Enneagram: differences between type 4 and type 9

[Creepy-male]

I would say that's a bit of an oversimplification...I would say that a better distinction is that 4s actively engage their melancholy, tending to wallow and self-pity, with indulgence acting as a sort of consolation prize, whereas 9s tend to repress/divert melancholy and engage in more passive, instinctive escapism.

Lol thats the point of being direct and practical, I was purposefully avoiding delving into the details.

But what you've written I do agree with, I was just trying to dumb all that down to something thats very blunt and immediate.

[Creepy-male]

Based on what you told me yesterday, I have redecided. You are almost certainly an E9. I still think you are so/sx, and I'd say you have a tiny 1-wing.

I'll suggest some places to look.

Escaping into fantasy worlds
Both E9s and E4s do this when they get unhealthy. Especially true for E4w5 and E9w1. Ask yourself if your fantasy worlds are inhabited by darkness and depression (E4) or by an idealized reality (E9).

Depression
When you have felt down, do you go more numb (E9) or more self-punishing and suicidal (E4)? E9s are seldom suicidal, E4 normally consider suicide ... often.

Emotions
E9s are typically calm on the outside, and optimistic on the inside. They might try to look inside, but when they do, it is harder for them to see the darker sides of themselves than for the E4 (who wallows in it) - E9s prefer to look for harmony, balance and wholeness also inside. E4s are almost the opposite, as they tend to overfocus on what is defect inside.

The more stressed the two types are, the more different they will look. Stressed E4s become more and more unstable/emotionally turbulent, stressed E9s become more and more disengaged/emotionally inert.

E9s typically repress anger
E4s typically express

Unhealthy E9s let people walk all over them. Unhealthy E4s use other people, and feel entitled to do so.

Withdrawal
Both withdraw, but for somewhat different reasons. A bit simplified - E9s typically fear that external world will demand more from them, and want to be invisible to avoid it. E4s typically fall into fantasies because they don't manage to be as awesome as in their fantasies....

Fears
Do you recognize any of these fears :
- that you are ruining your life by wasting your opportunities (E4>E9)
- that reality will force you to deal with your problems (E9>E4)
- that you will end up alone, cut off from the world (E9>E4)
- that you will end up finding yourself a hollow shell without meaning or feelings (E4>E9)

Let me know what you think.

I agree with all of this, its well written, and pretty comprehensive.

The only thing I would add for the sake of elaboration is that e4's are not simply melancholy for the heck of it, they are likely to be more accepting of all their emotions including darker ones than other types (especially the positive outlook group) that just prefer to steer clear of them unless they are cornered.

The idea for e4's is that when healthy they operate by transforming their negative emotions into something positive and when unhealthy they absorb themselves in them feeling vicitimized. Other types like I said prefer to steer clear of them unless they are cornered, for example a 5 seeks to dull themselves emotionally because they feel it gives them more willpower.

On a large scale e4's fall by feeling victimized and hurt, they re-energize with fantasy, and they transform their negative side by doing something productive (likely creative in nature), then proceed foward until the cycle repeats.

[Wittmont]

Wittmont has a lot of both 4 and 9. He's calm, kind and polite, and I've never seen him moody. He's peaceful and sociable. However, I doubt very much he represses feelings. I think his confusion stems from him having an so/sx-instinct. With so first, a really strong 5-wing and sp last he naturally is a calmer kind of 4, and instead of "fighting" his ideas through, he is diplomatic and peaceloving.

Wittmont, did you check up on instincts?



He definitely has E9 as his gut type and 5 as head type.

Aye, my scores always have very strong 4 and 9, and then 5, relative to the other types. 1 and 8 tend to be especially low for some reason, is that strange if I am a nine?

If I am a four I am definitely a 4 so/sx based on these descriptions, which I found very revealing. When it comes to four it is exactly the volitility and attachement to melancholy that I find I hard to relate to. I mean I am a romantic in many ways and I am focused probably too much on my feelings and emotions, but I do not go so readily into the negative aspects of them, nor do I EVER throw direct temper tantrums or blow up really - if I blow up it is for like 20 seconds and then people tend to laugh at me grrrr lol

I think I am a mix between 4 and 9.

My comments are bolded below.

Wikipedia

Fours

Characteristic role: The Individualist[16]
Ego fixation: Melancholy[17] <---A bit yes but not so much so that I identify with it
Holy idea: Origin[18]
Basic Fear: Being commonplace[25] <--- NOT a fear
Basic Desire: To be unique and authentic[25]
Temptation: To beat themselves up and withdraw <--- Happens once in a while
Vice/Passion: Envy[21]
Virtue: Equanimity[22] <--- This I identify the most with
Stress/Disintegration point: Two (Disintegrating Fours become dissatisfied like unhealthy Twos) I have read the description of stressed fours on enneagram institut and don't really relate to them, I am starting to see that my inner mechanisms are not really fourish but have different triggers. Still I do recognize a bit of them in myself, but knowing other fours I see them much stronger in them.
Security/Integration point: One (Self-actualized Fours are idealistic and progressive like healthy Ones) This one also always made me wonder what it was about, I don't see much of 1 in me.

Nines

Characteristic role: The Peacemaker[16]<--- Yeah I have a bit of that Peacemaker thing going
Ego fixation: Indolence, self-forgetting[17]<--- Indolence yes, but I never forget my self I am a bit selfcentered tbh
Holy idea: Love[18] I like this one.
Basic Fear: Loss and separation; of annihilation[30] <---- ? dont recognize this fear at all...
Basic Desire: To maintain inner stability and peace of mind[30] <--- VERY MUCH me.
Temptation: To go along to get along[30]
Vice/Passion: Indifference[21]<--- I see it as a defense mechanism that I withdraw into myself and then seem to be indifferent. Is this what I confuse with Equniamity?
Virtue: Right action[22]
Stress/Disintegration point: Six (Nines get more anxious, suspicious, and negative like unhealthy Sixes and may exhibit more aggressiveness)
Security/Integration point: Three (Nines begin to work at developing themselves and their potential and move into greater action in the world, like healthier Threes) Hmm, if I feel I am held back from developing my talents I do get frustrated. I definitely see much more of this in me than 1.

What I like the most about the 9 descriptions is the inner harmony and balance. When I want to be by myself this is very much what I strive for even if I can 'wallow' in E4 like emotionality at times certainly. But this darkness aspect described in E4s I relate to very little. I somehow always have a positive outlook. I have never ever considered suicide for example. When I get depressed I go more towards the 'numbness' described in 9 descriptions rather than suicidal despair.

I am not volatile in conflicts, but neither do I shy out of them. I can weather a lot of shit, but I rarely hit out, it will take a lot of pushing of me for that to happen. I strive to keep my temper in check and use reason when I argue, I feel if I lose my head I will only give shit and start to hurt instead of making progress with what needs to be sorted out.

Another thing I find is 9 over 4 is that I tend very much to be in a 'flow', I go where the flow takes me rather than assert myself somehow... and that is probably a VERY 9ish tendency.

Based on what you told me yesterday, I have redecided. You are almost certainly an E9. I still think you are so/sx, and I'd say you have a tiny 1-wing.

I'll suggest some places to look.

Escaping into fantasy worlds
Both E9s and E4s do this when they get unhealthy. Especially true for E4w5 and E9w1. Ask yourself if your fantasy worlds are inhabited by darkness and depression (E4) or by an idealized reality (E9).

Idealized reality for me, I am much more towards Tolkien'style in some aspects than a host of other authors that are more towards horror - never cared for horror or really angsty, depressive neurotic stuff either in literature or art

Depression
When you have felt down, do you go more numb (E9) or more self-punishing and suicidal (E4)? E9s are seldom suicidal, E4 normally consider suicide ... often.

I have never ever considered suicide, the very thought is extremely alien to me for myself. I could see myself reach such a point possible, but it would be a long and hard road indeed to take me to that point.

Emotions
E9s are typically calm on the outside, and optimistic on the inside. They might try to look inside, but when they do, it is harder for them to see the darker sides of themselves than for the E4 (who wallows in it) - E9s prefer to look for harmony, balance and wholeness also inside. E4s are almost the opposite, as they tend to overfocus on what is defect inside.

The more stressed the two types are, the more different they will look. Stressed E4s become more and more unstable/emotionally turbulent, stressed E9s become more and more disengaged/emotionally inert.

E9s typically repress anger
E4s typically express

Unhealthy E9s let people walk all over them. Unhealthy E4s use other people, and feel entitled to do so.

I am calm on the outside and optimistic on the inside. I identify strongly with attempting to find inner balance and harmony, but I am not afraid to look inside to find it. I guess I am more disengaged and emotionally inert than the volatile fours at least

Withdrawal
Both withdraw, but for somewhat different reasons. A bit simplified - E9s typically fear that external world will demand more from them, and want to be invisible to avoid it. E4s typically fall into fantasies because they don't manage to be as awesome as in their fantasies....

Hmm, I have an invisiblity need rather than any illusion about my awesomeness heh

Fears
Do you recognize any of these fears :
- that you are ruining your life by wasting your opportunities (E4>E9)
- that reality will force you to deal with your problems(E9>E4)
- that you will end up alone, cut off from the world (E9>E4)
- that you will end up finding yourself a hollow shell without meaning or feelings (E4>E9)

Let me know what you think.

hm not so much the first fear for me, more the second (annoying reality), not so much the third, and very much not the fourth.

Hmm I think the tests have my preferrences pretty accurately it seems. When I read relationship descriptions between 4s and 9s it is VERY clear I fit the 9 side better than the 4 side. I tend to keep cool and to acknowledge the issues but I am slower in the temper swings than the 4s I know. I can withdraw for a bit if I get hurt, but I will come back to deal with what I have processed to heal the wounds, you could say to restore a balance, and move on with a deeper understanding with both.

So, does all this make me a 9?

[strrrng]

I see it as a defense mechanism that I withdraw into myself and then seem to be indifferent. Is this what I confuse with Equniamity?

I think it easily could be. tbh I'm not sure where this idea of 4s virtue being "equanimity" comes from. Maybe the authors suppose that through sifting through their inner volatile worlds, 4s can eventually come to a more balanced state, with regard to both themselves and humanity. But 9 is the type most strongly bent on maintaining a holistic sense of connection with others and their inner worlds; the removal into indolent fantasizing is a last-resort means of preserving said thing. 4s withdraw to amplify their internally-cultivated feelings and self-image; it can sometimes be spawned by others, if they feel rejected and such, but is hardly ever driven by a desire to connect with people (at most, it's about having one person 'get' them).

I somehow always have a positive outlook. I have never ever considered suicide for example. When I get depressed I go more towards the 'numbness' described in 9 descriptions rather than suicidal despair.

hm, not to sound stereotypical, but the fact that you've never even considered it -- I wouldn't say it doesn't exactly point to 4 (especially 4w5 sx/sp???). 4s are just naturally attuned to their own despair, and even if not suicidal, will usually end up wallowing in some form of self-loathing desolation. Most 4s in this community feel a bit darker to me, melancholy usually escapes out of certain things they say.

I am not volatile in conflicts, but neither do I shy out of them. I can weather a lot of shit, but I rarely hit out, it will take a lot of pushing of me for that to happen. I strive to keep my temper in check and use reason when I argue, I feel if I lose my head I will only give shit and start to hurt instead of making progress with what needs to be sorted out.

Doesn't necessarily point to 9, but seems out of place for 4. Yes, they "weather a lot of shit," but it's mostly self-induced and partially resultant of the dramatized ideas they have about the world. 9s are types of attrition; they weather things out in an almost lukewarm manner, convinced that it will eventually work out, and that -- in unhealthier cases -- what's happening isn't "real."

[redbaron]

Yes, they "weather a lot of shit," but it's mostly self-induced and partially resultant of the dramatized ideas they have about the world. 9s are types of attrition; they weather things out in an almost lukewarm manner, convinced that it will eventually work out, and that -- in unhealthier cases -- what's happening isn't "real."

that's a really good description of my SEI E-9 friend when it comes to dealing with conflict. First, deny. Then ignore. Act like "everything will be fine". Only when pushed further do they stand up to problems in their own silent way, rarely acknowledging the issue verbally to others.

(ANNOYING)

[Wittmont]

that's a really good description of my SEI E-9 friend when it comes to dealing with conflict. First, deny. Then ignore. Act like "everything will be fine". Only when pushed further do they stand up to problems in their own silent way, rarely acknowledging the issue verbally to others.

(ANNOYING)

That is totally my SEI boss at at my previous workplace, she denied very real issues and conflicts for ages, then had a really aggressive shadow reaction against one employee (more or less breaking her mentally in the process). But she never acknowledged the issues people had under her and let these issues simmer for a couple of years. All this stressed people to distraction, no matter what they did she just deflected any attempts at dealing with things and sorting them out.

Needless to say this approach was extremely stressful (and annoying) to everyone (including her, she almost quit her job at one point). It is definitely not my approach to dealing with conflicts to so extremely sweep any hint of problems under the rug.

[Gilly]

+1 to Wittmont as 9.

[redbaron]

+1 to Wittmont as 9.

Gilly, that's not nice!

[Mediator Kam]

I still feel I am half 4 half 9. SOMEONE SAVE ME.

[Creepy-male]

I still feel I am half 4 half 9. SOMEONE SAVE ME.

I see your bastard 9/4 cross-breed and raise you my bastard 9/6 crossbreed.

That post you made on Facebook about "If you stop loving you never loved to begin with" or whatever seems very E4. It's just invalidating anything outside some romantic ideal you hold for what "love" is.