Can we talk about Ti please?

[redbaron]

Discuss the differences you've seen between Ti creative (XLE) and Ti base (LXI). give examples.

How does Ti dual-seeking (EXE) manifest itself, specifically? What exactly are they after? Examples would be helpful!

[Wynch]

LXI uses Ne or Se to help build structural models of external logic(Ti). XLE uses Ti (structural logic) to order a series of Ne or Se perceptions.

I think of it along the lines of information processing goals.

An IJ has the goal of processing the variables of a perceived structure and an LXI has the more specific goal of processing the variables of a perceived explicit logical structure. An LII does that by looking at the possible variables of Ne and an LSI does that by looking at the concrete variables of Se.

An EP has the goal of processing the structure of a perceived set of variables. An XLE has the goal of processing the explicit logical structure of their perceived set of variables. An ILE has the goal of processing the explicit logical structure of perceived possible variables (Ne) and an SLE has the goal of processing the explicit logical structure of perceived concrete variables.

For a more concrete example of Ti, consider a logic tree. A good example of a logic tree exists in Linguistics. When breaking down the structure of a sentence you start with the basic phrase, break that down to clauses which can consist of noun clauses, verb clauses, adjective clauses and prepositional clauses. Next you can break every clause down to sub-clauses and sub-sub-clauses and eventually down to the individual parts of speech verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs, pronouns, prepositions, conjunctions and interjections. Certainly, each part leads to the next, but Ti breaks it down into a complete structure. An LXI will be more concerned with studying the parts to establish an over-arching law, and an XLE will create a law to understand the parts.

A good way to think of the different approaches is to consider something that Labcoat said in the Alpha forum. An LII will try to find an answer so they know how to solve a problem in the future while an ILE will solve the problem again and again every time it shows up. In this way, the LII is looking for the laws (Ti) so they will always know what to do when encountering a certain set of variables (Ne) whereas the ILE is encountering a certain set of variables (Ne) and then finding the law (Ti) to using them. This also becomes a part of the IJ, decisive, "order" versus the EP, indecisive, "disorder". IJs become more proactive while EPs become more reactive.

As for EXEs, I'm going to leave that for an EXE to describe. I feel I've done my job

BTW, I'm not all-together sold on my wording wrt processing goals. If someone has a better way to word it, I would definitely like to hear it. I'm kind of making due atm.

[silverchris9]

Ummm... ok, let's try.

First of all, Ti is external statics of fields. This means that Ti is interested in what is permanent about explicit or observable relationships. To me, the perfect exemplification of Ti external statics of fields is a basic physics equation, such as the universal gravitation law (F = (G x m1 x m2)/(r^2)), or P = IV or P = IR^2. All of these physics equations are surprisingly accurate models of how given physical (external) variables interact (fields) in all cases whatsoever (statics), at least until you get into relativity and stuff. That's the basic information content of Ti: how external systems always work. Now, that being said, this focus on theoretical models of external systems, models wherein you can plug in one set of information/data and get another, results in certain behavioral features, which of course feature more prominently in Ti-leading types than in Ti-creative types, and which I will try to detail below.

Ti-leading types are generally much more ordered, organized, and have a degree of rigidity that ILEs and SLEs do not. This does not by any means mean that they have an organized house, or an organized desk, etc. They often (usually?) don't. It does mean that they have a fairly organized way of thinking or going about things. Ti divides the world into internally coherent systems (which necessarily preclude certain things, which is why Ti leading types have either Se or Ne as their polr), and is always fairly certain about the "right" answer, and if not certain about the right answer, certain that there is a right answer that can be reached. Obviously, they are capable of putting certain questions (e.g. how many planets are there outside the observable universe? what was the precise date on which the Iliad was written, and by whom?) into an "unknowable" or even "irrelevant" box, but even then they have to make a distinction between "knowable" and "unknowable", which at least in some small way makes the unknowable thing known, at least insofar as we know that it is unknowable. It is this extremely organized way of thinking that comes so naturally to Ti-leading types. A well-constructed device (meaning well-organized) can bring a Ti-leading type pleasure in the same way that a well constructed sentence (meaning well-organized) can bring an Fe-leading type pleasure (or any type, but I hope you see the connection). Ti delights in distinctions, because distinctions make things more explicit, logical, and clear. This is why analytic philosophy, especially logic, generally takes a Ti bent (continental philosophy, or at least what I know of it, in my opinion takes more of a Ni, gamma NT bent). Aristotle's laws of logic are pure Ti, as pure as the models of relationships found in the laws of physics: A is A, A is not B, Either A or B, etc. All of these are actually *massive* assumptions, but they create an internally consistent system, which, even if it cannot accommodate all the data of real life, can accommodate an awful lot of it.

Now, XLEs, on the other hand, are not as focused on the Ti model of external relationships. They are more focused on the perceptions out of which the models are made. They are concerned with taking their perceptions (either Ne or Se), and creating an explicit Ti system of inputs and outputs not as an end in themselves, but in order to go back out into the world armed with a more explicit set of knowledge, what to do in a given situation, etc. (this may be more true of SLEs than ILEs). For instance, an SLE will often encounter a challenge in life, then, internally (this is an introverted information element after all) think of an explicit logical system covering all examples of a given phenomenon, an overarching law as mn0good said. Then, he or she will use this explicit logical system to understand the situation. He or she will not, generally, just go out and do exactly what the system says he or she should do in every case. XLEs have much more room for adapting on the fly than XLIs, in general. Rather, he or she will use the understanding gained from examining the phenomenon in a logical way as an aid, as extra information, if you will, in confronting the problem the next time. Obviously, I'm not as interested in ILEs, so I don't have as many examples of what they're like, but I think there's a parallel for them.

An LXI will be more concerned with studying the parts to establish an over-arching law, and an XLE will create a law to understand the parts.

This is also a great point. For an LSI or LII, the goal is the law, the goal is to understand the experience or phenomenon; that is the end-in-itself. For an SLE or ILE, the law simply allows us greater understanding (and, accordingly, greater or better experience) of the parts.

I'm not really sure about Ti dual-seeking either. I relate Ti more to Ni than to Fe, so I'm not really sure how it works for Fe-leading types. I guess Fe-leading types really like an explicit set of rules that tells them what to do (not necessarily needing the volitional pressure to do these things that an Ni-leading types would need, but just the existence of a set of rules: when to do this, when to do that, and one that serves their goals).

[Timeless]

Short answer:



His album is pretty cool.

[redbaron]

This is also a great point. For an LSI or LII, the goal is the law, the goal is to understand the experience or phenomenon; that is the end-in-itself. For an SLE or ILE, the law simply allows us greater understanding (and, accordingly, greater or better experience) of the parts.

this is what I was thinking about I guess. good distinction.

*sigh* thanks you guys for your input. I don't know why I started this thread as I'm really bad at this type of analysis.

[silverchris9]

this is what I was thinking about I guess. good distinction.

*sigh* thanks you guys for your input. I don't know why I started this thread as I'm really bad at this type of analysis.

I'm glad if what I said helped at all, but honestly, you said at the beginning of the thread that you wanted examples, which I am really bad at giving, but I just plowed ahead with my theoretical whatevering anyway, because that's fun for me. But I realized it might not have been particularly helpful for you. That's all by way of saying, don't feel like you shouldn't have started the thread (insert smiley here)! Also, thanks.

I'll try to think of examples, but since I'm never 100% sure about people's socionics types (and have some trouble connecting specific behaviors to type), I don't know that I'll be able to come up with any decent ones.

[redbaron]

I'm glad if what I said helped at all, but honestly, you said at the beginning of the thread that you wanted examples, which I am really bad at giving, but I just plowed ahead with my theoretical whatevering anyway, because that's fun for me. But I realized it might not have been particularly helpful for you. That's all by way of saying, don't feel like you shouldn't have started the thread (insert smiley here)! Also, thanks.

I'll try to think of examples, but since I'm never 100% sure about people's socionics types (and have some trouble connecting specific behaviors to type), I don't know that I'll be able to come up with any decent ones.

fwiw, I always like your posts and understand and relate to them so thanks!

[Gilly]

For a more concrete example of Ti, consider a logic tree. A good example of a logic tree exists in Linguistics. When breaking down the structure of a sentence you start with the basic phrase, break that down to clauses which can consist of noun clauses, verb clauses, adjective clauses and prepositional clauses. Next you can break every clause down to sub-clauses and sub-sub-clauses and eventually down to the individual parts of speech verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs, pronouns, prepositions, conjunctions and interjections. Certainly, each part leads to the next, but Ti breaks it down into a complete structure. An LXI will be more concerned with studying the parts to establish an over-arching law, and an XLE will create a law to understand the parts.

I like this a lot, and your description of LXIs definitely correlates better to my own personal incorporation of Ti.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[thePirate]

You and mn0good make a good team so far because she knows an EIE likes to heard big words, even if empty of meaning (her mother is EIE).

thats a little uncalled for, you dont need to insult a whole group of people to make your point

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

My mom needs my dad to tell her the time, (well that's more like covering up her Ni polr), it's more like she wants a mental structure. Some sort of mental organization that introverts excel at, especially logical ones. 'Oh it's 7 pm it's time for dinner.' That might sound bland, but to an ESE that's kind of everything. It's so important to them. I'm an INFp so it's like 'Oh my god you alphas are such dorks. It's just dinner.' But to them it's important. Being on time for dinner.

Without that sort of framework and structure mum would go absolutely crazy with her extroversion, without the ability to be grounded.

It sounds as like you might have wanted some like super grand ideal perspective, something that was more 'interesting' than simply being on time for dinner. However, the reason I like socionics is that it's based on reality. It's like magic/reality all in one.

[redbaron]

My mom needs my dad to tell her the time, (well that's more like covering up her Ni polr), it's more like she wants a mental structure. Some sort of mental organization that introverts excel at, especially logical ones. 'Oh it's 7 pm it's time for dinner.' That might sound bland, but to an ESE that's kind of everything. It's so important to them. I'm an INFp so it's like 'Oh my god you alphas are such dorks. It's just dinner.' But to them it's important. Being on time for dinner.

Without that sort of framework and structure mum would go absolutely crazy with her extroversion, without the ability to be grounded.

It sounds as like you might have wanted some like super grand ideal perspective, something that was more 'interesting' than simply being on time for dinner. However, the reason I like socionics is that it's based on reality. It's like magic/reality all in one.

Naw, that's a great example! What I really wanted/needed was examples. Cause I can't think clearly without them. So thanks. Something funny--neither my ESE husband nor I wears a watch. So he's always saying "what time is it?" and I'm like "I dunno", thinking "what does it matter and why are you so obsessed with the time?" lol! He keeps telling me we need a clock in the family room even though there's a clock in the kitchen which is connected to the family room and you can see it from there. Anyway, your comment reminded me of that.

[Azeroffs]

My mom needs my dad to tell her the time, (well that's more like covering up her Ni polr), it's more like she wants a mental structure. Some sort of mental organization that introverts excel at, especially logical ones. 'Oh it's 7 pm it's time for dinner.' That might sound bland, but to an ESE that's kind of everything. It's so important to them. I'm an INFp so it's like 'Oh my god you alphas are such dorks. It's just dinner.' But to them it's important. Being on time for dinner.

Without that sort of framework and structure mum would go absolutely crazy with her extroversion, without the ability to be grounded.

It sounds as like you might have wanted some like super grand ideal perspective, something that was more 'interesting' than simply being on time for dinner. However, the reason I like socionics is that it's based on reality. It's like magic/reality all in one.

This isn't serious, is it? So, one can get dualized by wearing a watch?

[ArchonAlarion]

I think he meant that his mom likes to hear explicit verbalizations of a schedule, which may be vague, but having an ESE mother myself, I understand how this is type related. My mom is queen of the calendar. I can rely on her because she keeps track of dates, appointments, and logistical information. I think this is Si creative. It's like Si included in a linear-energetic (Ej) schema.

I must say though that I eat dinner whenever I want it, and I become annoyed when arbitrary timelines are forced on me for such trivial bs (luckily not much of an issue in my family).

[MatthewZ]

This thread reminds me of just how much of a chronomaniac I am. I've worn a watch since I was 12 and it bothers me to no end when I can't know, at any given moment, what time it is and if the plan in the back of my head is on schedule. I've been slightly relegated to timekeeper for this reason, but not too severely. Time is a nice little axis to organize things on. I'm not rigid on keeping to an arbitrary schedule, but I like to know where my time is going and when the next event is going to happen.

Timekeeping.

Although, I must confess that I've used a 2400hr clock so long that I'm never entirely sure if 12 AM or 12 PM means noon.

[redbaron]

This thread reminds me of just how much of a chronomaniac I am. I've worn a watch since I was 12 and it bothers me to no end when I can't know, at any given moment, what time it is and if the plan in the back of my head is on schedule. I've been slightly relegated to timekeeper for this reason, but not too severely. Time is a nice little axis to organize things on. I'm not rigid on keeping to an arbitrary schedule, but I like to know where my time is going and when the next event is going to happen.

Timekeeping.

Although, I must confess that I've used a 2400hr clock so long that I'm never entirely sure if 12 AM or 12 PM means noon.

this is kinda cute.

[Aiss]

Another one with ESE mom here. (Do ESE's tend to have more children? Or maybe mothers are more likely to seem ESE to their children?). I don't really get Ni as being associated with time, more like how things change, but she does have clocks in every room and yet is often surprised how late it is, so maybe there's something to it.

[Joy]

Ti creative types see Ti as something that can be manipulated for their use. They're aware of Ti structures and either use them to their advantage or decide that they're bullshit and ignore/challenge them.

[Jarno]

Discuss the differences you've seen between Ti creative (XLE) and Ti base (LXI). give examples.

How does Ti dual-seeking (EXE) manifest itself, specifically? What exactly are they after? Examples would be helpful!

Ti base are pigheaded, like and advocate and follow rules / laws, speculate a lot about things, see connections that are pretty far fetched, paranoid and perfectionists when unhealthy.

Ti creative, i don't know, don't really make an impact.

[MatthewZ]

Ti base are pigheaded, like and advocate and follow rules / laws, speculate a lot about things, see connections that are pretty far fetched, paranoid and perfectionists when unhealthy.

Ti creative, i don't know, don't really make an impact.

The description above misses the LXI essence of attempting to OPTIMIZE the rules. Ti base is more content to replace an obsolete or inefficient rule with a superior one. An LXI needs to see a rule as appropriate before advocating it/following it A Ti creative might be more inclined to merely find a flaw in a rule but not motion to find a replacement.

[Aiss]

Some thoughts that Ni people have: let's not start with this, it will bring us nowhere. Or how politics are doing is only going to turn out bad, cause these people will not like it and won't cooperate, so it's best not to go that direction. Entering a bar and noticing, this is going to become a brawl tonight.

Ti base are pigheaded, like and advocate and follow rules / laws, speculate a lot about things, see connections that are pretty far fetched, paranoid and perfectionists when unhealthy.

Methinks some people would call these Ni thoughts paranoid. And yes, that's partly what I meant by "how things change".

[redbaron]

fyi, mn0good's mother is ILI, not EIE.