VI me for the hell of it

[FDG]

I think you should try to "extremize" your answers. No middle ground. We will never understand anything from the middle ground, except irrationality over rationality, possibly

[force my hand]

FDG, Winterpark, Olga and anyone else for that matter:

Do you ever find yourself hoping others ask you questions that you yourself would not ask of others because of its seemingly irrational context?

For example, talking to someone about their job and they say, "I'm a dittit dada coordinater/lead hand/safety inspector" and you keep waiting for them add, "so what do you think about THAT?" in the hopes you can have a more heart-to-heart, less superficial conversation about their work. I realize this is an awkward example, but basically it boils down to me loving to answer 'real' questions, but often ones, like I said, I probably wouldn't ask of others myself.

[Olga]

@Cheerio

I liked your comment, it is related to my arguemnt with Sergei Ganin about how the best to test the type and I adressed it in my article: Functions at war/dreams, there is a link there to Sergei's article.

But I think it woudl be more wise to find the middle ground on this issue:

1. You can eather go from defining your strongest function or from the defining your weakest one, both ways problably are good and work for different people differently.

@Winterpark
1. You sound to me as if you are defintely irrational and defintely ethical and definatley sensorical would advise you to look at ISFP profile and just say the points you disagree or if you find another type profile which you think mya suit you than let me know and we shall look at both.

@FDG the fact that ENTJ has got as a third function and ISFP as the second my be similar to the way we feel. I have as a base function but according to my thoery i can not bad at as ell but do not like to be all the time at so we all have this function but to a limited degree!

[implied]

[force my hand]

How about this recent mix (taken before this thread):



Olga: I can't rule out ISFp, and I appreciate your efforts, but if I am in fact an ISFp, I'm a severely corrupted one! But this is a process of self-discovery, so I'm interested in all views.

[Joy]

[Joy]

seriously... he HAS to be ENTj... I've never been so sure of a VI...

[Cone]

I think I will keep constantly reiterating the fact that I agree with Joy.

[implied]

[XoX]

Hmm..care to explain why ENTj? I mean I'm not against it but how come you all seem so sure of it? I agree that ENTj is way more likely than ESTj.

[Joy]

pure VI... my conflicting partner is very easy for me to type

[XoX]

pure VI... my conflicting partner is very easy for me to type

lol Joy! He is not that bad

[Joy]

who said anything about good or bad??? We are all someone's conflicting partner... that doesn't make anyone good or bad or whatever. Crimany!

[XoX]

who said anything about good or bad??? We are all someone's conflicting partner... that doesn't make anyone good or bad or whatever. Crimany!

Hehe, cool down I just found it funny visualizing how you open the thread and go "ZOMG, this is conflicting!! That must be ENTj!!" I have to try this method myself Please don't kill me with the mighty Fe sword for interfering

[Joy]

It's okay... the gammas say he's gamma too, and I tell other people when I think they're a certain type, and most aren't ENTjs.

[Gilly]

seriously... he HAS to be ENTj... I've never been so sure of a VI...

He looks very facially similar to an E_Tj that I know. I suspect ESTj.

[Joy]

ENTjs and ESTjs look different in the eyes. It's hard to explain. They also look different in the mouth area.

[Arcanum]

I have yet to read anything here that goes against a sensory ESTj. The logical and sensory ESTjs share the same outlook on things, but their attitudes are very different.

How he usually prepares to his exams: does he start to prepare himself in advance or prefer to do everything in the last minute? Is his rythm steady or dynamic and changing?


Last minute for sure. For example, I have a math final coming up in two weeks - I'll start studying the day before.

Is this stressful for you, or you enjoy doing things in the last minute?

I prefer having by-the-book directions because it saves time and wasted effort, but I can find anything if need be. I've never been 'lost' driving around an unfamiliar part of town.

Fits an ESTj sensory type well.

Do you like when people give you instructions how to do things or teach you how to do things?


It depends on what it is. If it's something abstract like math, then yes. Anything more flexible and free-flowing, though, I'd rather be given a list of things to avoid as opposed to a set of instructions because I can usually figure it out myself, and enjoy the experience.

I think this is related.

If I assume than you can influence people with your emotions, for example, you are good at telling stories in a funny way and pulling faces and everybody laughs, would it be right?


If I'm in a high energy mood yes, if subdued, I don't even try. Sometimes if I've met someone new when I was in 'fine form' and then see them again when I'm not, I can tell they're just waiting for me to do something 'interesting' and then when I don't, they're disappointed, and I almost feel rejected by not acting as they think I should.

From this I ask you: do you prefer to tell negative jokes? Like "that color is so ugly," "that guy is an idiot" (with your personal reason). Given a comfortable environment though.

How often do you get into conflicts - I assume you are good at avoiding them, would it be right?


Good at avoiding, in general. Heated conflicts are very rare for me, but when they do happen they tend to be spectacular, and born out of frustration for a situation and not a specifc something someone has said or done.

By spectacular, do you mean a little aggresive and high-toned?

Do you usually feel how people relate to you, for example, do you know if they like you or not?


No, I can't say this definitively. Often I will fish for feedback with a self-depricating insult (ie. "Wow, you must think I'm an idiot"). Sometimes people I've thought I'd gone 'too far' with will actually seek me out because they've missed seeing me around (which surprises me greatly).

I don't recall ever hearing this from the ISTps I know. They would first say that there is something wrong with you (jokingly or not), though I might be overgeneralizing.

Do you ever find yourself hoping others ask you questions that you yourself would not ask of others because of its seemingly irrational context?

For example, talking to someone about their job and they say, "I'm a dittit dada coordinater/lead hand/safety inspector" and you keep waiting for them add, "so what do you think about THAT?" in the hopes you can have a more heart-to-heart, less superficial conversation about their work. I realize this is an awkward example, but basically it boils down to me loving to answer 'real' questions, but often ones, like I said, I probably wouldn't ask of others myself.

you don't ask because you feel that it is their own business? Maybe you want to have discussions where your career title isn't the center of the conversation. Is that a reason too?


Are you good at scheduling? I have yet to hear of an ENTj who cannot organize his time, which I doubt you are. Maybe I am wrong.

ENTjs and ESTjs look different in the eyes. It's hard to explain. They also look different in the mouth area.

This guy is incredibly similar to an ESTj I know. Just in case, I ask questions :wink: .

[Kim]

He absolutely looks ENTj. I KNOW ENTJs WHEN I SEE THEM! <3 :wink:

[implied]

[Park]

@Winterpark
1. You sound to me as if you are defintely irrational and defintely ethical and definatley sensorical would advise you to look at ISFP profile and just say the points you disagree or if you find another type profile which you think mya suit you than let me know and we shall look at both.

ISFp has always been an option but the profiles that describe me the best are usually ISTp profiles (followed by INTp).

Function-wise I have always doubted about and as to which one I preffer. For example, the ISTp profile at socion.info is the one that suits me the best, but I don't think I can relate to the function analysis that much. The INTj's function analysis (and even the ISFp's for that matter) I can relate to much better. Why do you say definitely ethical, by the way?

One of the reasons I disagree with ISFp is their gentle and smiley appearance which I don't think I have. Also the manipulative creative and the optimistic nature is very uncharacteristic of me. Another thing about ISFps that I don't relate to and I hate in other people is their enjoyment in sharing stories and experiences with other people. All the rest about ISFPs fits me very well, with a very few exceptions in certain profiles maybe.

[Park]

Do you ever find yourself hoping others ask you questions that you yourself would not ask of others because of its seemingly irrational context?

For example, talking to someone about their job and they say, "I'm a dittit dada coordinater/lead hand/safety inspector" and you keep waiting for them add, "so what do you think about THAT?" in the hopes you can have a more heart-to-heart, less superficial conversation about their work. I realize this is an awkward example, but basically it boils down to me loving to answer 'real' questions, but often ones, like I said, I probably wouldn't ask of others myself.

Well, I don't know if I can understand correctly what you're reffering to but I think I can only relate partially. I usually don't wait to be asked for my opinion because I don't think it really matters(or if I have it at all). Things are the way they are and subjective opinion means nothing to me. But I definitely agree that I dislike superficial discussions and I always look for more meaningful and reasonable conversations, which I usually, as you said, wait the others to initiate. I would gladly discuss the details about someones jobs and share my knowledge but I would not reffer to it as sharing personal opinions. I look at it more objectively and what I really like and appreciate is the objective (or practical) knowledge, not the personal opinion.

[force my hand]

I have yet to read anything here that goes against a sensory ESTj. The logical and sensory ESTjs share the same outlook on things, but their attitudes are very different.


Last minute for sure. For example, I have a math final coming up in two weeks - I'll start studying the day before.

Is this stressful for you, or you enjoy doing things in the last minute?

It's both, really. I mean, I never get to it because I've always 'got time' to do it 'later', and I get distracted by 'this, that and the other' (ie. reading and responding to brazenly shameless threads about myself), but then reality sets in and so does my work ethic. "I have to do this NOW", and I will put in hours of unbroken time to complete the goal. I get a kick out of pure productivity, but I'm also left thinking "you really gotta get your act together!".

That's in my personal time. When I'm at work, I'm very focused and productive ALL the time (I work 12 hour shifts). I'm one of those 20% who does 80% of the work and everyone knows it. My work nickname is 'superman' because of it.

If I'm in a high energy mood yes, if subdued, I don't even try. Sometimes if I've met someone new when I was in 'fine form' and then see them again when I'm not, I can tell they're just waiting for me to do something 'interesting' and then when I don't, they're disappointed, and I almost feel rejected by not acting as they think I should.

From this I ask you: do you prefer to tell negative jokes? Like "that color is so ugly," "that guy is an idiot" (with your personal reason). Given a comfortable environment though.

I love to rag on inatimate objects, but rarely people. Whenever I see that kind of behaviour going on behind the target's back, my first instinct is to want to squish the detractor like a bug. If I'm going to make fun of people, it's always light-hearted, and it's always in front of them.

My preferred method of goofing around is making remarks about situations. Case in point tonight: We have a broom-like tool with a magnetic strip that's used to collect screws off the floor. I saw my co-worker coming towards me with it in his hand, so I said, "Oooh, look at the chick magnet!" and then I made some crude crack about using the tool to detect if a woman has pierced genitals. Then he made mention his wife had a pierced 'nether region' and we both agreed he should try bringing a magnet to bed (yeah I know, but it was funny at the time).

Good at avoiding, in general. Heated conflicts are very rare for me, but when they do happen they tend to be spectacular, and born out of frustration for a situation and not a specifc something someone has said or done.

By spectacular, do you mean a little aggresive and high-toned?

It takes a lot to get me angry, but some things will stew over time, and for example, if my work isn't going right because I don't have parts, or ones that are incorrectly built, and my lead hands are being jackasses and not solving the problems... sparks fly. I'm not proud of it, but I have on occassion just flat out verbally attacked them with a lot of colourful language. ...which usually results in me being hauled into the office where we have another row for 10-15 minutes. I have a bad outburst like that maybe once a year - usually any anger I have is stated neutrally with specific conditions for what I want done to solve the problem.

When there is a problem, I fix it. Nothing bugs me more than finding out something is wrong, and then having 2 or 3 guys standing around for 5 minutes humming and hawing over what should be done, how it happened, why the other shift sucks so much, etc. etc. If it's broken - get a new piece. If it's on wrong, unscrew it and put in on properly. If it's scratched, set it aside so as to not impact the flow of the line and reorder it. All very simple, but it really seems like some people cannot begin to solve a problem until they've come to terms emotionally that a problem exists within whatever little reality they inhabit.

Do you ever find yourself hoping others ask you questions that you yourself would not ask of others because of its seemingly irrational context?

For example, talking to someone about their job and they say, "I'm a dittit dada coordinater/lead hand/safety inspector" and you keep waiting for them add, "so what do you think about THAT?" in the hopes you can have a more heart-to-heart, less superficial conversation about their work. I realize this is an awkward example, but basically it boils down to me loving to answer 'real' questions, but often ones, like I said, I probably wouldn't ask of others myself.

you don't ask because you feel that it is their own business? Maybe you want to have discussions where your career title isn't the center of the conversation. Is that a reason too?

I don't ask it because it sounds so out of left-field. I'm great with answering weird questions posed to me, but people aren't great with answering ones *I* ask. I'm sure if I said, "I'm a production worker, what do you think of THAT?" people would be like "errr? Is he being a dick? Is he insinuating he's better than me?" instead of how I hope they would respond, "well, the socio-economic position of blue collar young men in the 21st century paints an interesting dichotomy between..." You just would not get the latter example and instead most people would take emotional affront or just not understand the context of the question to begin with.

Are you good at scheduling? I have yet to hear of an ENTj who cannot organize his time, which I doubt you are. Maybe I am wrong.

I love to plan and schedule; following those plans and schedules is something else entirely. I've been doing some thinking on this lately, and I've realized I like and need an underlying structure to my daily life, but that I also like and need the opportunity to mix it up. For example, working nights, I planned to be in bed this morning shortly after I got home so I could get up early this afternoon and get some business done. Now, 3 hours later, I'm still up, and I still will get my business done, it will just be later because I will have slept in. Instead of paying my phone bill in person at the kiosk (because it'll be closed by the time I get there), I'll probably just do it online and then get my groceries at leisure sometime late in the evening.

[force my hand]

who said anything about good or bad??? We are all someone's conflicting partner... that doesn't make anyone good or bad or whatever. Crimany!

I'm sure we would get along great.

...Especially if you were wearing that outfit you posted a link to in another thread. :wink:

[FDG]

After your last response, you're ENTj.

[Joy]

I couldn't agree more

just out of curiosity though... which thread?

[force my hand]

I couldn't agree more

just out of curiosity though... which thread?

I don't know... it was quite old. I've read most of this forum in the past week, so asking me to pinpoint where is tough.

[Joy]

LOL it's okay, I have a pretty good idea...

but trust me... you're ENTj :wink:

Your conflicting partner is stating so, as well as other people from your quadra, including your identical...

[Gilly]

Uhhhhhh...

ENTj.

[Joy]

In fact, I'll go as far as to say you're a Te subtype.

Most dynamic of all psycho-types, pioneer in his region of activity, searches for the supporters, with whom it is possible to together realize its or general ideas. It is very emotional and impulsive; therefore it can be inconsistent in the matters. It is trusting, because of its carelessness it can fall into the different histories, it seems spontaneous. It can well appear itself into the free of market activity, if it loses - it does not lose the presence of spirit and optimism, it again goes forward. Little attention it gives to the exterior view and the health, it is outwardly thin, very mobile, it sometimes bears beard and whiskers, it occurs, which conducts the disorderly means of life.

What do you think?

[Arcanum]

Arcanum wrote:

Are you good at scheduling? I have yet to hear of an ENTj who cannot organize his time, which I doubt you are. Maybe I am wrong.



ENTj + and - wrote:

Organising everyday matters can cause you considerable difficulty.


http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/entj.htm

it's actually not an ENTj strength. at least not all the time.

Organizing your time, and being able to fit things in a schedule are two different things. My impression, which might be wrong, is that ENTjs have an understanding of time which in extremes can make them put too many things in their schedule. If they know that they do not have the time for something however, they will not do it. On the other hand, ESTjs (sensory in particular) in extremities will put a lot of things in their day without considering that they may not have time for them.

Arcanum wrote:

Quote:
I prefer having by-the-book directions because it saves time and wasted effort, but I can find anything if need be. I've never been 'lost' driving around an unfamiliar part of town.


Fits an ESTj sensory type well.



or an ENTj wanting to pull towards ESTp. (;

Considering that he has never been lost driving, I would say that it is an unconscious representation of , since it comes naturally to him (no conscious effort). Maybe he can provide more info if this is not true.

Arcanum wrote:
Do you like when people give you instructions how to do things or teach you how to do things?

Quote:

It depends on what it is. If it's something abstract like math, then yes. Anything more flexible and free-flowing, though, I'd rather be given a list of things to avoid as opposed to a set of instructions because I can usually figure it out myself, and enjoy the experience.


I think this is related.


why? this just sounds like gamma-style advice/instruction. focusing on the "don't's" instead of the "do's" and not reading the manual.

I am basing it on functions, rather than the particular quadra. Being told what to do in an abstract subject, makes me think that it is not relying on an intuitive function, which in this case I suspect is .

Quote:
Do you ever find yourself hoping others ask you questions that you yourself would not ask of others because of its seemingly irrational context?

For example, talking to someone about their job and they say, "I'm a dittit dada coordinater/lead hand/safety inspector" and you keep waiting for them add, "so what do you think about THAT?" in the hopes you can have a more heart-to-heart, less superficial conversation about their work. I realize this is an awkward example, but basically it boils down to me loving to answer 'real' questions, but often ones, like I said, I probably wouldn't ask of others myself.

you don't ask because you feel that it is their own business? Maybe you want to have discussions where your career title isn't the center of the conversation. Is that a reason too?



I don't ask it because it sounds so out of left-field. I'm great with answering weird questions posed to me, but people aren't great with answering ones *I* ask. I'm sure if I said, "I'm a production worker, what do you think of THAT?" people would be like "errr? Is he being a dick? Is he insinuating he's better than me?" instead of how I hope they would respond, "well, the socio-economic position of blue collar young men in the 21st century paints an interesting dichotomy between..." You just would not get the latter example and instead most people would take emotional affront or just not understand the context of the question to begin with.

After you said this, then you might be ENTj after all. However, I think I may have a question that will help (bear with me on this):

Which quality would you prefer in a mate? or rather which would you be more attractive to?:

a) someone who is aggresive at times in how they talk. In extremes can be aggressively bitchy, but in an ethical way, as in it being not being intended to harm you.

b) someone who is not aggressive in how they talk. In extremes can be aloof and contemplative, but in an ethical way, as in wanting to find the meaning of people's existence.

[XoX]

I couldn't agree more

just out of curiosity though... which thread?

I don't know... it was quite old. I've read most of this forum in the past week, so asking me to pinpoint where is tough.

You are no ESTj They would know immediately which thread and which post it was. Your latest long post was pretty ENTj btw. I don't trust this kind of typing 100% (you could always project a fake image consciously or subconsciously) but ENTj seems a very good option. Especially your sense of humor sounds very ENTj to me.

[Park]

I vote ENTj for force_my_hand, too. The only other type I would consider him to be is ESTj.

[Olga]

Winterpark wrote:

I tend to leave almost everything for the last minute. I can do wonders in the last minute. I can do things that many people can not do with all the preparation they might have.


If you don't like to make plans and feel the time well enough - so you can be flexible and go with a flow, so you must be irrational.

I prefer to take my time and don't like to rush but I always end up rushing somehow. I think it's mainly due to my lazyness and inabillity (or will) to organize my time efficiently.

If your third function is then you will be rushing as if you do not have enough time.


Yeah, I 'm fine with it as long as it is about learning something new. That's the best way to learn and I can learn a lot from even a single stingy source of information. But when people make me do things their way I don't like it at all.

Well, it can be interpreted differently. I do like when people give me instructions as I feel I need the guidance. I do not like to read instructions - I find them boring. If you like to read instructions and take your time to read them - you could be a logical type? I got as the third function. If you don't feel you need guidance and can figure out things yourself , so may be due to having + ?

Well, sometimes. Especially when the situation envolves a discussion of my behavior and actions. But I usually try to stay out of those kind of situations. And I HATE CONFRONTATION!!!

[i] This could be the result of having as fourth function if you are ISTP. I thought ISFP would not like confrontation too.

Well, as force my hand said:

Sometimes if I've met someone new when I was in 'fine form' and then see them again when I'm not, I can tell they're just waiting for me to do something 'interesting' and then when I don't, they're disappointed, and I almost feel rejected by not acting as they think I should.

That 's exactly how I feel.

Well, I thought it is natural for introverts who can show their from time to time but not as a base function.

Quote:
How often do you get into conflicts - I assume you are good at avoiding them, would it be right?


I try to avoid them, yes, but I do tend to put myself into them more often then I 'd like to. And I 'm very bad at dealing with them, especially when there's both sense(logic) and feelings(personal) that I need to consider. I think I can reason logicaly pretty well but I never ignore my feelings when making desicions. I always try to find a balance.


Not sure. You said you are bad at dealing with conflicts and you get often into them. It may be a sign of being logical and not feeling the relationships and other's feelings. it could be a weak ethics?

Quote:
How do you feel when you see others arguing?


Well, it depends on the subject and the type of argument. I might hate it and despise it or I might find it interesting. In general I dislike rows and quarrels that have the potential to lead to violence but I can freely accept arguments with strong (or at least reasonable) logical or ethical grounds and more formal character.

Quote:
Do you usually feel how people relate to you, for example, do you know if they like you or not?


I don't know. I think I can usually sense how the other person feels about me, regardless the facade (s)he might be putting on. I can spot pretending very easily, except when it 's done very carefully and on the long term, which would probably take some time, but I 'll know it before it affects me negatively. Or so I think .

This is a feeling quality to know how other people feel about you.


Quote:
how do you buy clothes for yourself, do you touch things or buy by the look only?


When I buy something I have to try it and make sure I feel comfortable in(/with) it. So I definitely touch things . And I am very indecisive when it comes to choosing between two or more similar items. Actually, they don't have to be similar, but the obligation to decide between a number of things I like, really freaks me out.

This is a sensorical quality (try and touch). And I am very slow about decisions when I have a huge choice. I thought it is an ethical quality, when you consider many options, it is not like things are clear cut. but of course it could be a different function at work. It may be a weak intuition too.

What is interesting, you show as if you are not sure which quality is stronger in you or and there is no consideration of ethics whatsoever in your type suggestion. According to my theory, ethics will be the fourth function then. Suggesting ISTP. They don't like expression of emotions, it is what you wrote in your late posts. Are you happy to consider yourself as ISTP? I wrote an article about ISTP, have a look at it and tell me if you don't fit and why?

What about force my hand, are you happy to be ENTJ, do you agree with that or still any doubts?

[force my hand]

What about force my hand, are you happy to be ENTJ, do you agree with that or still any doubts?

It's possible.

I thank everyone for their input in this thread, but to be honest I haven't really given it much thought lately.