Emotional side and expression of ILIs-INTps

[silverchris9]

Okay, I have a belief about ILIs that I would like opinions about. It seems to me that part of the way that Fe-polr manifests itself in ILIs is not so much a lack of emotion or excitement or whatever, but rather an emotional side (or a "crazy" side, if you prefer) that only comes out in very specific circumstances.

For instance, my good friend who I've typed as ILI says that she acts very silly around approximately three people, and really her best friend more than anyone else (also, there's a good chance they're duals, and I could totally buy this friend as my semi-dual, cause I was pretty into her for a few months, but was of course far too me-like to make any sort of move), but the rest of the time she comes off as serious, especially to people who don't know her, who often think she is arrogant or something like that until they get to know her and realize she's completely down to earth and funny and all that.

My other example is the poet Wallace Stevens, who I remain extremely inclined to type as ILI due to his great reticence and disinclination to be particularly social (in the gamma mode of "three people I really like is infinitely better than a party full of people only two of whom I like"), as well as the fact that he was an insurance executive for his entire life while simultaneously carrying on a career as the best American poet of the 20th century. And he never talked about his great poetic career at work. About half of his poems center on highly philosophical and theoretical analysis and presentation of ideas, a process he called "thinking in poetry." But the other half of his work is downright silly. For anyone who cares, I've posted an example at the bottom of this thread. So it's a similar thing; a silly, crazy side that barely ever gets to be seen by other people (at least in person).

Also, I've noticed that Fi is really good for ILIs; it seems like when they're sure they've built a bond of affection between them and another person, they're much more inclined to "open up," "be themselves," and all that.

So, thoughts?



Bantams in Pine Woods
by Wallace Stevens

Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan
Of tan with henna hackles, halt!

Damned universal cock, as if the sun
Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail.

Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal.
Your world is you. I am my world.

You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat!
Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines,

Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs,
And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos.

[Jarno]

For instance, my good friend who I've typed as ILI says that she acts very silly around approximately three people, and really her best friend more than anyone else (also, there's a good chance they're duals, and I could totally buy this friend as my semi-dual, cause I was pretty into her for a few months, but was of course far too me-like to make any sort of move), but the rest of the time she comes off as serious, especially to people who don't know her, who often think she is arrogant or something like that until they get to know her and realize she's completely down to earth and funny and all that.

this is very typical indeed. people have said that I change 'personality' at times. Businesslike at one time, and totally clown at another time.
I also have read this kind of behaviour for INTP's in MBTI descriptions.

Your remark about Fe might be true, but is not what I think is most evident part of Fe polr. Most distinct is the blunt way of handling people and situations, not caring whether you behave according the rules. Making jokes that are not suited, etc.

[silverchris9]

Your remark about Fe might be true, but is not what I think is most evident part of Fe polr. Most distinct is the blunt way of handling people and situations, not caring whether you behave according the rules. Making jokes that are not suited, etc.

Really? I read that as Fi-polr, actually. Maybe similarly inappropriate (i.e., not accomplishing one's goals with regards to interpersonal relations) behavior but inappropriate in different ways? But I do agree that what I said is more of a potential consequence of Fe-polr, not the primary manifestation thereof.

[Jarno]

Really? I read that as Fi-polr, actually. Maybe similarly inappropriate (i.e., not accomplishing one's goals with regards to interpersonal relations) behavior but inappropriate in different ways? But I do agree that what I said is more of a potential consequence of Fe-polr, not the primary manifestation thereof.

I don't like talking or defining IM. But what I often read is that Fe is defined consisting out of 2 things:

1 emotions in self and others
2 what roles people should play in a group

The number 2 thing was what I was referring to.

[717495]

This is a good start, I like it. It definitely goes with Fe-PoLR and Fi for me. I need that someone to channel my social aspect through, and present my real self, instead of being just socially awkward and shy. There is nothing like being with your best friend and being a totally different person than who you usually come across as. My father is surprized by how differently I react toward various people. Usually these are my closest friends and family members. Often I am very cold on the outside. If I do become socially warm towards strangers, it is usually because I have been talking with them, and I got to see who they're all about, if they come across as good or bad people, if they like me too, etc. It is all about the person. Sometimes when I'm really thinking about someone, I can tend to act like them.

[silverchris9]

Oh, good, I'm glad gammas are responding positively to this, because it helps me to defend my ILI typing for Wallace Stevens. Happyface.

[Mediator Kam]

I wanna be ILI.

[Gilly]

Sometimes when I'm really thinking about someone, I can tend to act like them.

Textbook Fe seeking.

[717495]

Textbook Fe seeking.

You're writing for socionics now Gilly? Let me know how it goes. Send me a copy.

[Reuben]

I'm identifying with what all the ILI's on this thread are saying, and currently I self-type ILI (this is not the major reason, but a critical reason).

BUT it used to be an established fact that whatever you guys were talking about was actually characteristically Ne (knowing the essence of people/mimicking them).

Also, the acting silly with only people you trust seems to be super-id Fe to me.

Which means, either everything is misinformation, or we're all Alpha NT.

[717495]

Acting silly has nothing to do with Fe. Fe dominants aren't characterized by their silliness. If anything Ni is about seeing the essence or something as it really is, in relation to trend. Ne is more about the possibilities, what could happen or what could be said, and dominants can be overzealously imaginative and lack focus on one idea, and have a way of quickly jumping from theme to theme and relating them together. Sometimes I'm utterly surprized by the smart ones, and what they're mentally capable of quickly picking up. From my experience they have trouble explaining something twice .

[ArchonAlarion]

ILI silliness is like a constant inside joke and a making of references that the in people can get.

4chan

The merriest fucking place in the world.


That is alpha humor. That's why i joke about boxxy, that's why people joke about the game,... in fact, i don't know if that's even type related, but if it is it is definitely not Gamma!

(note: you may know about memes and these incongruous inside jokes, but most of the world still doesn't and finding that shit funny is the same reason why people complain when their favorite musician becomes "too" popular)

[717495]

That pattern makes sense aixelsyd, at least in comparison to ILEs. I can't say for sure, but none I know are very into inside jokes, and there is that similar pattern in our interactions to what you're saying. As far as joke genre, not really type related, and one joke from another one can emphasize something very different, even if its based on a similar origin.

[ArchonAlarion]

You guys do realize that making such "inside jokes" relies on the same mechanisms as emotional expression, right?

[717495]

You guys do realize that making such "inside jokes" relies on the same mechanisms as emotional expression, right?

No, not really. Jokes aren't dependent upon ethics. Withholding information has nothing necessarily to do with emotional manipulation or expression. If it were, then we would be naturally emotionally expressive and seek jokes that were based on it. This whole topic in relating humor to the elements seems deconstructive, since nobody would agree with anyone anyway.

[ArchonAlarion]

Making irrelevant/incongruous references, allusions, implications assumes that the receiver can relate to the sent item and appreciate the feeling implied that is hidden behind its seeming absurdity. That is a deliverance of Fe on the wings of Ne. It's demonstration of feeling.

Just like dancing makes no sense (why are those people twirling about for no reason?) these jokes make no sense. They are still an expression of mood, a way to remember past associations and experience with that reference, etc.

[717495]

Yeah, it's just that your logic seems to perturb what I've observed about ILIs vs ILEs and LIIs. Fe with Ne related to allusions, or whatever. The line of reasoning doesn't seem to work in this case.

[ArchonAlarion]

So it's settled then, Jung is ILI.

[munenori2]

So it's settled then, Jung is ILI.

[AQ]

Okay, I have a belief about ILIs that I would like opinions about. It seems to me that part of the way that Fe-polr manifests itself in ILIs is not so much a lack of emotion or excitement or whatever, but rather an emotional side (or a "crazy" side, if you prefer) that only comes out in very specific circumstances.

The source of humour is Ni, not Fe gone wonky. Ni can see too many contradictions in a given situation and can find that funny/ironical/a source for sarcasm. (Ni-leading may also feel superior to those around for being able to spot irreconcilable components in a situation and then reconcile them.)

Ni coupled with Te, it produces objectivity: ILIs don't necessarily take their or others' situations seriously in a way that others may endorse as "normal".
ILIs would instinctively know how to better the situation and help the people involved in it, instead of joining the mob in shedding mass tears. So, this objectivity again is a source of humour -- when the rest of the world is worrying about something that the INTp deems "trivial" or "obvious".

Fe PoLR manifests itself in INTps by making them reject "superfluous" emotions. They wouldn't see a point in getting together a collective to weep about/cheer a situation when it is a short-term involvement and doesn't add to the "meaning" of the experience, except for experiencing the situation for its sake.
ILIs are highly orientated to this aspect (meaningfulness). This contrast is best illustrated in interactions with ESEs (who can engage in the situation just for its sake).

[Azeroffs]

4chan

The merriest fucking place in the world.


That is alpha humor. That's why i joke about boxxy, that's why people joke about the game,... in fact, i don't know if that's even type related, but if it is it is definitely not Gamma!

(note: you may know about memes and these incongruous inside jokes, but most of the world still doesn't and finding that shit funny is the same reason why people complain when their favorite musician becomes "too" popular)

Jesus.. if there is an alpha paradise, it's 4chan.

[AQ]

Forgot to add this in the last post: I had read somewhere that the Fe PoLR makes INTps crack up with laughter, i.e. they are unable to control their laughter, whereas LIIs manage to not "burst out" laughing like ILIs. Probably I read this on socionics.com...

Is this what u were referring to?

[silverchris9]

The source of humour is Ni, not Fe gone wonky. Ni can see too many contradictions in a given situation and can find that funny/ironical/a source for sarcasm. (Ni-leading may also feel superior to those around for being able to spot irreconcilable components in a situation and then reconcile them.)

Yes, but "Fe gone wonky" may be a part of why ILIs are disinclined to broadly share their humor with the world (as an IEI might), and instead act much more reserved around those with whom they have not gradually built an Fi bond of mutual positive sentiment, reserving their humorous, quirky, ridiculous sides for their close friends.

Fe PoLR manifests itself in INTps by making them reject "superfluous" emotions. They wouldn't see a point in getting together a collective to weep about/cheer a situation when it is a short-term involvement and doesn't add to the "meaning" of the experience, except for experiencing the situation for its sake.
ILIs are highly orientated to this aspect (meaningfulness). This contrast is best illustrated in interactions with ESEs (who can engage in the situation just for its sake).

Huh. That's a helpful view/opinion. I don't necessarily agree with it, obviously, as it is heavily influenced by quadra values, but I definitely have a better idea of a typical IEI perspective.

Forgot to add this in the last post: I had read somewhere that the Fe PoLR makes INTps crack up with laughter, i.e. they are unable to control their laughter, whereas LIIs manage to not "burst out" laughing like ILIs. Probably I read this on socionics.com...

Is this what u were referring to?

No, not at all, although that is interesting, I suppose.

[717495]

I actually dislike that place, 4chan. I don't like a lot of those things. I also don't see what is so alpha about it. Seems more like an irrational paradise than an alpha paradise.

[AQ]

Yes, but "Fe gone wonky" may be a part of why ILIs are disinclined to broadly share their humor with the world (as an IEI might), and instead act much more reserved around those with whom they have not gradually built an Fi bond of mutual positive sentiment, reserving their humorous, quirky, ridiculous sides for their close friends.


Huh. That's a helpful view/opinion. I don't necessarily agree with it, obviously, as it is heavily influenced by quadra values, but I definitely have a better idea of a typical IEI perspective.



No, not at all, although that is interesting, I suppose.

Yes, it is the quadra values, primarily, that explain the larger behaviour. Viewing the whole thing through the +/- paradigm also can produce similar results.

[ArchonAlarion]

I actually dislike that place, 4chan. I don't like a lot of those things. I also don't see what is so alpha about it. Seems more like an irrational paradise than an alpha paradise.

Merry irrational, but yes.

[Jarno]

Merry irrational

you are talking reininians this week?

[silverchris9]

I think you are on the mark, silverchris. And the fact you mentioned Wallace Stevens, one of my favorite poets, means you win the Internet. Yeah, he is ILI. He wanted to pursue law because he wanted to not be a starving artist which he foresaw if he did not maintain some pragmatic line of work. The Emperor of Icecream is another one of his silly albeit satirical poems. But then stuff like Snowman really characterize a symbolic and detached Ni Te of viewing the world.

Oh, also I forgot to stop and say that YOU win the internet because Wallace Stevens is one of your favorite poets. I love all his work (that I've read), but "Sunday Morning" and "Notes Toward and Supreme Fiction" (which, shamefully, I haven't finished; just "it must be abstract") are some of my favorites. I started "Man with a blue guitar" the other day and it was great too. Oh, and Idea of Order at Key West too. Pretty much all excellent stuff. The guy was legitimately a genius.

[ArchonAlarion]

you are talking reininians this week?

Well irrational is derived directly from Jung, and Merry simply means Fe/Ti valuing...

[Trevor]

Ahem

What a PoLR hit is

A PoLR hit is not caused by someone using your PoLR function around you; it takes more than that. A PoLR hit occurs when someone claims that you are responsible for dealing with issues involving your PoLR. This may happen with a member of a side quadra who mistakes you for your supervisor, or a member of the opposing quadra who just thinks that you're being dumb. However, PoLR hits have little effect on a person who has accepted their weakness. If you can answer to a demand that you use your PoLR with essentially "I am not responsible for that" (or "I can't"), then the crisis is averted, and the issue simply becomes who is responsible for it.

Hidden Agenda Hits

On the other hand, many of the painful things that have been labeled PoLR hits are not in fact PoLR hits. For instance, when an Se ego frightens an Ne ego, the issue here is not Se. Se is not at stake here, and Ne probably isn't either, else the Infantile would be retaliating rather than cowering. What is at stake here is Si. Whereas a Caregiver would respond to the stress on Sensing by smoothing it out and perhaps getting a bit miffed, the Infantile finds that his superid is in trouble. If he's been lucky enough to notice his dual in the past, he may go looking for a Caregiver, or slightly less fortunately, try to make the Aggressor act like a Caregiver (which will certainly not be taken kindly). If he hasn't had the good fortune of noticing who has been taking care of him, or even that he has been taken care of, he may simply become insecure, and wonder why something he has always relied upon is suddenly missing.

All HA hits on static types will follow this pattern of the clumsy static functioning of the other person threatening the delicate balance of the first person's dynamic HA. Unlike a PoLR hit, which is best ignored or discussed detachedly, an HA hit must be cleaned up; and the HA itself is usually not capable of cleaning up after a strong function.

Good thing that this finally has brought in attention. PoLR is more like a shield that protects HA from getting hurt, by keeping it in check. When you get really hurt, it's not the PoLR that gets hurt it's HA.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...t-polr-ha.html

[silverchris9]

I'm not quite sure what the application is for this topic yet. Can you explain?

[Trevor]

I'm not quite sure what the application is for this topic yet. Can you explain?

Something like...when an ILI is sure that his feelings(HA) are not going to be exploited he can then let loose and even make a clown out of himself. It's pretty much already being said here. I'm just relating it to the whole socium.

[silverchris9]

Something like...when an ILI is sure that his feelings(HA) are not going to be exploited he can let loose and even make a clown out of himself. It's pretty much already being said here. I'm just relating it to the whole socium.

Ah, got it. Good point, that helps. I always like it when there's more theory to fit reality. It (almost) always increases understanding both of the theory and of the situation in general. I like socionics. It's a good combination of neat and messy.

[Erk]

I think all the common sense was used up in this one thread.

[Brilliand]

Something like...when an ILI is sure that his feelings(HA) are not going to be exploited he can then let loose and even make a clown out of himself. It's pretty much already being said here. I'm just relating it to the whole socium.

He can, but it isn't clear to me why he would... in an ILI would often be tossed aside carelessly for the sake of . Even if it just so happens that an ILI has nothing to gain (determined by ) by ignoring and nothing to lose (determined by ) by allowing it, what would possess an ILI to spend energy on it? Perhaps hope of an benefit, or a belief that this is part of the established relationship? The former seems unlikely for a weak function... the latter might work, though.

[Beautiful sky]

So it's settled then, Jung is ILI.

LII/INTj

[silverchris9]

I think "acceptance" is an important word here. I might make my thoughts more clear (or at least, explain my thoughts as they now stand). I don't think that an ILIs humor is related to Fe, or that an ILI acting sort of weird and funny is related to Fe. I just think its somewhat natural to have a certain amount of random in you, especially if you're an intuitive type (I know random is generally associated with Ne, but Ni-leading types have a kind of randomness too, although it's more associative, branching from related object to related object, rather than thinking about possibilities, all the stuff that could be or that one could do). So, given that everybody, regardless of type, wants to "be themselves," I find that ILIs need Fi, or at least the feeling of some sort of bond (which to them feels like "acceptance"), in order to feel free to be themselves in this particular way, especially since, as an Fe polr type, they find that frequently, without this bond, they have unpleasant experiences with being emotionally expressive and with emotionally expressive people.

So what I'm saying is that the ILI would "make a clown of himself" because there is a natural amount of clown in all of us, and a natural amount of random in most Ni-types, especially Ni-leading types. Fe polr makes it uncomfortable for ILIs to express this side of themselves in, say, a party full of strangers and a couple of friends. Fi makes these types comfortable and secure enough in their acceptance to express a side of themselves that is there naturally regardless of functions (but possibly, as someone said, connected to Ni)

[Erk]

The difference is that of motivation. The ILI just wants to be themselves, to express something of meaning, but are torn as to the appropriateness of their actions in connection with the people around them. At the end of the day it is just an act for the Fe leading types intended to serve a certain purpose, and this is detectable by other Fe leading types. Its' meaning is externally evident instead of internally contained.

[Nexus]

[InvisibleJim]

Do you have any experience of the ILIs around you being emotionally expressive; or not so much, or barely at all?

Can you elaborate into the particulars of the situation?