Removed at User Request
Removed at User Request
Pinnochio, you have answered a lot, here. I hope you will be happy to go a little further.
If you were projecting, what would be required for you to become aware of it?Originally Posted by Pinocchio
The quesion had nothing to do with statistical probabilities. It was to determine what the question meant to you, that was my motive. You made the connection with statistics.
Although I admit I could have perhaps phrased the question a little better.
(Thank you for conceding that I'm weak non-valuing Se by the way, although I'm prob role rather than polr).
I'll leave this for now.
IEE-Ne
Reasons I Believe Marie84 is EII:
1. Marie is very good at typing people and displays an accurate understanding of socionics theory, making it unlikely that she has mistyped herself.
1a. Specifically, she displays a solid and intimate understanding of the EII type, which would not be likely if she were basing her observations on someone who was not EII (i.e., herself).
2. Her writings on ESEs show that she definitely does not respond to their Fe as well as I do.(EII > LII)
3. Marie tends to phrase her thoughts as tenative propositions, not absolute statements of fact. (Ne>Se) (e.g. "maybe..." "seems to..." "tends to..." "I think..." "I can see how...")
4. Marie consistently dislikes those on this board who are too aggressive and harsh (Se PoLR).
5. Likewise, Marie has no qualms about labeling people "rude" or "demeaning", which I as an LII would not feel as confident doing. (Fi > Ti)
6. When not dealing with rude and aggressive people, she is uniformly polite and well-mannered. (Fi)
7. She consistently displays affinity for a loose, open atmosphere where Ne possibilities are free to be explored. (Ne > Se)
8. She sometimes reminds me of my EII mom.
From what I can tell, most of the "pro-LSI" evidence is either not true, or based on observations of Marie in "argument mode", which of course would include most of her interactions with Cyclops and Pinocchio. "Argument mode" is of course not an EII's normal mode of behaviour, and is only triggered as a response to others' aggression.
I also find it interesting that TiSe is EII's Super-Ego, but I don't know what relevance that might have.
Quaero Veritas.
Pinocchio's type is spelled out on his signature and projected all over the forum.
Correct and whether he has a userlist has nothing to do with him being mistyped.
I will be clearer, this is a thread for those who are mistyped or misidentified.
It is my suspician that Pinocchio is mistyped. The post was independent of yours and was in keeping with the threads title rather than as a follow on from yours.
That is all.
No problem, I did not include a frame of reference. I would have drawn the same conclusion you did had our roles been reversed.
Removed at User Request
Removed at User Request
Pinocchio.
Although you do not consciously realise that you project, you do. And on each occasion you involuntarily disclose information about yourself. Every time you make an assumption about anothers thoughts or motives, you are really telling everyone something about yourself.
You have already told everyone your true type. I will leave it for today, however reply back if you are interested in discussing the matter and we can look at what you have told us tomorrow?
You are not ILE.
Last edited by somavision; 01-31-2010 at 05:41 PM.
IEE-Ne
I would like to hear several reasons as to how I am my own conflictor.
Well, i'm not so convinced of this. A recent example of the sort of thinking she applies when typing (there's plenty of it) is for instance ESTj's - as far as she's concerned ALL ESTj's are active, busy people, never sit down, even when they are home they are still doing things (this can be pulled from the thread in Any Relationships - about the desert island, as I recall). Basically - Marie84 backs this up by applying the formula of how EJ's "behave" and also something to do with pulling up a quote from the wikisocions Te description of LSI's.
Now, as numbers and myself (and perhaps Diana) pointed out - ESTj's can and indeed are often lazy, spending time doing nothing, going home and sitting on their asses despite having chores to be done, they actually exist. Indeed, as much as being lazy can be a personality aspect, one can also perhaps attribute it to Si - relaxing, taking it easy. So basically - how the types actually behave IRL is different than the formulas she applies using the socionics reference material - visa vie - lazy ESTj's can't exist, visa vie, I use a different version of socionics so my typings are bull etc...
Also - you see the way she has access to so much reference material, stuff that I wouldn't even think of, that's often a Ti version of referencing material when it goes into Se. They use the existing information and that's the "laws" and don't deviate from it. You can see it at work when an LSI sticks to an existing procedure even if it's not working because "that's how it's done" or even perhaps a more "stereotypical" LSI, eg a referee who keeps referring to the rules - like subset paragraph of etc. ... so it shall be written, so it shall be done ... this is how she applies socionics, references for instance what's quoted in the Te part of an LSI description.
In some ways it does produce effective results for typing, but it's a formula approach and she sticks to it rigidly. Tell me how many INFj's you know who stick to logical referencing so strongly - something that they should be uncomfortable with, and also, an INFj who doesn't see past these reference materials and fails to think of things in terms of human potential - she takes the human aspect out of typing by her "mechanical" process of typing.
When someones read up so much about a type, it's easy to go through the motions of what that person is supposed to behave like, unfortunately, although it can be deceiving, the true ego strengths show through (like above)1a. Specifically, she displays a solid and intimate understanding of the EII type, which would not be likely if she were basing her observations on someone who was not EII (i.e., herself).
Could you show them? I recall her seeming to have some strange views on Fe like Fe types can't have deep conversations (which isn't true) and indeed they were disputed by others - not me (I think leckysupport disputed her view at one point recently) but as usual, she sticks to her guns! :-)2. Her writings on ESEs show that she definitely does not respond to their Fe as well as I do.
I'm not sure about this, i'm not a psychologist but maybe she's shy. From a socionic and people perspective, you could say that she speaks that way to those who she sees above the "heirarchy" like maybe you, but those who she sees beneath - myself, pinnochio, maybe others, she's not as tentative!3. Marie tends to phrase her thoughts as tenative propositions, not absolute statements of fact. (Ne>Se) (e.g. "maybe..." "seems to..." "tends to..." "I think..." "I can see how...")
Ti with Se can also play a "tactical game" of maneuvering themself the right way - Se isn't all about brute force, until they sufficiently smell blood, they can gauge how much force should be applied.
She likes somavision/thepenetrator, i'd hardly call the penetrator or somavision a shrinking violet :-o4. Marie consistently dislikes those on this board who are too aggressive and harsh (Se PoLR).
On the other hand, this is because Ne/Si stay more intune with possibilities, perhaps she's able to decide so quickly due to being Se/Ni5. Likewise, Marie has no qualms about labeling people "rude" or "demeaning", which I as an LII would not feel as confident doing. (Fi > Ti)
I don't think this is a case for Fi, perhaps i'm wrong, but MOST people are polite and well mannered if you play the way they like (which is usually mutual respect, i'd imagine, or maybe something else)6. When not dealing with rude and aggressive people, she is uniformly polite and well-mannered. (Fi)
I disagree with this, on socionics.com, there was a new way of looking at F that was suggested, she was vehemently opposed to it because it wasn't written in any resources yet, basically, to me it was an opposition to a new way of looking at an existing thing - which is Ne - as that's her PoLR, she would of course see it as worthless. INFj's, if they don't agree with something, they tend to still offer something positive (naturally appreciating the Ne, and for themselves not being rude to dismiss something so off handedly that someone else has spent time producing) so in effect, nothing positive suggested, but not even consideration towards the "feelings" (if indeed it did bother them) of the person involved. She responds with logic first and "F" as an afterthought.7. She consistently displays affinity for a loose, open atmosphere where Ne possibilities are free to be explored. (Ne > Se)
Don't know how well you know Marie84, it is just someone on the internet, presumably you don't know her personally?8. She sometimes reminds me of my EII mom.
This goes back into your habit of misconstruing what people say. Yes, I said that LSE's tend to be more constantly restless though I never said they don't rest or never procrastinate.
It's Te seeking, as written by a Te dominant http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-question.htmlAlso - you see the way she has access to so much reference material, stuff that I wouldn't even think of, that's often a Ti version of referencing material when it goes into Se. They use the existing information and that's the "laws" and don't deviate from it. You can see it at work when an LSI sticks to an existing procedure even if it's not working because "that's how it's done" or even perhaps a more "stereotypical" LSI, eg a referee who keeps referring to the rules - like subset paragraph of etc. ... so it shall be written, so it shall be done ... this is how she applies socionics, references for instance what's quoted in the Te part of an LSI description.
To Fe-Ti, it looks like Fi-Te will only listen to specific sources or individuals, so "biased" towards them, or "narrow-minded" or "naive".
To Fi-Te, it looks like Fe-Ti will only listen to what confirms what they already think - so, again "narrow-minded", or "circular thinking".
This is also a good example of how differently you and I approach Socionics, I stick to (what I see as) reliable sources whereas you tend to be open to information that suits your own understanding, the former being a Fi/Te bias and the latter a Ti/Fe one
Interesting enough, my interaction with a Te creative, Niffweed, (ILI) as well as his perception of me seems to be radically different to how you view and interact with me.
My own impression is that you find my tendency to psychoanalyze as being logical and tactical, or specifically a "Ti" tendency, which I view as Ne+Fi. I know I also tend to stifle Fe, which is probably apparent in my posts and makes me seem cold.
Fi dominance is not about warm, happy, positive tones, that's Fe. I'm not going to add fluff to my posts to make you emotionally comfortable, sorry, but I just don't care for that, I find it manipulative and insincere
It's fine if you want to see me as LSI, just as I see you as Fe/Ti valuing, and neither you or I will likely ever agree with each other on this since we both see the other as approaching Socionics from opposing angles
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?8. She sometimes reminds me of my EII mom.
You know, if I stated I was a Beta ST and you met me in person you'd probably lol. It'd look like a kitten trying to be seen as a lion, "RRR RRRR feerz my wrath! grawllllll!I also find it interesting that TiSe is EII's Super-Ego, but I don't know what relevance that might have.........*please don`t crush me*
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Removed at User Request
Well, we could dig out the quotes, as I said it's a recent example of many of the structured process you employ. We'll see if Krig or anyone else has any reasonable queries about my post to him, then take it from there.
Let's say that Expat's (who's not any authority in socionics, he's just a guy that posted in work breaks or whatever just like the rest of us, is correct).It's Te seeking, as written by a Te dominant http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-question.html
To Fe-Ti, it looks like Fi-Te will only listen to specific sources or individuals, so "biased" towards them, or "narrow-minded" or "naive".
To Fi-Te, it looks like Fe-Ti will only listen to what confirms what they already think - so, again "narrow-minded", or "circular thinking".
This is also a good example of how differently you and I approach Socionics, I stick to (what I see as) reliable sources whereas you tend to be open to information that suits your own understanding, the former being a Fi/Te bias and the latter a Ti/Fe one
This:
To Fi-Te, it looks like Fe-Ti will only listen to what confirms what they already think - so, again "narrow-minded", or "circular thinking".
Could be said apply to you, as you only listen to information from the sources which confirms what you already think about socionics, the types etc, and it's the stumbling block in that whenever new information is presented to you, you can't use it because it disagrees with whatever socionics is - by your interpretation.
Niffweeds type is far from certain, however I don't think i'd be happy basing my interaction with an angry angsty teenager as anything to go by, but again, here you apply the formula - Niffweed, who you type as Te creative - should have the same interaction with me if I am Te creative. How is that not a logical approach?Interesting enough, my interaction with a Te creative, Niffweed, (ILI) as well as his perception of me seems to be radically different to how you view and interact with me.
An F type (or a reasonable type indeed) would consider the obvious things of personality differences, and all sorts of other things.
Perhaps you could elaborate on this?My own impression is that you find my tendency to psychoanalyze as being logical and tactical, or specifically a "Ti" tendency, which I view as Ne+Fi. I know I also tend to stifle Fe, which is probably apparent in my posts and makes me seem cold.
I have no problems with people behaving in this fashion, the problem is that I don't trust you - and rightly so, and that you don't show empathy, but you show logic after logic, and also contempt.Fi dominance is not about warm, happy, positive tones, that's Fe. I'm not going to add fluff to my posts to make you emotionally comfortable, sorry, but I just don't care for that, I find it manipulative and insincere
I think that some typings you do are good, however I know that i'll never convince you of being LSI, i'll just have to see how my points are responded to by Krig and perhaps some other people, i've always said I could be wrong, but... I see plenty of logic in you, and I really struggle to understand how someone could have such a confidence in their weakest function, if you are INFj. And that confidence is displayed in how you debate and hold your ground very well with various T types on the forums.It's fine if you want to see me as LSI, just as I see you as Fe/Ti valuing, and neither you or I will likely ever agree with each other on this since we both see the other as approaching Socionics from opposing angles
Let us hope that he and others give their opinion without feeling they have to say a certain thing, as it won't crush you.You know, if I stated I was a Beta ST and you met me in person you'd probably lol. It'd look like a kitten trying to be seen as a lion, "RRR RRRR feerz my wrath! grawllllll!
But to point out - not all Beta ST's are scary, unless you're joking here, maybe that's a stereotype of yours that stops you re-typing yourself. Indeed, I know a young ISTj girl at work who's very obliging to people and doesn't cause any trouble.
Last edited by Cyclops; 02-01-2010 at 11:43 AM.
Removed at User Request
If Expat isn't any authority in Socionics and if niffweed is just an angry, angsty teenager, let's not bother talking at all!
Pinnochio, you like basically nobody else on this forum are obsessed with "proper Socionics" and making "everything correspond to established data".
What makes you think that "encyclopaedias and dictionaries" are established sources btw?
Removed at User Request
Pinocchio, why do you always insist on writing in American English?
I thought about putting this in as edit in my post, but decided to take it out and post a sort of random observation on a seperate post, for sake of ... what's the word, anyway whatever it is when things follow on...oh, progression of discussion, sounds fair enough.
LATER EDIT:
As a general note, I thought it might be worth pointing out to whoever is interested, that this above seperation of Ti/Fe and Fi/Te is in a sense, just a dichotomy, and there's plenty dichotomies, like most dichotomies, they don't always apply 100% and indeed real people living actual lives can find themselves falling somewhere in the middle, or even the opposite depending what's been dealt, so maybe you have a point Marie84, that we won't agree on socionics, because I still remember the human touch that people are people first and that type and personality, although linked, are at the same time still seperate. Perhaps in a way my debating on socionics forums is time not wisely spent, as I remember that people can't always be boxed so minutely, and hence I wouldn't take the Expat divide as a black and white - but then, wasn't there a thread recently where a you tube LSI was talking about how they see things in black and white, which is what you do with socionics? I suppose it's looking to see what things are more applicable and when they are applicable than others, anyway, random in-a-way edit observation concluded.
I suppose I think it's interesting again how you produce your reference material (i've never known as INFj who's as good at it as that, but it's something that LSI's can do pretty well), and use tiny parts of it as if it describes everything, is this some sort of S with T - perhaps even S with Ti way of thinking? Helps ISTj's see in black and white (like that LSI on you tube on the other thread mentioned that they do) ... Looking simply at the small details rather than everthing that goes with it? Dunno.
Removed at User Request
you're an ILE and you use a spellchecker?
Removed at User Request
But why do you place such a high value on spelling accurately (albeit in American English)? I don't have a spellchecker.Yes, ILEs aren't nerds because they're smart
And where did you get the spellchecker from?
Removed at User Request
But you didn't need to get a spellchecker in order to get your points across.
Who is this ILE you speak of? You obviously trust this individual a lot to have got you your spellchecker.
Actually, I thought I would make an observation on comparisons.
It seems this maritsa is an EII. I don't necessarily agree with her typings, she doesn't display Fe in her posts, yet she is kind and considerate despite even some of the attempts there's been to goad her. Furthermore, she's studied socioinics a bit, but her logic is still a bit shaky - she can make mistakes with it, it's clearly not in her ego block.
So from a functional point of view - look at the differences in logic skills between Marie84 and maritsa - Marie84's is much stronger, and she's much more confident using it as a tool of discussion. However look at the Fi of maritsa - she's much more complacent and easier to get on with, yet there's no Fe. Maritsa's demonstration of Fi is much stronger and an ego function in compared to Marie84, who, as i've said, doesn't really understand it as an ego function or use it at all.
Two INFj's, two both studied socionics, possibly similar ages, yet the difference in how they use their functions - which is a large part of what socionics is about, is night and day. When you consider the differences like this, there's no way Marie84 has weak T and strong Fi.
I don't think you can say that Marie is clearly a T Ego just because she has stronger logic than Maritsa and you for example.
Cyclops,
I realize that I have a tendency to follow information from individuals that I see as truthful, that's why I posted that link, to show the Te/Fi biases in filtering information and how it differs from the Ti/Fe one.
You don't have to agree with me, or where I get my information, but it's a look as to where I'm coming from.
To add to Diana's post, which I agree with, I'm not confident in Ti/Te, that's why I take my information from (what I view as) reliable sources, rather than creating my own terminology for things.
In terms of maritsa, I'm not even sure she's even for real, never mind an EII. If anything, she reminds me of (a seemingly less intelligent) version of JuJu in her confidence to quickly type people based on little information.
But this is, of course, just a tentative observation
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Pinocchio and Cyclops are both LSI's. I know why they have difficulty accepting their type, they may not be aware of it, but so do they.
I don't know about that Big Pen, sounds a bit speculative to me.
IEE-Ne
Removed at User Request
Last edited by Pied Piper; 02-01-2010 at 05:19 PM.
Where did she say she didn't understand the theory??
Removed at User Request
That is not the same as saying that she doesn't understand the theory.
And calling Marie a "poor girl" is rather an Aristocratic statement don't you think?
You make some good points Diana.
I agree with the Ne difference, as you mentioned. I think it's been spoke before that LSI's and LII's do different things with the information - not that it was universally discussed on the thread. That is, LSI's are generally those that reference large amounts of information, and LII's due to their Ne produce something new with the information. I can't remember the exact phrasing as to how the differences were, but it was something to do with cataloguing/referencing.
To maybe demonstrate what I mean, I thought i'd have a look at some of the materials myself, maybe this helps:
socionics.com-LSI
Which is kinda how I view how Marie84 is with the huge amount of reference material she refers to.ISTjs like to collect reference material, encyclopaedias and dictionaries.
LSI Ti - Wikisocion
Not just the bolded part - but more of it too, she's got a great command of the system and structure of socionics.LSIs have a strong command of how various systems, structures, and hierarchies around them work, and always have a clear idea of how to implement them and improve them. LSIs quickly and easily determine what is correct and incorrect according to the systems they are familiar with.
LSIs tend to logically analyze just about everything — even close relationships. LSIs view their partners and other members of their household as part of a system which should have a certain structure and order to it. Everything in this system should run like clockwork — scheduling, daily routines, responsibilities in the relationship, and household management.
LSIs seek to attain an important role in an important system and to maintain and perfect it — often becoming the guardian or watchdog of the system.
LSIs do not often think about the ethics of the systems they maintain. Instead, they discuss the ethics of other systems using the language and customs of their own systems as truth, and make value judgments accordingly.
As a side note, previously on socionics.com, i'd made a thread about a subtype theory, some time ago. Marie84 analysed it and pointed out where it was wrong - how it didn't make sense from a logical point of view. This was one of my first interactions with Marie84, and i'll admit I was taken aback by how good she was at dissecting it, as I was basically looking at how people I know interact - a top down approach. At that point I didn't have any thoughts on her type, just that her Ti was good - and she was right, the sub type idea I mentioned didn't make sense and probably is incorrect.
EII Te - Wikisocion
I'm not sure where it says here that their Te manifests by the way Marie84 displays it (well, it doesn't). Indeed, that aside, - what concerns me as well, is that not only does she have the ability to pull this information through (that on it's own could be said to be weak but valued Te) - but - she has the ability to use it very expertly. Not only does no one else who's Te produce information like this on the forum, but I don't think i've encountered - nor do I think socionics theory or practice agrees, that someone has such an expert use of their DS function, it's like me being able to debate someone with Ne and say that their Ne is wrong etc, the capacity to do that in an individual with their DS function isn't there.EIIs have a great admiration for people who are able to get things done neatly and efficiently in the outside world. They themselves consistently forget to consider whether their activities are actually achieving their intended goal, whether their time spent is bringing worthy proceeds, and whether their activities are organized in the most rational way. They subconsciously expect and appreciate it when others take interest in the effectiveness of their activities and helps to take an objective look at what they are doing.
EIIs are usually very curious and thirsty for information. When they have an interest in a particular topic or subject, they will try their best to read anything and everything about it in order to gain a thorough understanding.
They are willing to listen to anyone who is knowledgeable or has a brilliant idea to share regardless of whether that individual is an expert or authority in his/her field since they strongly believe that there are many perspectives in an issue.
EII - Ti
This is something which i've not seen eye to eye with Marie84, INFj's i've interacted with tend to follow this pretty well, they're aware that people are individuals and have talents and always consider the human dimension, when Marie84 talks about socionics and types people - they've got to adhere to the prescription of the cold logic of what it says about the types and how they all add up together, and from what i've seen from conversations, she's against the human factor.EIIs are not easily able to abstract themselves from the human dimension and apply "cold" logic. When they try to do this, they easily become unsure if their reasoning is correct.
EIIs feel that not everything can be classified under the system since everything has its unique individual attributes.
Indeed, a previous conversation I had was how socionics can limit personal growth - can't we be more than what it says we are? My own interactions with INFj's - and what it says here, tends to be that they think so, but, this line of thinking was an alien approach to Marie84, perhaps it was just a miscommunication.
And yeah - a lot of Ti of the ISTj is using "authoritave" information. ESTj's can use authoritave information too, but...it's more in a sense of does it work or not, that is, with it being dynamic, the rules and the information changes, hence it is more applicable as a business logic, for efficiency and such. ISTj's tend to hold what it's said in official channels with more "stubborness" - ie we do it this way, doesn't matter if it's busy or etc because this is the system and we play it by the book. ESTj's change the book - Te being dynamic - in terms of what it does with the "facts".
So, that aside, perhaps the quotes themselves alude to how things play out with Marie84
OK, I hope i'm not getting it wrong.
To add to Diana's post, which I agree with, I'm not confident in Ti/Te, that's why I take my information from (what I view as) reliable sources, rather than creating my own terminology for things.
She may be a joke account, and thank you saying.... the rest... and maybe this is just my own observation, but dunno why you had to include that with a dig at JuJu, it just seems a bit of a cruel thing to do for EII's I know, it sounds more like someone with creative Se would do, imo.
So to carry it on, maybe I shouldn't, but a mixture of my own thoughts/observations and also a quote from wiki about EII's: ... But - maybe you didn't mean to have a dig at him, I don't know, but..although you may disagree, there's a difference between saying things "as they are" and Fi, Fi has a lot of heart, which although may not be applicable to what you're doing, they have a lot more tact. They might think - well, let's not have a dig at such and such, because:and we know from previous experience that JuJu can be a bit sensitive to such stuff.
You seem pretty good at putting people down - and I don't mean that offensively, but you think i'm right? (it's not necessarily just done in anger then, like for instance at Pinnochio or indeed myself).
Marie didn't include a dig at JuJu, she said "she reminds me of (a seemingly less intelligent) version of JuJu in her confidence to quickly type people based on little information."
Removed at User Request
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
