Enneagram: differences between type 4 and type 9

[Wittmont]

I have always seen myself as an E4, based on tests and descriptions and my view of myself, but lately in tests I have consistently scored E9 rather than E4 (in at least two different pretty thorough tests). So what gives, how do I know what type I am?

[Wittmont]

In my opinion you are an E4w5, but E9 would be my second guess. Have you read descriptions?

Btw, I don't think you are an sx/sp. I think you are so/sx.

Yes, I have up until now not found the 9 descriptions to resonate very much with me. There are however a few points there that are very accurate... that and the resent test scores have made me curious if I have my E type correct.

[Creepy-male]

I have always seen myself as an E4, based on tests and descriptions and my view of myself, but lately in tests I have consistently scored E9 rather than E4 (in at least two different pretty thorough tests). So what gives, how do I know what type I am?

One simple way to draw the line is the following

Both are part of the "withdrawn" traid, so don't type based on being withdrawn or introverted, as you can't distinguish them by this alone.

The E4 is part of the intensity triad and surrounds issues of trust, while the E9 is part of the positive outlook triad and surrounds issues of being positive. This is a reliable way of dividing the two, look up harmonic groups for more infomration on these two triads.

The E4 is a feeling/heart triad member and surround issues of reconciling their shame of not being unique or special or having a purposeful identity. The E9 is a instinctual/gut triad member and surrounds issues of repressing their anger/rage in order to perserve an idealistic/positive outlook. This is also a reliable way of dividing the two.

The similarity to the two types is not only the withdrawn characteristic but their idealistic outlook and tendancy to fanatize a lot about things.

The difference is e4's are more melancholy, suseptible to feelings of self-pity and doubt as if they are missing something important in their lifes, this charges their romantic outlook and need for self-expression. e4's over identify with their internal emotions, and fantasy helps them intensify these emotions, perserve their moods, and evaluate what they value in life to search for that missing element.

On the other hand e9's are POSITIVE outlook types, they are not melancholy, but disengaged. They are suseptible to feelings of detachment and tend to be detached from reality and move through life by motive of "inertia" which carries them from place to place. e9's do this because they don't want to be overwhelmed by their instinctual feelings of anger/rage... they want to be at peace and be calm and feel like everything is alright. They detach from reality both emotionally and physically to prevent their anger from consuming them. This is the key difference, e4's want to perserve those feelings, understand them, transform them... e9's want to repress them, avoid them, let them diffuse out of themselves. E9's fanatsize as a way to envision the positive and ideal, to help confirm their instinctual hunch that peace and tranquility can exist.

Finally its possible to have both these types in your tritype and in that case if you identify with both of these, you have to evaluate which one of these motives is center stage in your identity.

[Creepy-male]

This is good, but imo it takes a lot of time to realize what it means, as people in general can't see how they differ from others, and such things just sound like words until you know more about the different types. Also health levels influence a lot, and people have bad memories. Do you have any idea how to make people recognize themselves in descriptions?

Well... I agree. To be very direct, e4's are more melancholy, e9's are more positive.

but that is a simplication that can be confusing.

[Gilly]

Gul, don't go typing all the SEIs 9w1 just because you're one.

Kam is BLATANTLY 4w3. Bee is less obvious, but I would lean 4w3 so/sx or sx/so.

[Gilly]

Well... I agree. To be very direct, e4's are more melancholy, e9's are more positive.

I would say that's a bit of an oversimplification...I would say that a better distinction is that 4s actively engage their melancholy, tending to wallow and self-pity, with indulgence acting as a sort of consolation prize, whereas 9s tend to repress/divert melancholy and engage in more passive, instinctive escapism.

[Gilly]

Shuttup.

[Sammy]

nines are emotionally inert while fours are emotionally volatile

[Creepy-male]

I would say that's a bit of an oversimplification...I would say that a better distinction is that 4s actively engage their melancholy, tending to wallow and self-pity, with indulgence acting as a sort of consolation prize, whereas 9s tend to repress/divert melancholy and engage in more passive, instinctive escapism.

Lol thats the point of being direct and practical, I was purposefully avoiding delving into the details.

But what you've written I do agree with, I was just trying to dumb all that down to something thats very blunt and immediate.

[Creepy-male]

Based on what you told me yesterday, I have redecided. You are almost certainly an E9. I still think you are so/sx, and I'd say you have a tiny 1-wing.

I'll suggest some places to look.

Escaping into fantasy worlds
Both E9s and E4s do this when they get unhealthy. Especially true for E4w5 and E9w1. Ask yourself if your fantasy worlds are inhabited by darkness and depression (E4) or by an idealized reality (E9).

Depression
When you have felt down, do you go more numb (E9) or more self-punishing and suicidal (E4)? E9s are seldom suicidal, E4 normally consider suicide ... often.

Emotions
E9s are typically calm on the outside, and optimistic on the inside. They might try to look inside, but when they do, it is harder for them to see the darker sides of themselves than for the E4 (who wallows in it) - E9s prefer to look for harmony, balance and wholeness also inside. E4s are almost the opposite, as they tend to overfocus on what is defect inside.

The more stressed the two types are, the more different they will look. Stressed E4s become more and more unstable/emotionally turbulent, stressed E9s become more and more disengaged/emotionally inert.

E9s typically repress anger
E4s typically express

Unhealthy E9s let people walk all over them. Unhealthy E4s use other people, and feel entitled to do so.

Withdrawal
Both withdraw, but for somewhat different reasons. A bit simplified - E9s typically fear that external world will demand more from them, and want to be invisible to avoid it. E4s typically fall into fantasies because they don't manage to be as awesome as in their fantasies....

Fears
Do you recognize any of these fears :
- that you are ruining your life by wasting your opportunities (E4>E9)
- that reality will force you to deal with your problems (E9>E4)
- that you will end up alone, cut off from the world (E9>E4)
- that you will end up finding yourself a hollow shell without meaning or feelings (E4>E9)

Let me know what you think.

I agree with all of this, its well written, and pretty comprehensive.

The only thing I would add for the sake of elaboration is that e4's are not simply melancholy for the heck of it, they are likely to be more accepting of all their emotions including darker ones than other types (especially the positive outlook group) that just prefer to steer clear of them unless they are cornered.

The idea for e4's is that when healthy they operate by transforming their negative emotions into something positive and when unhealthy they absorb themselves in them feeling vicitimized. Other types like I said prefer to steer clear of them unless they are cornered, for example a 5 seeks to dull themselves emotionally because they feel it gives them more willpower.

On a large scale e4's fall by feeling victimized and hurt, they re-energize with fantasy, and they transform their negative side by doing something productive (likely creative in nature), then proceed foward until the cycle repeats.

[Wittmont]

Wittmont has a lot of both 4 and 9. He's calm, kind and polite, and I've never seen him moody. He's peaceful and sociable. However, I doubt very much he represses feelings. I think his confusion stems from him having an so/sx-instinct. With so first, a really strong 5-wing and sp last he naturally is a calmer kind of 4, and instead of "fighting" his ideas through, he is diplomatic and peaceloving.

Wittmont, did you check up on instincts?



He definitely has E9 as his gut type and 5 as head type.

Aye, my scores always have very strong 4 and 9, and then 5, relative to the other types. 1 and 8 tend to be especially low for some reason, is that strange if I am a nine?

If I am a four I am definitely a 4 so/sx based on these descriptions, which I found very revealing. When it comes to four it is exactly the volitility and attachement to melancholy that I find I hard to relate to. I mean I am a romantic in many ways and I am focused probably too much on my feelings and emotions, but I do not go so readily into the negative aspects of them, nor do I EVER throw direct temper tantrums or blow up really - if I blow up it is for like 20 seconds and then people tend to laugh at me grrrr lol

I think I am a mix between 4 and 9.

My comments are bolded below.

Wikipedia

Fours

Characteristic role: The Individualist[16]
Ego fixation: Melancholy[17] <---A bit yes but not so much so that I identify with it
Holy idea: Origin[18]
Basic Fear: Being commonplace[25] <--- NOT a fear
Basic Desire: To be unique and authentic[25]
Temptation: To beat themselves up and withdraw <--- Happens once in a while
Vice/Passion: Envy[21]
Virtue: Equanimity[22] <--- This I identify the most with
Stress/Disintegration point: Two (Disintegrating Fours become dissatisfied like unhealthy Twos) I have read the description of stressed fours on enneagram institut and don't really relate to them, I am starting to see that my inner mechanisms are not really fourish but have different triggers. Still I do recognize a bit of them in myself, but knowing other fours I see them much stronger in them.
Security/Integration point: One (Self-actualized Fours are idealistic and progressive like healthy Ones) This one also always made me wonder what it was about, I don't see much of 1 in me.

Nines

Characteristic role: The Peacemaker[16]<--- Yeah I have a bit of that Peacemaker thing going
Ego fixation: Indolence, self-forgetting[17]<--- Indolence yes, but I never forget my self I am a bit selfcentered tbh
Holy idea: Love[18] I like this one.
Basic Fear: Loss and separation; of annihilation[30] <---- ? dont recognize this fear at all...
Basic Desire: To maintain inner stability and peace of mind[30] <--- VERY MUCH me.
Temptation: To go along to get along[30]
Vice/Passion: Indifference[21]<--- I see it as a defense mechanism that I withdraw into myself and then seem to be indifferent. Is this what I confuse with Equniamity?
Virtue: Right action[22]
Stress/Disintegration point: Six (Nines get more anxious, suspicious, and negative like unhealthy Sixes and may exhibit more aggressiveness)
Security/Integration point: Three (Nines begin to work at developing themselves and their potential and move into greater action in the world, like healthier Threes) Hmm, if I feel I am held back from developing my talents I do get frustrated. I definitely see much more of this in me than 1.

What I like the most about the 9 descriptions is the inner harmony and balance. When I want to be by myself this is very much what I strive for even if I can 'wallow' in E4 like emotionality at times certainly. But this darkness aspect described in E4s I relate to very little. I somehow always have a positive outlook. I have never ever considered suicide for example. When I get depressed I go more towards the 'numbness' described in 9 descriptions rather than suicidal despair.

I am not volatile in conflicts, but neither do I shy out of them. I can weather a lot of shit, but I rarely hit out, it will take a lot of pushing of me for that to happen. I strive to keep my temper in check and use reason when I argue, I feel if I lose my head I will only give shit and start to hurt instead of making progress with what needs to be sorted out.

Another thing I find is 9 over 4 is that I tend very much to be in a 'flow', I go where the flow takes me rather than assert myself somehow... and that is probably a VERY 9ish tendency.

Based on what you told me yesterday, I have redecided. You are almost certainly an E9. I still think you are so/sx, and I'd say you have a tiny 1-wing.

I'll suggest some places to look.

Escaping into fantasy worlds
Both E9s and E4s do this when they get unhealthy. Especially true for E4w5 and E9w1. Ask yourself if your fantasy worlds are inhabited by darkness and depression (E4) or by an idealized reality (E9).

Idealized reality for me, I am much more towards Tolkien'style in some aspects than a host of other authors that are more towards horror - never cared for horror or really angsty, depressive neurotic stuff either in literature or art

Depression
When you have felt down, do you go more numb (E9) or more self-punishing and suicidal (E4)? E9s are seldom suicidal, E4 normally consider suicide ... often.

I have never ever considered suicide, the very thought is extremely alien to me for myself. I could see myself reach such a point possible, but it would be a long and hard road indeed to take me to that point.

Emotions
E9s are typically calm on the outside, and optimistic on the inside. They might try to look inside, but when they do, it is harder for them to see the darker sides of themselves than for the E4 (who wallows in it) - E9s prefer to look for harmony, balance and wholeness also inside. E4s are almost the opposite, as they tend to overfocus on what is defect inside.

The more stressed the two types are, the more different they will look. Stressed E4s become more and more unstable/emotionally turbulent, stressed E9s become more and more disengaged/emotionally inert.

E9s typically repress anger
E4s typically express

Unhealthy E9s let people walk all over them. Unhealthy E4s use other people, and feel entitled to do so.

I am calm on the outside and optimistic on the inside. I identify strongly with attempting to find inner balance and harmony, but I am not afraid to look inside to find it. I guess I am more disengaged and emotionally inert than the volatile fours at least

Withdrawal
Both withdraw, but for somewhat different reasons. A bit simplified - E9s typically fear that external world will demand more from them, and want to be invisible to avoid it. E4s typically fall into fantasies because they don't manage to be as awesome as in their fantasies....

Hmm, I have an invisiblity need rather than any illusion about my awesomeness heh

Fears
Do you recognize any of these fears :
- that you are ruining your life by wasting your opportunities (E4>E9)
- that reality will force you to deal with your problems(E9>E4)
- that you will end up alone, cut off from the world (E9>E4)
- that you will end up finding yourself a hollow shell without meaning or feelings (E4>E9)

Let me know what you think.

hm not so much the first fear for me, more the second (annoying reality), not so much the third, and very much not the fourth.

Hmm I think the tests have my preferrences pretty accurately it seems. When I read relationship descriptions between 4s and 9s it is VERY clear I fit the 9 side better than the 4 side. I tend to keep cool and to acknowledge the issues but I am slower in the temper swings than the 4s I know. I can withdraw for a bit if I get hurt, but I will come back to deal with what I have processed to heal the wounds, you could say to restore a balance, and move on with a deeper understanding with both.

So, does all this make me a 9?

[Gilly]

+1 to Wittmont as 9.

[Olimpia]

Type 4 (486) on the Left,
Type 9 (936) on the Right.



P.S: In my view, the "Enneagram Dual" of the 486 tritype is 9 (as well as 2 and 7).
Interesting to see this kind of duality play out in this video. The main character is a split personality at first, and one could say that at the end he is "dualized" completely, to the point he's got both halves in himself. In Socionics, no one can be their own Dual, but it is still an intriguing concept, one many people aspire towards.

[Hope]

Idk why ppl confuse 4s and 9s so much. We arent alike at all more than on most superficial demeanor. Our motivations and approaches to situations are completely different.
9s value peace the most and peace have no real value to 4, they can even be peace destroyers.
9s are only mad when their peace is affected.

[Pallas]

Idk why ppl confuse 4s and 9s so much. We arent alike at all more than on most superficial demeanor. Our motivations and approaches to situations are completely different.
9s value peace the most and peace have no real value to 4, they can even be peace destroyers.
9s are only mad when their peace is affected.

Yeah. I think there are just a ton of 4s with an 9 fix and vice versa on the Internet so everyone just ends up confused. Most enneagram information in the Internet is obfuscation in general.

[Hope]

Yeah. I think there are just a ton of 4s with an 9 fix and vice versa on the Internet so everyone just ends up confused. Most enneagram information in the Internet is obfuscation in general.

Yeah, that must be. Also appearance, I know personally 4s… and some could "appear" more "peaceful" and "nice" than me (9w8) at first sight, I just look serious/distant/cold/ angry/ bored/uninterested, and I'm much more "honest" in my interactions and expressions and uninterested in having rewards from others, so maybe is that too.

I've found good stuff, but still Idk why ppl confuse types when we aren't alike…I mean, enneagram institute for example, it makes clear distinctions between needs, motivations, fears and else.

But its true that most descriptions of 9 wings fail miserably when describing 9w8 or even making distinction between 9w1 or 9w8 its clear that some authors can't find or comprehend what 9s are in reality. 9w8 search fiercely/violently peace while 9w1 search peace through being good or self righteousness perfectionism and stuff like that.

[Pallas]

Yeah, that must be. Also appearance, I know personally 4s… and some could "appear" more "peaceful" and "nice" than me (9w8) at first sight, I just look serious/distant/cold/ angry/ bored/uninterested, and I'm much more "honest" in my interactions and expressions and uninterested in having rewards from others, so maybe is that too.

I've found good stuff, but still Idk why ppl confuse types when we aren't alike…I mean, enneagram institute for example, it make clear distinctions between needs, motivations, fears and else.But its true that most descriptions of 9 wings fail miserably when describing 9w8 or even making distinction between 9w1 or 9w8 its clear that some authors can't find or comprehend what 9s are in reality. 9w8 search fiercely/violently peace while 9w1 search peace through being good or self righteousness.

As I said,

Most enneagram information in the Internet is obfuscation in general.

That seems to be all of it to me, although there are further reasons for that if you really want to get into it. Those reasons are basically 1. enneagram cults and 2. escapism. The actual process of typing is also basically generally typing birds based on whether or not they're blue, which is why I made the Archetype Stackings thread and then the other ideas in it (although I think the main post in that thread is generally inaccurate, you have to start somewhere).

[Singu]

4s are elitist about whatever it is that they're invested in.

[maniac]

4 revolve around their image and is more openly "me and my feelings/opinions"

9 holds back their thoughts and feelings in effort to possibly connect with everyone, because they fear disconnection. if they put an opinion out there, someone might get turned off and not want to associate with them, and this is a fear of a 9. them constantly having to push down themselves build up anger inside, and they think they are not seen, and get more angry at others because, if theyre holding back, why arent others doing the same? -- a 9 actually said this

in very general terms:
9 being an attachment type: drawn to what others like, to connect and merge with others

4 is drawn to what other dont like, to seperate themselves from others - be unique

[Pallas]

4 revolve around their image and is more openly "me and my feelings/opinions"

9 holds back their thoughts and feelings in effort to possibly connect with everyone, because they fear disconnection. if they put an opinion out there, someone might get turned off and not want to associate with them, and this is a fear of a 9. them constantly having to push down themselves build up anger inside, and they think they are not seen, and get more angry at others because, if theyre holding back, why arent others doing the same? -- a 9 actually said this

Basically, 4s try to disconnect themselves from everyone, and 9s try to disconnect themselves from no one. In other words, 4 and 9 are basically opposites.

[maniac]

Basically, 4s try to disconnect themselves from everyone, and 9s try to disconnect themselves from no one. In other words, 4 and 9 are basically opposites.

Then there is the 5 wing and the 3 wing which look different. 3 wing naturally fits in more, being an attachment type, 4w5 are more rejective(?). 5 wing thinks (on top of "me and my feelings") more about outer power trying to control them (society and such) vs 3 wing which emphasizes the *ME ME ME*. People underestimate the impact of wings I think.
Many 4w3 mistypes as 4w5... And 9s mistypes as 4
Then there are subwings IMO that people here seem to have predisposed feelings towards but i see them in people clearly

[Chae]

4 wants to express themselves in relation to others. Their authentic feeling > belonging. Self > Others.
9 wants everyone to express themselves in relation to each other. Belonging > Their authentic feeling. Others > self.

4's standpoint is insular, 9's standpoint is universal. The wings only amplify that. 4 becomes either more observant at 5 or more self-aggrandizing/self-referencing at 3, while 9 becomes more protective at 8 and collectively moral at 1.

So one point of distinguishment is how they deliberately create discord: 9 - not at all! This goes against everything they want. 9 always ajusts and keeps their (disruptive) opinion to themselves if possible. 4 - oh yes, when their emotionality and drive to stand out demands it. They will state their opinion for that very purpose.

[maniac]

not all examples in this are good but anyway