, ambidextrous children need to "pick" a hand - if they don't they never develop much of a skill with either hand. They still retain some use of the neglected hand but if you examine their handwriting, the style remains childish (sounds like something a function would do, too).

[Raver]

I wrote an article about biological issues of socionics, but it was in Russian.
Here is the address of the article:

http://www.socioniko.net/ru/1.begin/biology.html

Scroll down the page, and you will find links to more articles below the text.

You can automatically translate it by inserting this address in the input field of the automatic translator:

http://babelfish.altavista.com

You can browse other survey articles using the same automatic translator. Insert into the input field this address:

http://www.socioniko.net/ru/1.begin/index-begin.html

Do you know which areas in the brain are related to specific functions such as intuition or feeling? The problem I have with connecting biology and socinics is that if someone has been born with their feeling area in their brain and their thinking area in their brain, would they become a cross-type or still have a majority of one of those. Most importantly, how does our brain order how much we are to use of each function? Technically should it be a more randomized process? Does D.N.A. specifically select the brain to order each of the functions in the exact order of each personality type?

[Rick]

I think the brain's "job" is to ensure that some sort of psychic lopsidedness develops, so that the individual will be motivated to seek out particular things rather than be equally skilled and happy in all situations. If there were no psychic lopsidedness, people would have little motivation to cooperate, since all people would be equally good at everything. It's like the concept of 'relative advantage' in economics that makes trade worthwhile to both parties.

So we know that our brains are lopsided in some way. But no one knows for sure how it happens .

[Dmitri Lytov]

I already wrote about this. According to James Newman's EEG researches, APPROXIMATE location of functions is as follows: the left hemisphere is responsible for N and T, the right for S and F. Frontal lobes are responsible for J functions (T and F), and rear sections for S and N.

However, this is true only for people with two hemispheres. When one of the hemispheres is removed, the second one gradually undertakes all the functions of the removed one, and in certain time (several months) most of psychical functions are completely restored.

[Ave]

@Dimitri Lytov: Would someone who is right handed be more likely to be an NT, whereas a left handed person be more likely to be an SF?

[Dmitri Lytov]

No, the theory of strict correlation between right-handed and left-handed people, on the one hand, and brain hemispheres, on the other, is obsolete.

[Olga]

Excuse me, what does it mean: ambidexterity in functions?


I do agree with the view of different sides of the brain being related to some functions. But even if we find out which function belongs to what part of the brain, do you believe that we shall understand then the magic of personality and will be able to scan the brain and register any change and be able to treat it and change it and know everything? I doubt.

I do not support the view of Bukalov although I heard some people being real impressed about similar articles. It does remaind me psychoanalysis which confines everything to early years of development.
I would rather believe in the expalnations of genetics and influences of astorlogy. I am sure one day we or not we create the wholistic framework when many things can be explained and understood.. and there will be a slot for psychoanalysis and Bukalov theory but not these theories as a mean to an end.

Cheerio wrote:

I keep hearing this term "crosstype". Is that when someone has an ambidexterous function, like an ExTJ with an equal degree of s and n? And what is this theory?

Rick wrote:

think the brain's "job" is to ensure that some sort of psychic lopsidedness develops, so that the individual will be motivated to seek out particular things rather than be equally skilled and happy in all situations. If there were no psychic lopsidedness, people would have little motivation to cooperate, since all people would be equally good at everything. It's like the concept of 'relative advantage' in economics that makes trade worthwhile to both parties.

Cheerio wrote:

@Dimitri Lytov: Would someone who is right handed be more likely to be an NT, whereas a left handed person be more likely to be an SF?

In my article about irrationality which I pasted under the title "Interactions between the creative and weakest functions" I wrote about the differentiation between types again perceived as a dimension where the extremes are irrational feelers and rational thinkers:

P/ feelers .....P/feelers+P/thinkers ....J/thinkers.

It may be there is a normal distribution of the different types. However, it may be also reflected in brain map.

I also argue in my theory of psychic development that people change and thus they improve their weak qualities. There is a directon of development which is hidden in Suprego.
Socionincs suggest that the third and fourth funcitons are weak fucntions but I am arguing that it is not true, as people strive and develop their weak functions through their lifes to a degree that can be higher than in those individuals who naturally have got these functions as their strong ones. The third function is not a pretend one but an "ambition" function, you can not escape working hard on this funciton. You will get a constant flow of info to your through the first function. Creative funciton does support the first function but does not show the direction of development, it ids more a "labour" funciton.. As Rick said it would be no dynamics as such. This is the aim of the third funciton which can be called a "duty" function someting we can not escape and we have not choice to reject..
For example, ESTP and ESFP have to learn about universal laws and patterns and hidden abilities of people if they want to be a good managers and maintain their power . INFJ and ISFJ have to collect the theoretical knowledge if they want to get their answers to the ethical dilemmas and etc. So, what is your duty functions which you learn all your life? However, according to the theory of development, at one point you will achieve a high degree of this fucntion and then you achieve a blalnace. People will differ in the degree of achievement and of course it will depend on genetic factors like IQ, environmental facros and etc..
It is not not only the base function that drives you to understand the world around you it is also your weakest functon - your fear. I would call Superego block a "sefsufficient block"- which sounds as a caricuture to the socionincs' definiton ("I can" block in socionics) but it is not true if you get a deeper look into it.
At one point you feel that you have gained enough knowldedge on your third function so that your fourth funciton is not weak anymore as reagrds to your abilities. While you acknowledge the fear it is not in a way anymore and you confidently use your fourth function. You have reached your goals, you are balanced, you can. Why is it ISFP does not like instructions, because he has a natural gift to figure it out himself and si ISFJ can analyse no worse than analysts. The difference in the use of between two types will be in perspective: feeler will analyse it in his feeling way and thinker will analyse it from a differnt point of abstract concept. Together we can make a difference!

[Raver]

I already wrote about this. According to James Newman's EEG researches, APPROXIMATE location of functions is as follows: the left hemisphere is responsible for N and T, the right for S and F. Frontal lobes are responsible for J functions (T and F), and rear sections for S and N.

However, this is true only for people with two hemispheres. When one of the hemispheres is removed, the second one gradually undertakes all the functions of the removed one, and in certain time (several months) most of psychical functions are completely restored.

Thanks, I find this very interesting. The rear sections being N and S make sense as well taking into account that is where our visual cortex is and it deals with perception. The front area is where the prefrontal cortex and that makes sense for J functions because that is where concentration and problem solving exists. However, some of it sounds like when I read about the prefrontal cortex, here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

Strangely enough, experts have argued that there is a link of the functions of the prefrontal cortex and personality. I find it very interesting that having more dominance or strength in certain areas of the brain can detertime personality.

[Creepy-]

I'd like to think that a person's personality is based on many different factors and not just biology. On top of genetics and brain chemistry I think environment and experiences come into play. I know alot of people don't get into this aspect as much but I think the soul or the spiritual will power would have a heavy influence on personality type as well but as there's no way to really prove that I guess it's a moot point.

If you subscribe to Freud at all, babies have only an id, the ego/superego develops in order to repress the id (as the baby learns that the world does not revolve around them and their primal impulses and desires, etc. etc.).

So I guess environment has something to do with it, as far as that theory goes (maybe the point to which the id is repressed or the strength of their conscious functions, something like that).

[Creepy-]

I already wrote about this. According to James Newman's EEG researches, APPROXIMATE location of functions is as follows: the left hemisphere is responsible for N and T, the right for S and F. Frontal lobes are responsible for J functions (T and F), and rear sections for S and N.

However, this is true only for people with two hemispheres. When one of the hemispheres is removed, the second one gradually undertakes all the functions of the removed one, and in certain time (several months) most of psychical functions are completely restored.

Thanks, I find this very interesting. The rear sections being N and S make sense as well taking into account that is where our visual cortex is and it deals with perception. The front area is where the prefrontal cortex and that makes sense for J functions because that is where concentration and problem solving exists. However, some if it sounds like when I read about the prefrontal cortex, here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

Strangely enough, experts have argued that there is a link of the functions of the prefrontal cortex and personality. I find it very interesting that having more dominance or strength in certain areas of the brain can detertime personality.

I don't know... I think descriptions most closely resemble the descriptions of the functions of the temporal lobe structures (how about the amydala? All about danger). Also, the IEIs and ILIs report odd experiences which on description bear similarity to temporal lobe seizures (I would know).

[Raver]

I already wrote about this. According to James Newman's EEG researches, APPROXIMATE location of functions is as follows: the left hemisphere is responsible for N and T, the right for S and F. Frontal lobes are responsible for J functions (T and F), and rear sections for S and N.

However, this is true only for people with two hemispheres. When one of the hemispheres is removed, the second one gradually undertakes all the functions of the removed one, and in certain time (several months) most of psychical functions are completely restored.

Thanks, I find this very interesting. The rear sections being N and S make sense as well taking into account that is where our visual cortex is and it deals with perception. The front area is where the prefrontal cortex and that makes sense for J functions because that is where concentration and problem solving exists. However, some if it sounds like when I read about the prefrontal cortex, here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

Strangely enough, experts have argued that there is a link of the functions of the prefrontal cortex and personality. I find it very interesting that having more dominance or strength in certain areas of the brain can detertime personality.

I don't know... I think descriptions most closely resemble the descriptions of the functions of the temporal lobe structures (how about the amydala? All about danger). Also, the IEIs and ILIs report odd experiences which on description bear similarity to temporal lobe seizures (I would know).

Well, the amygdala is said to be the area of the brain that promotes fear in humans and that can be linked to paranoia, The amygdala is involved in making the person aware of the danger when alerts it, but it probably has nothing to directly with to due the fact that they are very small areas that aren't that complex. However, There might be a chance though. The temporal lobe seems like a universal area of the brain that controls a lot because of its size. It is said to control speech, audio and memory so I really don't know, but maybe dominants have more developed temporal lobes. I personally believe they have a more developed prefrontal cortex.

[Creepy-]

Well, the amygdala is said to be the area of the brain that promotes fear in humans and that can be linked to paranoia, The amygdala is involved in making the person aware of the danger when alerts it, but it probably has nothing to directly with to due the fact that they are very small areas that aren't that complex. However, There might be a chance though. The temporal lobe seems like a universal area of the brain that controls a lot because of its size. It is said to control speech, audio and memory so I really don't know, but maybe dominants have more developed temportal lobes. I personally believe they have a more developed prefrontal cortex.

Mine is actually underdeveloped. Causes problems. Maybe that would explain why I sometimes test as ENFp (uncontrolled id functions etc.).

[Raver]

Well, the amygdala is said to be the area of the brain that promotes fear in humans and that can be linked to paranoia, The amygdala is involved in making the person aware of the danger when alerts it, but it probably has nothing to directly with to due the fact that they are very small areas that aren't that complex. However, There might be a chance though. The temporal lobe seems like a universal area of the brain that controls a lot because of its size. It is said to control speech, audio and memory so I really don't know, but maybe dominants have more developed temportal lobes. I personally believe they have a more developed prefrontal cortex.

Mine is actually underdeveloped. Causes problems. Maybe that would explain why I sometimes test as ENFp (uncontrolled id functions etc.).

Well, I wouldn't take the tests too seriously because all they measure is I vs. E, and that is a problem because it doesn't really measure vs. . Like, it tends to just reward intuition for predictability and possibility, when it should for introversion and extraversion. Though, maybe it does, I'm not too sure how the tests work.

Also, which description did you relate to the most in here:

http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi

I found that I related to both the ENFp and INFp descriptions in different areas.

[Creepy-]

Well, I wouldn't take the tests too seriously because all they measure is I vs. E, and that is a problem because it doesn't really measure vs. . Like, it tends to just reward intuition for predictability and possibility, when it should for introversion and extraversion. Though, maybe it does, I'm not too sure how the tests work.

I'm talking about rmcnew's test (which measures etc.)

Also, which description did you relate to the most in here:

http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi

I found that I related to both the ENFp and INFp descriptions in different areas.

I don't relate to any ENFp descriptions. I'm definately, 99.9% INFp (leaving margin for error, of course)

[Raver]

Well, I wouldn't take the tests too seriously because all they measure is I vs. E, and that is a problem because it doesn't really measure vs. . Like, it tends to just reward intuition for predictability and possibility, when it should for introversion and extraversion. Though, maybe it does, I'm not too sure how the tests work.

I'm talking about rmcnew's test (which measures etc.)

Also, which description did you relate to the most in here:

http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi

I found that I related to both the ENFp and INFp descriptions in different areas.

I don't relate to any ENFp descriptions. I'm definately, 99.9% INFp (leaving margin for error, of course)

Yeah you do sound very INFp to me too, I never took rmcnew's test only because it is far too long for me. Maybe I will in the future though when I gain more discipline.

[Raver]

WOW YAC YOU ACTUALLY DO USE YOUR BRAIN!!!!

Now all you need to do is get a normal avatar thingy and maybe I can start paying attention to ya!

[Olga]

I wonder have we got a link to a brain map, it si diffilcult to follow the discussion if you don't know the structure of the brain.

Dmitri said that N and T are associated with the left side of the brain but I am syneasthatic and I do experience "cold" to my left side quite often, I seee letters and numbers in colours and have got other paranormal experiencs like psychic dreams, and I am ISFJ - how this can be true?
If you think that I am "soflty saying" not normal - it does not answer my question.

[Absurd]

When I first became aware of Socionics I thought it was biology. After that I realized that not everyone thinks so. But of course you are right, Young_and_Confused.

And to think people think I am absurd.