Aspergers related to socionics type?

[xixi]

the neural mechanisms that underlie Aspergers and the formation of type may very well be interrelated, especially considering the intergrated nature of the brain. in the case of AS, abnormalities such as reduced connectivity are broad reaching - they affect the entire neural network, so it stands to reason that AS is going to have an effect on the development of personality.

if aspergers sufferers appear to resemble certain types but not others (as they indeed do), it is not unreasonable to conclude that the AS condition predisposes individuals to certain functional profiles/types. whether model A manifests in AS individuals in the same way as it does in neurotypicals is unclear (probably it doesn't). i speculate that there are differences in the interaction between functions as individuals develop (reduced interaction perhaps, with certain functions impaired to begin with). repeated failures in social situations as a result of AS may cause individuals to become socially isolated. this, along with other environmental cues associated with AS may in turn also have an affect on the strength and ordering of various functions.

that AS sufferers use some functions better than others seems to be the case when we examine their behaviour/functional differences. they can be remarkably good at pattern recognition, logical deduction, and understanding complex systems (Ne, Ti); some have semi-photographic memories and heightened vision/hearing/smell etc (Si?, mentally manipulating visual objects). but generally all are poor at recognising emotional and cognitive states in others according to non-verbal cues (Fi) and expressing their own thoughts and feelings in a socially appropriate manner (Fe). to give a concrete example of this, a conversation with an AS friend:

friend: so what are your plans for tomorrow?
me: i have to take my mum to see a lung specialist actually. she's been coughing a lot lately, and we're afraid it might be the beginning of lung cancer that could have spread from her breast cancer. she's just had radiotherapy.
friend: oh, fair enough.

individuals with the visual subtype of AS (the above friend is an example) have a weakened ability to abstract. for instance, they cannot do algebra since they have great difficulty comprehending that the letters stand for numbers. this seems to imply directly weakened Ni and Ne. a direct result of this weakened ability to abstract is that for such individuals to be aware of an object/person/event/situation, that thing/person needs to be in the AS sufferer's physical presence. in other words, they have an impaired ability to imagine what they have not experienced. and what they do not experience repeatedly or continuously, they will forget/fail to recall/keep in mind. this means that they cannot imagine scenarios that are verbalized to them in the same way that neurotypicals can. in the above conversation, my friend does not recognize what i must be thinking/feeling in my situation because he has never been through that situation before. he cannot and does not imagine it, and as a result, he does not empathize or sympathize as a neurotypical would. this isn't to say that he's a bad guy. he's a great person, with a big heart and a lot of love to give, but he just isn't great at 'cottoning on' to what the other person's thinking or feeling.

[Reuben]

Now bee, of course you knew I wanted it to.

If you ever drop by Singapore, drop me a line as well. We can chat over a cup of coffee, and you can slap me there.

xixi seems to have a point. But I think it all depends on whether or not you see asperger's as the result of the lack of healthy brain development and/or brain damage, or if you see asperger's as the result of a particular specimen of sociotype becoming overly obsessed with his or her own ego function and not developing the super ego functions, possibly due to a poor, or rather, unsuitable family environment (e.g. a whole bunch of conflictors, supervisors, quasi-identity etc.).

Btw, is reading non-verbal cues exclusively Fi? I am more inclined to think that it is an intertwining of both ethical functions. Fe notices non-verbal cues, while Fi is a basis to judge what those cues mean.

Also, just to expand, Fe's emotional expression requires real Fi internal emotions before it can actually work well and be convincing. I guess, if my understanding is correct, we'll be able to judge if you're a Fe ego or Fi ego if you're bored more with feeling your own emotions or noticing and expressing emotions respectively.

Back to asperger's it seems that the whole ethical domain has been suppressed. The most likely reason would be the latter reason I stated above. I believe the former reason is the result of the latter.

[xixi]

xixi seems to have a point. But I think it all depends on whether or not you see asperger's as the result of the lack of healthy brain development and/or brain damage, or if you see asperger's as the result of a particular specimen of sociotype becoming overly obsessed with his or her own ego function and not developing the super ego functions, possibly due to a poor, or rather, unsuitable family environment (e.g. a whole bunch of conflictors, supervisors, quasi-identity etc.).

Btw, is reading non-verbal cues exclusively Fi? I am more inclined to think that it is an intertwining of both ethical functions. Fe notices non-verbal cues, while Fi is a basis to judge what those cues mean.

Also, just to expand, Fe's emotional expression requires real Fi internal emotions before it can actually work well and be convincing. I guess, if my understanding is correct, we'll be able to judge if you're a Fe ego or Fi ego if you're bored more with feeling your own emotions or noticing and expressing emotions respectively.

Back to asperger's it seems that the whole ethical domain has been suppressed. The most likely reason would be the latter reason I stated above. I believe the former reason is the result of the latter.

It's not exactly a question of belief...
Aspergers is a brain disorder - people are born with it. There are organic abnormalities in the brain at birth. It is not a developmental order, that is, a disorder that requires certain environmental cues in order to form.

I doubt that AS individuals become 'obsessed' in the way neurotypicals become obsessed...they can develop extremely intensive fascinations with esoteric subjects that grab their interest. also, many have OCD. their obsessions have a compulsive aspect. i suspect that their lack of awareness of other people and of themselves (of their place, of social expectations) plays a disinhibiting role in their compulsiveness. that is, they don't have the same inhibitions as normal ppl might b/c they lack awareness of social norms, and lack social instinct in general. i'm also inclined to think that the lack of connectivity in the brain plays a role in their tendency to stay concentrated on one thing for long periods of time. their less inclined to form abstract thoughts in the form of fantasies, daydream; more time and attention, more conscious space if you will, is focused on the known reality - their external world, and their subjective reactions to that world.

reading cues is a reactive process. isn't Fe proactive, and Fi the reactive function?

AS individuals can and often do feel strongly, and care deeply about others. In general, they are very loyal, trustworthy, honest ppl who try to be decent, fair, and giving in their interactions with others. it is reading cues, and mentally putting themselves in another's shoes that they are very bad at. so to say that 'their ethical domain has been suppressed' perhaps doesn't quite capture the exact nature of their deficit.

[Reuben]

This is where I got my Fe info from: Socionics : Extraverted Ethics

Also, I am actually more inclined now to believe that asperger's is not a birth defect, but a developmental disorder that is either acquired from childhood all the way back to early infant-hood or even in the mother's womb.

Why do I say this? Have you ever been in an oppressive environment that inhibits all your natural inclinations, drives, and interests? How did you feel? Usually you get headaches accompanied with feelings of resentment or rejection. Imagine feeling like that (subconsciously or unconsciously) while you were being formed, being given birth to (a non beneficial sociotype's presence can easily cause one to feel such discomfort even without 'direct' contact or communication), and growing up. If you don't become slightly messed up (I'm not saying this to diss people, I'm just plainly stating things frankly), I'll be quite surprised. I know this because to some extent, I'm subject to that too. The reason why I do not have asperger's was because I was lucky enough to have a caring, though socionically unbeneficial family, intelligence that I did not deserve to possess, and relatively good looks that made people more attracted to me than repulsed to me. All these built on to the me now, that to some extent, is attractive enough to some people to make me feel good about myself. People with asperger's got the shorter end of the stick and spiraled downwards due to lack of support, sometimes to the extent of almost being unable to get out of the rut (I still think it's possible, but extremely difficult and requiring of extreme outside help). I love these guys, because despite all the crap they face, they still love others, though they can't show it.

Enough of the rant and back to the theory. This kinds of oppressive environment will probably result in actual physical defects in the brain that lead to emotional inhibition and preference for mental activities. It sounds extremely ILI to me in all biased honesty.

In fact, were an ILI to be completely uninhibited with his ego block (plus perhaps, lacking a whole bunch of Fi), he will exhibit asperger-like symptoms. This is in fact the thing that a couple of SLE's were talking about in the beta forum section - the apparent lack of social interest of a clearly Ni-leading sociotype, either ILI or IEI (probably very young, so the preference for and or skill of her extraverted function has yet to develop).

I agree though, that merely stating that their ethical functions have been suppressed does not fully capture the nature of their deficit. I hope my further elaboration does, although I would say that some parts are slightly esoteric to some people, but it sounds like common sense to me. I'll be glad to hear if you have differing opinions. You are very knowledgeable on this subject since you have first-hand experience, which I respect.

[tcaudilllg]

The DSM is not the best tool for understanding personality. It can be a starting point, but the fact of the matter is that these disorders are defined as a spectrum -- there is lots of data but very little theory behind it. It's stylish now to use "scales" which assume a "gradient" of a certain factor, without actually understanding the peculiars of any given point on the gradient nor even why the factor becomes increasingly exaggerated as you go up the scale. Instead there is the pretense of an "agreement" which is supposed to invoke awe and reverence whether it is real or something made up through arm twisting and coercion. But to really understand personality, you MUST use dichotomies because personality is about preferences first, behavior second.

The only factor I've been able to discern that all Aspies have in common -- and I have known people who have Aspergers, because they are "around" -- is a sense of removal from the subjective. In essence it's the disposition to be a manipulator of people. Not in the sense of taking advantage, mind you, but of simply seeing people as objects without "souls". Imagine observing the mechanical side of the functions without seeing any of the personal side of them, and that's what Aspergers autism is like -- or so it seems to me. Personally I think Aspergers' diagnosed individuals know best what the syndrome is.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[xixi]

The only factor I've been able to discern that all Aspies have in common -- and I have known people who have Aspergers, because they are "around" -- is a sense of removal from the subjective. In essence it's the disposition to be a manipulator of people. Not in the sense of taking advantage, mind you, but of simply seeing people as objects without "souls". Imagine observing the mechanical side of the functions without seeing any of the personal side of them, and that's what Aspergers autism is like -- or so it seems to me.

Hmmm, check out this guy...He's the closest to 'normal' case of Aspergers i've ever seen...

[tcaudilllg]

This is Aspergers.