Am I an unhealthy LII?

[Zed]

Did you consider ILE so far?

Well done, you were the first to suspect Ne had some role to play in this. I read the ILE description, and I was quite stunned - I could relate to many of the quirks of the ILE, but after reading tuturututu's post, I now understand why I have all of a sudden begun to take on ILE-like behaviours. Reading the ILE description helped me understand how Ne manifests itself.

They cannot logically explain their ideas as they are always intuitive and vague.

A recent thing with me, been this way the last couple of years. I should have thought up a better thread title - I am certain I am an LII, my question was about my mental "health".

This is the result of overused Ne killing off your productivity. I can totally relate to this. The best cure to it is to just go out and do your thing. You might as well forget what you were thinking about the best way to go about doing those things and act on a whim instead. You'll surprise yourself and perhaps your surroundings by the produced results

You are awesome.

Do you really need to greet them? If you feel you do need to and don't do it after all then the feeling of guilt is inevitable. I can totally relate to not greeting people, however I feel no guilt because I don't feel that I'm supposed to greet them or something.
Do you need to seriously get out more? I think you know the answer. What's the worth of it? What's your goal?

You are awesome. I could probably recycle your reasoning concerning greeting and use it in other social situations. Sounds like a very sensible approach. I want to stay home and play video games, and read Aquinas' Summa. I do think I need some form of recreational interaction with other people, but I'll try and incorporate that without making too much of a compromise with who I really am.

I can totally relate to this. I guess we need to take more showers, and not forget to brush our teeth. Because when you're clean the other things kinda just fall into their place.

Agreed.

uses Ne excessively has a weak Se.

Ah... so Ne and Se are at opposition, not Ti and Se.

General advice: Get yourself some kind of a mission, a very personal war or something. This will also pull you more towards Ti (assuming you're Ne-LII who is kind of sick and tired of overthinking things (IJ-Ne tends to overthink things)).

You are awesome. Theoretical and practical. This is gold, thank you so much.

Even in bed.

Yeah it happened to me once to be turned down by a girl. <snip>.

Is this the Ne thing I mentioned earlier? I have no idea WTH you're trying to say.

From your post, it's evident to me that you value Fe > Fi... It's not just the use of emoticons that shows it, but the emotional force of the language you use.

Interesting, I've never thought about typing people this way.

What you wrote about Fi is interesting... I'm EIE and I flat-out don't understand the nuances of Fi to the point that when other people are using it it pisses me off... Could you elaborate more on that??

Doesn't being an ENFj automatically make you strong at Fi, even though it is not valued?

Having read over your post, I don't think you sound unhealthy. What you describe are just the normal LII responses to stress, heartbreak, and loneliness. Pretty much everything you've written is familiar to me and most other LIIs.

I'm not a freak then?

This is mostly Role Fi. Mainly, what you need here is an Fe-Ego type to give you an Fi "script" for your Role function to act out in these situations. Obviously, ESE would be ideal for this, but other Fe-Egos will suffice in a pinch. I don't know how well an Fi-Ego would work for this -- they might tend to take it too seriously and make you feel bad for sucking at it.

You too are awesome. This advice sounds incredibly useful.

it's not your responsibility to deal with that stuff. Your responsibility, as an LII, is to make sure everything is logical and makes sense.

This would be such great freedom. I am worried about the repercussions though.

Pining over an ESE for a year and a half?

I am still figuring this out, but I am quite impressed with the ideas I have. I will report back if anyone is interested.

About greeting people, who is the primary person in this interaction? You are the one who should decide that. Damn what you're supposed to do. It's like you're accommodating them before you even know them. Say hi or don't, it's your choice.

I like this attitude.

I take it you're not used to making your own decisions?

I often need a second opinion before committing to anything. Why?

I'm not sure if there was anything else I wanted to reply to - but I've exhausted myself, so I'll check back later.

[krieger]

I find LSIs to be (usually) mannered and natural, knowing almost instinctively what's appropriate to do in social interactions.

Given that this is a terrible description of what I am generally like in social situations, you may want to drop that ludicrous claim of yours that I might be ISTj. All I said was that the exact way in which he said he had trouble answering to greeting doesn't correspond to my experience of how INTjs are socially awkward. As an indisputable and practically indisputed INTj myself, this comment should be viewed as more relevant than the input of an ENTp on the topic.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

How comes that you relate to the opposite poles at the same time?

I relate to everything that I wrote in the post you quote there, and not in any way to what you say about ISTjs (in addition to disputing that it is true of ISTjs in the exact way you formulate it here). There is no contradiction between the two. INTjs, including myself, have massive social awkwardnesses, but refraining from greeting people is not one of them.

You "indisputable" LII type is shaking for a while, as far as I can tell.

If this was a world in which any random person randomly saying I was some type or other would make my typing shake, it would be. But such a world would be far more generous to a fuck up like you than this one is.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

Do you actually agree with the theory of some socionists that states that type can change, so that someone can exchange his/her Se for Ne overnight?

I've said this in the chat a few days ago, tuturututu and archonalarion can confirm it:

"I always badly wanted Smilingeyes' theories to work. I wanted them to work so badly I tried to force them to in every possible way. I now know that they don't work because despite all those attempts I couldn't."

Most of my attempts to make the type change paradigm "work" revolved around interpreting whatever inclination towards certainty and work drive I had in terms of a change to an ISTj type. If there was a way I could interpret myself to be an ISTj, I would have found it at the time. I WANTED the proposition to be true.

But the comparison with real ISTjs abruptly failed. My "work drive" was laughable to compared to what it was supposed to be. Se types, easy as they are to detect, never ceased to target my weaknesses. And I never got the whole discipline and order thing right. My room remained a mess like it had always been. My clothing remained badly attended. My hair remained in disarray. They remained all this because I couldn't care about the short term conditions in regard to them, and that's what forever defined, and defines, me as an intuitive.

The thing you're missing is that Te is a decisive function, probably moreso than Se is. Se is just the confident pose of a person, the way s/he carries him/herself physically. It's the absence of a sense of awkward weirdness. Te is what people use when they express their opinions with confidence, and Te is a strong function in INTjs.

[electric sheep]

It's Zed's thread, why are you freaking out? Is this an LII reaction?

Don't make me go ESI on your ass

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[electric sheep]

yea I'd still supervise the shit out of you

[ArchonAlarion]

But the comparison with real ISTjs abruptly failed. My "work drive" was laughable to compared to what it was supposed to be. Se types, easy as they are to detect, never ceased to target my weaknesses. And I never got the whole discipline and order thing right. My room remained a mess like it had always been. My clothing remained badly attended. My hair remained in disarray. They remained all this because I couldn't care about the short term conditions in regard to them, and that's what forever defined, and defines, me as an intuitive.

The thing you're missing is that Te is a decisive function, probably moreso than Se is. Se is just the confident pose of a person, the way s/he carries him/herself physically. It's the absence of a sense of awkward weirdness. Te is what people use when they express their opinions with confidence, and Te is a strong function in INTjs.

And these are some reasons why I do not type as LSI, as well.

[JohnDo]

I'm so tired of this shit. This is Zed's thread god damn it. Take your bullshit arguments somewhere else.

This discussion about my type is not off-topic at all because I also asked myself if I was an unhealthy LII. I suffered from social anxiety disorder for many years which is probably a common disorder for H-LIIs because they are frequently victims of bullying. At the moment I feel rather healthy although I have most of the thread-opener's problems, too...

The reason I dislike you so much is that all of the weaknesses I see in myself, which I take steps to counteract and compensate for, I see strongly in you, uncounteracted and uncompensated for. Like, for example, the tendency to believe things because they're interesting, not because they've been demonstrated to be true.

True. I'm definitely the same type as Agent Fox Mulder from The X-Files. H-LII, 5w4, some people would say a loner crank. Do you dislike Mulder, too? He is probably the best example of a slightly unhealthy H-LII whereas Dr. Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG1 is a very good example of a healthy H-LII. Do you agree?

However, if I were to base my opinion solely on your posts here, I would guess you are either Dominant or Creative, not Harmonizing, as you seem to constantly go around provoking conflict rather than avoiding it. But I'm only around 50% certain of that, so again, it's not a strong opinion. It's in a box in my brain labeled "unresolved question".

I really don't want to provoke conflicts, I just want to know the truth. Agent Mulder also doesn't want do provoke conflicts but he enters conflicts wherever it is necessary for getting closer to the truth...

[Zed]

I find LIIs I know to be actually clumsy when it comes to greetings and manners. My impression is that they need a point in everything they do, something they need to understand, but these actions have no logical explanation, especially because they vary largely without defined rules. They ask themselves "why?" and they can't find an answer, because there's no such answer.

Exactly.

INTjs, including myself, have massive social awkwardnesses, but refraining from greeting people is not one of them..

Are you going to support this statement in any way? Seems very Te to me. Every other LII in this thread has given reasons for any statement they've made that aren't self-evident. You, on the other hand...
I think this is a big fuss over nothing. It makes about as much sense as doubting that I am LII because I like salmon roses and no other LIIs you know will go near them.

[electric sheep]

Well if you get into the habit of greeting people, you don't need to have a rationale for greeting someone because it's something you always do (that's probably ideal). Alternatively, if you become aware of the tension that is created by sitting near someone without greeting them, you can greet them for the purpose of alleviating that tension.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Krig the Viking]

True. I'm definitely the same type as Agent Fox Mulder from The X-Files. H-LII, 5w4, some people would say a loner crank. Do you dislike Mulder, too? He is probably the best example of a slightly unhealthy H-LII whereas Dr. Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG1 is a very good example of a healthy H-LII. Do you agree?

Daniel Jackson is probably C-LII, in my opinion. He's more oblivious to his surroundings than an H-LII, and always producing new theories and hypotheses on things, which is characteristic of the Creative subtype. I've never tried to analyze Mulder's type; I never really watched the X-Files.

I really don't want to provoke conflicts, I just want to know the truth. Agent Mulder also doesn't want do provoke conflicts but he enters conflicts wherever it is necessary for getting closer to the truth...

No LII particularly wants to provoke conflicts, but H-LIIs actively avoid conflicts.

[electric sheep]

JohnDo, I have both you and Krig down for 1w9.

[Krig the Viking]

JohnDo, I have both you and Krig down for 1w9.

Haha, I would probably agree with that. 1w9 is certainly my own self-typing in that system, anyway. I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to Enneagram, though.

[JohnDo]

Daniel Jackson is probably C-LII, in my opinion. He's more oblivious to his surroundings than an H-LII, and always producing new theories and hypotheses on things, which is characteristic of the Creative subtype.

I think Harmonizing is the most oblivious subtype. We seem to have completely different conceptions of H-LII and C-LII. H-LIIs may be mixed up with ILI and IEI, C-LIIs may be mixed up with ILE and LIE.

Daniel Jackson is in no way a C-LII. The only fictional C-LII I know is Hannibal Smith from the A-team, a completely different character who is typed LIE by some people...

Haha, I would probably agree with that. 1w9 is certainly my own self-typing in that system, anyway. I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to Enneagram, though.

Ones are clearly LSIs, not LIIs...

[electric sheep]

Ones are clearly LSIs, not LIIs...

Robespierre was known as "The Incorruptible." That sounds like a one to me.

[Krig the Viking]

I feel bad about derailing Zed's thread, here, so I'm splitting off my response to JohnDo into a new thread, here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-subtypes.html

[krieger]

Are you going to support this statement in any way? Seems very Te to me. Every other LII in this thread has given reasons for any statement they've made that aren't self-evident. You, on the other hand...
I think this is a big fuss over nothing. It makes about as much sense as doubting that I am LII because I like salmon roses and no other LIIs you know will go near them.

LII's have an Fi role function. That makes them more naturally polite than several other T types. It's a bit of a moot point to ask for reasons in socionics, though, because all of them are either based on authority, consensus or mumbo-jumbo talk. If I say I believe X for bullshit reason Y and another person says they believe Z for bullshit reason W, that is enough to create a their-word-against-mine situation. In the end, all of it just an obscured form of personal experience.

Resuming, other LIIs seem to point to a rather socially unskillful type, while he tells the opposite, as far as I can tell.

Not the opposite. They just posess a form of politeness. Most of the INTjs around here will recognize this in themselves if they look at themselves objectively. Of course, with all the confirmation bias and consensus talk going on in this place, that is a lot to ask for.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

How is there a contradiction between a person's being socially awkward in a general sense and polite in a certain specific one? There isn't.

Which is actually the real thing which applies to you and where this "sort of politeness" situates between the extremes?

Exactly in the area we were talking about: reacting naturally to greetings and initiating greetings when this is appropriate.

I am occasionally in a type of situation where I dislike or have an ambiguous relation with a certain person and feel disinclined from greeting them, but this is an exception to the rule and not very common.

[Zed]

Ah, okay then. You were just starting to sound like you weren't going to allow any exceptions.

Since socionics isn't a pure science, how much of it should be taken seriously, in your opinion?

[krieger]

The part you can confirm with your own observations. Generally, don't take any of the information you find as anything more than a suggestion as to what to look for.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[JohnDo]

@Maritsa: He is obviously an LII. What else should he be?

Procrastination, not taking showers, not brushing teeth, not cleaning the room, problems in social situations...

IEEs are also slobs - but don't have many problems in social situations.
ILIs also have problems in social situation - but not many problems with showers, teeth, cleaning...

Most problems in life have something to do with role and vulnerable function.
Procrastination, not taking showers, not brushing teeth, not cleaning the room -> weak and unvalued
Problems in social situations -> weak and unvalued

[Trevor]

Yeah, it's getting a bit strange. What are we up to now, five? Zed, tuturututu, electric sheep, you, me...

You can freely add labcoat to the list.

[krieger]

Procrastination, not taking showers, not brushing teeth, not cleaning the room -> weak and unvalued

INFjs do not have problems with any of this, in my experience. They have something neat-freaky about them.

How any of this is related to Se is a bit dubious to begin with. More like unvalued Te with a bit of weak Si mixed in.

I brush my teeth daily, keep my room acceptably clean (although pretty disorganized) and take somewhat regular showers. I do procrastinate a lot and am in a general sense lazy.

(I will not respond politely to any post suggesting I am not INTj. Time to move beyond these stupid incrimination games.)

[The Exception]

INFjs do not have problems with any of this, in my experience. They have something neat-freaky about them.

How any of this is related to Se is a bit dubious to begin with. More like unvalued Te with a bit of weak Si mixed in.

I brush my teeth daily, keep my room acceptably clean (although pretty disorganized) and take somewhat regular showers. I do procrastinate a lot and am in a general sense lazy.

(I will not respond politely to any post suggesting I am not INTj. Time to move beyond these stupid incrimination games.)

I am somewhat on the neat-freaky side. I never used to be that way prior to college, so its more of a learned behavior. I like being able to find what I need. I used to frequently lose things like keys until I set up systems for myself. By always putting them away and in the same spot when not using them, I've managed to overcome this problem.

Alot of the neatness comes from aestethics rather than pure utility. I get grossed out by too much dirt, dust, grime, etc. I remember watching a couple episodes of on YouTube and how grossed out I was over the state of these peoples' houses. How do people let it get so out control I have to wonder.

I shower daily and brush my teeth 2-3 times a day. Once in a while on a day off from work when I don't have anywhere to go, I might skip it. But never for more than one day in a row. I'd feel too dirty.

I do relate somewhat to the procrastination part and the general laziness part. If I'm not careful, I'm prone to wasting the day away in front of the computer.

[cracka]

Ugh, shows like that and "Hoarders" make me actually feel dirty just watching them...haha.

[Creepy-bg]

I feel so sad for those people on the Hoarders show. some of them are in so much pain and isolation because of their sickness.

I'm sure that all of you neat freaks would spaz out in my room. I'm not a hoarder though, just fuckin lazy which is kinda funny being a speed freak and all.

[xerx]

Not in reference to hoarders, but to people who live alone when they're old. I feel sorry for them, but maybe sometimes they deserve it. Maybe they were total bitches early in life and now they're paying the price.

I worked a pizza delivery job where this old lady would try to give me super creepy hugs and ask if I'd stay longer just to talk, because she needed a friend. Then I found out that her husband left her and her kids refuse to even acknowledge her for some reason.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Krig the Viking]

You can freely add labcoat to the list.

How very peculiar...

[Creepy-bg]

Not in reference to hoarders, but to people who live alone when they're old. I feel sorry for them, but maybe sometimes they deserve it. Maybe they were total bitches early in life and now they're paying the price.

I worked a pizza delivery job where this old lady would try to give me super creepy hugs and ask if I'd stay longer just to talk, because she needed a friend. Then I found out that her husband left her and her kids refuse to even acknowledge her for some reason.

yeah. still, no matter what they may have done to deserve it, their situation sucks and they're living with that pain.

[1981slater]

The current situation: procrastination. I ignore very important tasks until the very last minute. I write essays for Varsity the morning they must be handed in. Usually, whenever I have a list of things to do on a particular day, I spend the entire day thinking about the best way to go about doing those things, and then I revise the plan, over and over, and never get to work. I guess this is the result of overused Ti killing off my Se .

I think it is weak Se & strong Ne

Then there are the social aspects. Example : I usually don't greet people, because I don't know what the etiquette is, when to greet, and when not to? I've never spoken to this person before, so do I do it now or not? Even if I decide to greet, I then have to will myself to do it, and most often fail. Can I blame this on weak Fi and Se ? Or is it just because I need to seriously get out more?

Weak Fi, being very young

I need to take more showers, and not forget to brush my teeth.

My room is an epic mess.

Oink, oink

I was normal... well, almost normal a few years ago, though.

A radioactive spider bit you?

Here is what I think happened, in light of the new ideas I've come across on this forum. I was quite heavily infatuated with an ESE girl. I was rejected by her, but I guess being the only Fe-ESE girl I've ever gotten to know I really found it hard to forget her. I would sit around for hours, trying to figure a way out of the situation, how to win her over, why I was different from the jocks she would date... argh! This was the aim of my life for a year and a half. Excessive use of Ti?

Perhaps my Se weakened way too much during this time?

I guess most people have undergone a situation like this to some extent!

My mother is an INFj. Could her strong Fi coupled with the fact that I have a rather large extended family, which meant a whole lot of having to be polite and mannered growing up, have anything to do with the fact that Fi causes me so much stress?

EIIs can be a pain in the neck when giving advice

Lastly, I make use of excessive smileys on web forums. Does part of me think being a little ESE is going to help me socially?

Developing one's weak functions is great, so you don't blunder over and over. It is called self-dualization, I think: healthy people "become" their duals as they grow up.

If you can help me, I will be greatly indebted to you.

You sound LII? Maybe
Ne ego? sure!
Ti ego? probably
Introverted, rational? I think so
Extroverted, irrational? I think not

[youfloweryourfeast]

Yes, I’m not an LII but EII, how ever I had some of these struggles. I never had much issues with my relationships or as you said about getting along others. And I had a similar situation, I would not use my time wisely and basically sleepwalk through life. I also would put off doing basic things like school, cleaning, and taking care of myself. I don’t think your an ILI, though ILIs are also prone to self indulging in thingsthey don’t really ignore reality. It seems they are still able to get real life things done even if it they don’t give all their effort.