Let's see if you can VI me

[Errant]

Beta.

[jewels]

ENFj

[Shagbag The Wizard]

@jewels:

Not EIE!

My general out-goingness is more of an acquired behaviour and requires an expenditure of energy that I can only keep up for short-medium periods.

That's not to say I don't love interacting with people, but I need significant periods of rest inbetween social encounters to "recharge my batteries".




Also, I have no interest in evoking emotional responses from people just for the sake of it, although I CAN do this with some efficiency if needs be (if it serves my agenda of making them feel some kind of empathy or moral imperative).


I'm extremely good at getting people to feel HORRIBLY GUILTY about something, or alternatively I can utterly convince people that something is really, gosh-darn honestly not their fault - even if they're guilty as sin, lol.

People hear what they wanna hear.


[EDIT: this is not to say these are habits, I am merely referring to potential at both extremes]




With regards to the attention-getting username, I do this not for purposes of simply causing a reaction. Instead, it serves my sneaky agenda of challenging peoples' moral/ethical expectations and squelching whatever stereotypes they may have had in mind.



As it turns out, I'm not a slut, if that's what anyone was thinking, lol.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

@Mimosa: Proof of why I am not Fe:



1. Not IEI because ex was IEI and the difference was stark. I can tolerate emotional people to an extent because it's within my agenda to let people be themselves, but I feel smothered fairly quickly and need a break from them.

Also, I am pretty efficient and know how to get things done (suggestive , fairly developed thanks to semi-dual LIE father), unlike my IEI ex who needed me to do all related stuff (as well as I might add, for which he had no initiative whatsoever).



2. Not EIE because my sister is a confirmed LSI and we are so obviously not duals that this is a no-brainer. Also, I see very little of myself in any of the EIE profiles I've read. (Furthermore, excessive and aggravate me no end).


3. Not ESE because there are several of these in my life already and there is an obvious difference. While I love them to pieces, I can only tolerate their emotional hyperactivity and lack of for short-medium periods. Also, I have a severe lack of interest in socialising and networking apart from what is necessary to achieve some productive purpose. If I have no useful / insightful info to contribute in social situations I shut down completely. I have a tendency to make excuses when invited to social engagements, lol. Is that the behaviour of an ESE?


4. Not SEI because ILEs in my life are so obviously not my duals, in spite of our fascinating discussions. YES - I am health conscious. In fact, I'm a health nut, but once again this can be traced to moral imperatives (God gave us these bodies, we "should" look after them). And isn't "health" a stereotype anyway?

I'm also not as laid-back as SEIs seem to be. In spite of (carefully controlled) calm outward appearances my mind is always racing with thoughts and ideas. I especially have a tendency to replay events in my mind, considering alternative things I "should have" said or done (if that's not an compulsion I don't know what is).

[1981slater]

AAAAArgh

[Shagbag The Wizard]

As for your "proofs", they are mostly useless. We can't know if you typed your sister and others correctly.

Ok, so my ability to type people with any semblance of accuracy is obviously the issue here.

To this, and other similar comments so far on this board, I will reply the following:



1. Not knowing my sister or any other person in my life, you are simply not in any position to comment on the accuracy of my typings.



2. You must therefore either accept them at face value or dismiss every one of my posts as the mere ravings of an ignorant ass. That is ofc your choice, but simply accusing me of being wrong or lousy at typing is not helpful.



3. In my defense, I will say that everyone I have typed so far has remarked on the accuracy of the typing. If that is not a basis for some measure of confidence then what is? We may as well all abandon socionics (and life) entirely if we cannot even trust our own abilities to observe and understand the world around us with some level of accuracy.



4. I don't think I am entirely stupid. Given that your knowledge of me is limited to 2 days worth of posts, I think I at least deserve the benefit of the doubt before being dismissed as ignorant.



5. I do not claim to be a socionic expert, and will gladly accept correction wherever it is due. I'm not here to prove my own latent powers to people but to learn more about this fascinating subject.



6. If my understanding of is limited, fine. I am here to learn. So teach me. However, for godsake I am fully capable of reading a profile and determining whether it describes me or not to any large degree.



7. I also think that determining type by process of elimination is an equally valid method that is far from useless. Please explain to me why this is wrong and I will gladly consider alternatives.




8. I am sticking with my self-typing of EII for now, in spite of what some people are calling errors, inconsistencies and ignorance. My self-typing has been based on rigorous testing and reflection from numerous angles.

Among other things, I match the available profiles almost exactly. And my relationships with other types are spot on according to the socionic descriptions. I've had relationships with people of many different types and I think I have SOME ability to understand the significant qualitative differences between them.





What is clearly evident to me on this forum is a prevalence of stereotypes about what a certain type should or should not be. So either I am still too "young" in socionics and wrong in my self-typing, or there is still a widespread misunderstanding of the difference between nature and persona and their interactions with each other.



Clearly then, one of my major goals here is to show anyone who may be interested the difference between what I believe to be my inherent EII traits and the traits that have been acquired over a lifetime of interactions and influences.


If, after all that, my type needs to change, then so be it, but I honestly believe this to be highly unlikely.



And that's not arrogance, that's just typical EII stubborn insistence on the things that we believe in the depths of our souls to be the "truth" even when the whole world says otherwise, lol.

(EIIs, please back me up on this!! )



Ok, rant over.

Thank you.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Shagbag, you're trying to hard imo and I don't see the point.

[Marie84]

And that's not arrogance, that's just typical EII stubborn insistence on the things that we believe in the depths of our souls to be the "truth" even when the whole world says otherwise, lol.

(EIIs, please back me up on this!! )

This sounds more Te PoLR than seeking, and Ni+Fe, from my understanding.

(I know I quote the wiki a lot but...)

"IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it"

[Shagbag The Wizard]

(I know I quote the wiki a lot but...)

"IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it"

Thanks for bringing this up.

Having an IEI as my ex, I can definitely confirm the point in question.

His almost blanket dismissal of any actual facts that contradicted his preconceived ideas about something. This was part of the reason why any conversations outside of or territory were completely frustrating to me.


By contrast I appreciate and welcome factual information. I do rely heavily on when first encountering a new person or situation, but I will gladly modify my perceptions based on any subsequent info.

[Lobo]

What is clearly evident to me on this forum is a prevalence of stereotypes about what a certain type should or should not be. So either I am still too "young" in socionics and wrong in my self-typing, or there is still a widespread misunderstanding of the difference between nature and persona and their interactions with each other.

I agree, and I've been here for some time. It's interesting to think why people come here... What brings them here if not to explore their own identity? It makes me realize that for someone who looks to understand himself, it's hard to turn down a role, especially if they say you were born for it... We don't question they. Why would you even question it, since nobody has ever given you such claims before? So you take it. It doesn't matter who they is really. You want a part, a role you were born with.

When you assume a role, it gives you power... When you go out into world, your type becomes your identity. You know deep down that this is not true, yet you still play the part. Life without this play is too uncertain... You want to know the parts of those around you, what is the role they were born to play. Your type is nothing by itself, it's just clothes that fit you. People forget that it comes in different colors.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

When you assume a role, it gives you power... your type becomes your identity.... You want to know the parts of those around you, what is the role they were born to play. Your type is nothing by itself, it's just clothes that fit you. People forget that it comes in different colors.

Exactly the kind of superhuman insights I would naturally expect from another EII. Of course, I totally agree with all of the above.

(And LOVE LOVE LOVE the avatar, btw)

[Suz]

@jewels:

Not EIE!

My general out-goingness is more of an acquired behaviour and requires an expenditure of energy that I can only keep up for short-medium periods.

That's not to say I don't love interacting with people, but I need significant periods of rest inbetween social encounters to "recharge my batteries".

That is the MBTI definition of extrovert/introvert. (which also had me confused for a while in socionics).

Apparently in socionics you have to see which function you use the most. If it's Fe, Ne, Te, or Se, then you're an extrovert. You can be an introverted extrovert (like me), or an extroverted introvert. Some socionics introverts are much more outgoing than some socionics extroverts.

In the IEE's case--the extraverted primary function is an intuitive one so it's not totally necessary that you may see me as sociably outgoing. In fact, i like to observe a lot when i'm in a group, especially a loud, rowdy one. I also feel a a bit self-consious and not always very confident about saying things, unless i know i'm among friends.

I also need time on my own to recharge--i now realize this may be because of my Si-dual seeking. I am not always aware of my own physical/stress limits, and OFTEN stretch myself very thin. And then i'm like wow i am WORN OUT. But when i am on my own, just chilling, i still need some interaction--need the TV on, be online, whatever. Otherwise I go crazy. Apparently introverts can just do. . .nothing, sleep, just sit there.

The extraverted quality is that you need to be interacting somehow with your environment. The diagram posted in the gamma section illustrated it well. You perceive an object with whatever primary function you use, and you react in some way back to the object. Introverts perceive the object and react back to themselves.

[Galen]

Most of what Workaholics said is right on the money. The nature of Ep temperament requires some level of energy recharge, as irrationals energy levels tend to vary erratically throughout the course of a day. Ij temperaments are much more staunch in that their energy levels are maintained at roughly the same low amount throughout an extended period of time. Plus ENFps are generally regarded as the "shy extroverts," which I suppose is the nature of Ne leading.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Wants to say something useful but doesn't...nothing new there.

[stanprollyright]

Definitely not Delta. And your typings of your friends, sister, and ex are probably crap too. You've got some unlearning to do.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Definitely not Delta. And your typings of your friends, sister, and ex are probably crap too. You've got some unlearning to do.

lol at the voice of reason.

[Suz]

Definitely not Delta. And your typings of your friends, sister, and ex are probably crap too. You've got some unlearning to do.

Yeah dont worry Shagbob, I had to do some unlearning myself recently. I think i'm on the right track now but it took some brainpower to disregard every association and mental image i'd made of each type so far. However, now that i have gotten a couple of notable typings right (including my own) things make a LOT more sense. my learning is going much faster just because I dont need to spend as much time trying to understand since it just works, and the pieces are falling into place.

It was an interesting experience though trying to be beta and feeling how not fitting in felt--really eye opening about beta vs delta!! I guess i learn best by direct experience.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

That is the MBTI definition of extrovert/introvert. (which also had me confused for a while in socionics).

Ok, I concede you are right. Poor choice of words on my part.

According to socionic introversion/extraversion, introverts tend to conserve energy more than expend it. This is definitely me! I do this in all aspects of life. Social interaction is only one example of me needing to "get away" from the source of energy depletion after a certain period.

Ofc, I need to consider other factors in this Ex/Int decision as well.

To name a few:



Socionic extraverts - tend to include others.

I do not. I hardly EVER take any initiative to invite people anywhere (shocking, I know), I'm usually the one to be invited. However, in social situations I will make an effort to ensure that everyone feels included and appreciated, but I believe this has more to do with my leading .


Extraverts - wider, more superficial interests.

Nope, not me. I'm very picky about what I choose to spend my time and energy on.


Extraverts - need greater stream of external stimuli to prevent boredom.

No. I can focus on a task for fairly long periods. For example, I can and do often spend days at a time glued to my laptop. Also, I am not easily distracted when my attention is given to something.


Extraverts - often need to speak their thoughts out loud.

No, in fact people who have worked with me on a daily basis for the past 2 years know almost nothing about me apart from what they need to know. I am intensely private with my thoughts, even my parents have complained that they don't know me well enough, lol.


Extraverts - enjoy taking on new responsibilities.

No, no, no! I avoid this wherever possible. I even refuse to keep pets for this very reason, lol. (Although I seem to have an almost instant pacifying effect on most animals, go figure. )


Extraverts - tend to make contacts.

So the opposite of me. I have a tendency to avoid new contacts for the simple reason that I just can't give everyone the time and energy I feel they deserve (and that they expect).


Extraverts - overdoing things.

Not really, no. Unless it is worth overdoing! (eg. Street Fighter ). HOWEVER - when I choose to do something I feel is important, I will do it thoroughly, to utter completion and to the best possible standard. (I realise that sounds a bit LSE-ish, but most profiles seem to confirm the industriousness / diligence / high work ethic of EIIs, so that's a bit of a moot argument).


Extraverts - often unsure of ties that exist between themselves and others.

No, this is my strongest ability. Sometimes I wish I didn't have this superpower, but ah well....


(And for godsake please don't anyone assume because I'm using words like strong / power etc. )

Apparently in socionics you have to see which function you use the most.

I agree. For me it's definitely .

A lot of people immediately assumed I was Beta because I came onto this forum seemingly gunz-ablazin' with flash and attitude. However, that is another stereotype.

I resent the common idea that EIIs are all slothful, dreamy-eyed people who seem to lack motivation and direction, lol.


If anyone has bothered to read an EII profile, they would know that EIIs are VORACIOUS when it comes to learning about something they are interested in, devouring every source of knowledge they can find on the subject. Thus, my apparent 'enthusiasm' (even "arrogance", according to some ) on this board is easily explainable in those terms. Socionics is not the first subject I have voraciously devoured.

If it's Fe, Ne, Te, or Se, then you're an extrovert. You can be an introverted extrovert (like me), or an extroverted introvert. Some socionics introverts are much more outgoing than some socionics extroverts.

Hmm....I've heard about this.

Right now I guess I would call myself an extraverted introvert?? Obviously, I definitely need to look into it some more...

I also feel a a bit self-consious and not always very confident about saying things, unless i know i'm among friends.

Hmm.......if I feel I have something useful to say, I am not shy about saying it in front of anyone, friends or not. Otherwise I will keep quiet. (What does that make me?? )

I also need time on my own to recharge--i now realize this may be because of my Si-dual seeking.

This is an interesting point I've been dying to bring up, thanks!

People who are able to quietly do some kind of manual, hands-on technical work ( ??) ..........seem to have an utterly mesmerising effect on me!

This happened to me recently when an SLI colleague of mine was quietly tinkering with a broken PC while I was working on my laptop. The hairs on my neck stood up, lol.

It happened again when the handyman at my apartment (who I strongly suspect is LSE) came to fix the door the other day. As he was quietly working, the effect on me was positively trance-like.


Does this have some kind of socionic relevance?

Could this be further proof of an EII suggestive function??

But when i am on my own, just chilling, i still need some interaction--need the TV on, be online, whatever. Otherwise I go crazy. Apparently introverts can just do. . .nothing, sleep, just sit there.

Yeah, that's me, I can just sit there and do nothing, lol.

Although, I'm not really doing nothing! My thought processes will probably be taking over at that time.

The extraverted quality is that you need to be interacting somehow with your environment.

Well, in that case I'm definitely Introverted.

Introverts perceive the object and react back to themselves.

Yeah, that's me!!



Yay, so can everybody agree that I am a Socionic Introvert, or are there still detractors here??

[Shagbag The Wizard]

@Lobo: nope, not LSE



By process of elimination, I guess it should be fairly obvious by now that I'm EII.

(The fact that this comes as a surprise to most people means we have a lot of great discussion ahead of us, lol.)



@Cyclops: I'm a decent cook although I tend to avoid it wherever possible as it bores the crap out of me. Like most EIIs I'm pretty proficient at anything I set my mind to, in spite of the initial apathy.