Quadra Dynamics

[FDG]

How would you reconcile the two? In your scheme Delta appears to occupy an effective center of society while Gulenko sees Delta as on the furthest periphery!

Beta - Highest-raking government civil servants, politicians, terrorists, etc. "Central" in everyday happenings, most likely to make it to the newspapers
Delta - Management, Technical leadership in concrete sphere (say, healthcare) "Peripheral" in everyday happenings, least likely to make it to the newspapers

[krieger]

Beta - Highest-raking government civil servants, politicians, terrorists, etc. "Central" in everyday happenings, most likely to make it to the newspapers
Delta - Management, Technical leadership in concrete sphere (say, healthcare) "Peripheral" in everyday happenings, least likely to make it to the newspapers

I agree (in the general sense of it).

[strrrng]

Also, I do want to take issue somewhat with the idea that the delta quadra as a whole tends to regard the past with suspicion. I have found that many deltas are of the conservative/traditionalist mindset, in which contemporary times are constantly compared to (somewhat idealized) past conditions, especially in the realm of morality. "back in the day," "I remember when," "used to be" are all phrases I associate with this mindset. Now, this could simply be weak Ni as opposed to unvalued Ni, or it could be that your definition needs a bit of refining (or it could be that my observation is off), to say something more akin to, "delta regards overarching interpretations of the past, or assumptions about historical trends with suspicion."

I agree. I think there's an aspect of the Ne/Si mindset that entails an attitude of universal occurrence (i.e. 'this has happened many times before, and continues to repeat' -- hence how Ne permutates to give diversity), and when coupled with Fi/Te in deltas, takes on a more classical, wistful quality.

The opening and closing scenes of No Country for Old Men embody this perfectly IMO. I see Tommy Lee Jones' character as an archetypal LSE, probably Si subtype. His solemn, somewhat gentle reminiscences on the purity of the old days that has been spoiled by this new, dark force, along with the faint recollection of a dream symbolizing the 'path carved out' by the past and the inevitable repetition of human existence in pursuit of ideals, demonstrates this quadra theme well.



"I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job, but I don't want to push my chips forward and go out and meet something I don't understand. A man would have to put his soul at hazard – he'd have to say, 'Ok, I'll be part of this world.'"



"When he rode past, I seen he was carrying fire in a horn the way people used to do -- I could see the horn from the light inside of it, about the color of the moon. And in the dream I knew that he was going on ahead, he was fixing to make a fire somewhere out in all that dark, in all that cold; I knew that whenever I got there, he'd be there. Then I woke up."

[Gilly]

The proposal that Delta occupies some sort of equilibrium position at the full fruition of an idea (or set of ideas) makes conceptual sense to me .. so it will be accepted at face value at least for now .... good work!

It seems to me delta is interested in new ideas but only ones that can be implemented without disruption to an existing hierarchy ..... (Aristocratic) ..... Alpha on the other hand values and considers new ideas without such constraints thus setting off the chain of events you describe.

Now Gulenko says this ....

"If we compare the degree of peripheralness, then further from the focus of the attention of sotsiuma is located fourth kvadra. Fourth kvadra is opposite to the second, which always most probable aspirant to the central position........"

How would you reconcile the two? In your scheme Delta appears to occupy an effective center of society while Gulenko sees Delta as on the furthest periphery!

Do you think it possible that both schemes can be correct?

Is it possible that the same basic mechanism is always operation but what we see in terms of society ultimately comes down to the length of the cycle of change (from delta back to delta). Could it be that rapidly advancing societies (eg USA) look primarily alpha-beta-gamma (mostly beta-gamma) while stagnant ones (eg. middle ages) are predominantly delta?

FDG explains it well, I think. From a Beta perspective, Deltas are stereotypically what Vladamir Lenin referred to as "useful idiots" (credit goes to Expat for that one).

[Krig the Viking]

Alpha characterized by Chaos, but also peaceful.
Beta characterized by War, but also chaotic.
Gamma characterized by Order, but also war-like.
Delta characterized by Peace, but also ordered.

I like this. Alpha is Chaotic Peace, Beta is Chaotic War, Gamma is Orderly War, and Delta is Orderly Peace.

Interesting that Ti should be associated with "Chaos", since I associate it with being the most systematic and orderly element. However, I can see how a focus inventing new systems (Alpha) and implementing new systems (Beta) would be chaotic -- it's the conflict between the old and new systems, and until one emerges as superior, there is no overall order in society. Gamma and Delta, on the other hand, are content to let systems stay as they are, while they focus on efficiency (Te).

If I'm correct in my correlation between Strauss and Howe's work and the Quadra succession, I would say that the current highly polarized political climate -- The Culture Wars -- is a result of a Beta generation (the Baby Boomers) being in charge of all the highest levels of politics and power. There is a conflict between two competing Ti systems: conservatism and liberalism, right-wing and left-wing, or whatever you want to call them.

As the Boomers grow old and leave power, and Gen X takes over, I expect the focus will shift to matters of pragmatism and efficiency, not ideals and political systems.

[Park]

FDG explains it well, I think. From a Beta perspective, Deltas are stereotypically what Vladamir Lenin referred to as "useful idiots" (credit goes to Expat for that one).

Use me baby one more time! Oh yeah!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

How in the world does USA 'rapidly advance?' People are so distraught here emotionally and pscyhologically and socially. Who cares if we are the most powerful economically and uh...military? if the psychological and social skills are all gone to shit, other countries are just sooooooooooooooooooooo much ahead as far as social comfort, and that effects our inner peace and overall health, etc.

If the USA could balance itself emotionally and psychologically, if sociopath-ness wasn't rewarded so much, if people could just chill out and calm the fuck down while they talked to each other, and weren't so fat and lazy and arrogant, then yeah we'd be pretty bitchin. Just cause we can build another Useless Mall USA and value economic Te up the wazoo doesn't mean we 'rapidly advance.' All a matter of perspective. But it's kind of hard to come by cause realistically, you can't 'buy or sell' emotions like the USA tries to, it's something that Te or money or power can't really fix and so the USA feels at a lost. You could just say' move to canada' or something but if the socially aware people did that USA would surely self-destruct and people would start axe murdering others for the most simple of social errors.

and just because the united states has good minority rights policies doesn't mean shit, they don't really care about the minority's feelings or history it's just something to make sure all people are consuming. It's not done out of a genuine respect but more of some weird custom 'moral law' thing. it's fake corporate socialism and not the real thing. it's soooo fake and socipoathic. i see right thru it.

there's just too much social tension here. it is not healthy.

[Linas]

soa, since im a '86er myself, i believe Im one of the most fucked up ppl outhere. simply because, I'm neither one, neither the other. Seriously. I read that ENTp's translations and it was good. I got nomad and this newest one. So, it's obvious, and of course it was that way throughout my whole life. And it sucks. Since, I'm trying to figure out my values (=parents) and possibilieties (=oh, what should I do thing). and while, if I wanted I could do anything, I actually don't reach anything, or maybe everything. ehh, not sure, remember colapsing those mother bitches over us in 09-11, and I feel sorta cool... terified but cool. It was fun, the world was gettin to crisis, and it was ummn, something-something. 'Go to hell! I need nobody, noone but me will responsible for this whole shit that's gon' to be/happen'.

[Nexus]

Turtles Forever : Turtles Forever Video Episode - 4KidsTV.com

quadra progression:

old TMNT - β

new TMNT - γ

[Nexus]

That's an entirely cute image.

kind of; it is more like serious is trying to support result (carefree) or demean process (farsighted), where merry types are doing the opposite - supervision direction indicates this

[Nexus]

It's still a cute image whether or not it is correct (I was not commenting on its correctness).

RAAR

[Krig the Viking]

I think Ti easily lends itself to chaos because it also tends to be more "personal", and personal convictions (or sentiments) are much more motivating, and more defended, than stuff like pragmatism.

Te is relatively open-ended and something people will tend to agree on at least some of the time, and who will start a war over something like profit margins (I'm being overly simplistic, but bear with me)? But if you're a devout Catholic and he's a devout Muslim, or if you vote Greens and she's a member of the AGW Skeptics Party, all hell might break loose, at least if you're very passionate (you should see me and my brother go at it -- we're naturally peaceful people and we can get along fine but we're also ideologically opposed in just about every way, and if we get started on politics it's not peaceful at all).

Because Ti tends to be a more overarching system, changing the system will result in greater upheaval (regardless of your quadra). If it's on a society or group level, the transition will probably be very chaotic. If it's on a personal level you might be sent into a kind of "crisis" where you're forced to rethink everything, which is potentially distressing.

The part I bolded there raises another important point -- Ti types are also Fe-valuing. Passion and emotion are the fires that motivate Ti/Fe types to act on their convictions. Te/Fi types find such passion counter-productive.

[Gilly]

When looking at rational functions and their progression, what strikes me as most clear about their respective goals is that Ti/Fe is inherently more bent on rapid, large-scale change, whereas Te/Fi is more rooted in maintenance and upkeep; throw in the assumption that Logic is motivated by Ethics, and you see that Fe/Ti is concentrated on getting one result at the behest of conviction, while Te/Fi is focused on taking care of its multitude of tasks at the behest of subjective prioritization. If we break down Se/Ni and Ne/Si in a similar manner, we see that Se/Ni is focused on waiting until the right time to influence its environment with optimum impact, while Ne/Si is focused on consistently adjusting its environment to support a climate for generation of ideas.

Using these two assumptions, we can see where conflicts between quadras come from: Alpha maintains its environment to support generation of ideas that are geared towards rapid change at the behest of conviction, Beta waits for the right time to strike with optimum impact to implement rapid change at the behest of conviction, Gamma waits for the right time to strike with optimum impact to establish subjective priorities and seek to maintain their objective means, and Delta maintains its environment to support generation of ideas that are geared towards promoting their subjective priorities and maintaining their practical means.

[717495]

Wow, a lot of this thread is bull shit, unfinished inventions, science fiction, uninteresting nonsense. I just hope people aren't taking this too seriously (aka: realize this is just speculation, but maybe think things through a little better before you post it?) All of these categories you people create for the quadras, types, IMs etc. which don't make any sense at all and never will, just tend to get on my nerves. Eh sorry to ruin the conversation, and I'm not trying to come across as self-righteous, I just see this crap all the time and never say anything about it. Carry on, or whatever.

[717495]

No offense, but stuff like this often comes from users like labcoat, Azeroffs, Archon. These correlations which don't make any sense and are just dry clumps of dirt and incredibly nonspecific, sounds like you have nothing better to do and are just inventing things out of thin air. It's not really a bad thing objectively, but it's just really annoying to hear it being taken seriously all the time.

Stuff like :
Alpha characterized by Chaos, but also peaceful.
Beta characterized by War, but also chaotic.
Gamma characterized by Order, but also war-like.
Delta characterized by Peace, but also ordered.

and

"Ti types are also Fe-valuing. Passion and emotion are the fires that motivate Ti/Fe types to act on their convictions. Te/Fi types find such passion counter-productive."

What do you mean "such passion?" Elaborate on such. Are you saying that ILIs aren't passionate or don't take their passion seriously? Why would Fe types have passion more so than Fi types?

Just because you can see something, doesn't mean you're identifying it correctly. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about when you identify alphas and betas by their passion, and are discluding half of the world's population from a category. Sounds like a secret code.

[Gilly]

Fe PoLR types are known for thinking that emotional displays or outbursts are petty and unproductive, and get in the way of clear thinking. Fe/Ti types tend to think that these displays are the RESULT of clear thinking.

[717495]

Ah, so external emotion. Ok then, shut the hell up about passion.

It's useless to say that Fe-PoLRs necessarily never ponder their emotions or think that a good emotional outcome is positive. That's just inhuman, despite us often seeming inhuman anyway. I guess there is just a lot of misunderstanding about these two types that people have. Maybe people haven't taken the time to talk to an ILI or SLI about things, and looked beyond their external appearance and what they usually talk about.

[717495]

.

Yes, well there are obviously people who don't think so, and that's where the initial problem creates these kinds of fallacies. Attributing passion to certain types, more than others. But I think this is a typical alpha NT thing to do: is to redefine a certain word to make it mean something different.

[717495]

I still place it in the same category with all this other nonsense. The word passion used in any way to contrast Fe from Fi is wretched and decieving. Don't you people know how to create a new word? Bwevefs. There I just did it. I even created a hyperlink to its source. But since the word passion is such a tradition in the socionics community, then so much more of the crap I am seeing on here might as well be a valued tradition of socionics, (like this. this must be one of the originals) just so long as everyone remembers to redefine and remove able words from the dictionary, and try hard to think of it as cogent. So let's keep it without a fret, because I am so very progressive.

[717495]

LIIs are so much more passionate than ILIs. Damn, I got to remember that one from now on. I could have really used that somewhere.

[Gilly]

This is an interesting perspective, and possibly better than the traditional way of considering Alpha first. It also makes sense from a kind of "evolutionary" perspective, if you consider Alpha the quadra of memetic mutations. You need a baseline level of stable survival (Delta, maybe) in order for new ideas to flourish (Alpha, maybe), which is why religion and philosophy in Egypt was so far ahead of its neighbours, living on the banks of the Nile mostly ensured the success of agriculture and the Egyptians had a lot of time on their hands to think about other things.

I might have more to say later.

Bolded is essentially identical to my thoughts on the matter.

[Gilly]

Ah, so external emotion. Ok then, shut the hell up about passion.

You're getting very passionate here, no?

It's not just external emotion, though; not by any means. It's about placing an emphasis on natural reactions to situations, an assumption that our emotions tell us something about how we should live. It's an almost naturalistic perspective, in a way; more partial, holistic, less starkly practical than Te/Fi. Ever seen the movie Equilibrium? Classic example of an unhealthy Delta society being overturned by a Beta coup. What about Garden State? Classic Alpha lament of Gamma-esque external circumstances.

It's useless to say that Fe-PoLRs necessarily never ponder their emotions or think that a good emotional outcome is positive. That's just inhuman, despite us often seeming inhuman anyway. I guess there is just a lot of misunderstanding about these two types that people have. Maybe people haven't taken the time to talk to an ILI or SLI about things, and looked beyond their external appearance and what they usually talk about.

Well no shit, Mr. Strawman.

[Gilly]

I still place it in the same category with all this other nonsense. The word passion used in any way to contrast Fe from Fi is wretched and decieving. Don't you people know how to create a new word? Bwevefs. There I just did it.

Yeah, you're not an Alpha

Even the simple fact that you take such violent exception to being alienated from the idea of passion or emotional intensity is telling of your type.

The word "passion" is used both because of its specific nature, and its contextual, relative interpretation when considered with the other terms used to describe the theory. If you object to that, start a fucking movement; everyone else seems to be ok with it, so either we're all brainwashed and need you to shake our cribs, or you're being petty, futile, and childish.

Go ahead, start the movement, so we can see which one it really is.

I even created a hyperlink to its source. But since the word passion is such a tradition in the socionics community, then so much more of the crap I am seeing on here might as well be a valued tradition of socionics, (like this. this must be one of the originals) just so long as everyone remembers to redefine and remove able words from the dictionary, and try hard to think of it as cogent. So let's keep it without a fret, because I am so very progressive.

Words are a stable medium of how people communicate with each other. If you have such a hard time with me or others using the word "passion" as an essential component of Fe/Ti, maybe you should pay Socionix.com a visit; all of the wanna-be Gammas there will be more than happy to accommodate your biases.

[Gilly]

Wow, a lot of this thread is bull shit, unfinished inventions, science fiction, uninteresting nonsense. I just hope people aren't taking this too seriously (aka: realize this is just speculation, but maybe think things through a little better before you post it?) All of these categories you people create for the quadras, types, IMs etc. which don't make any sense at all and never will, just tend to get on my nerves. Eh sorry to ruin the conversation, and I'm not trying to come across as self-righteous, I just see this crap all the time and never say anything about it. Carry on, or whatever.

The conception of Quadra Dynamics is essential to understanding the different roles that types play and, thus, the different social roles people will naturally occupy and the methods of the emergence of their priorities. Quadra dynamics is one of the most useful ways to properly understand Socionics as a whole.

[717495]

You're getting very passionate here, no?

It's not just external emotion, though; not by any means. It's about placing an emphasis on natural reactions to situations, an assumption that our emotions tell us something about how we should live. It's an almost naturalistic perspective, in a way; more partial, holistic, less starkly practical than Te/Fi. Ever seen the movie Equilibrium? Classic example of an unhealthy Delta society being overturned by a Beta coup. What about Garden State? Classic Alpha lament of Gamma-esque external circumstances.

That's sort of more of a difference between logical and ethical types. Logical types don't typically listen to natural reactions in their emotions, reflected by their value system or whatnot, as much as ethical types do. Hence logical vs ethical in the name. EIIs are typically going to place a lot more emphasis on their natural emotional reactions in situations than say LIIs. That's plain as shit.

But I understand your concept.

[Gilly]

That's sort of more of a difference between logical and ethical types. Logical types don't typically listen to natural reactions in their emotions, reflected by their value system or whatnot, as much as ethical types do. Hence logical vs ethical in the name. EIIs are typically going to place a lot more emphasis on their natural emotional reactions in situations than say LIIs. That's plain as shit.

But I understand your concept.

No, sorry you're wrong. Learn the theory.

[717495]

There's nothing to your theory. You have these categories which only exist as stark differences in a theoretical world, and in your movie depictions, which don't hold true in real life. It's a flakey dirt clump.

[Gilly]

When you smash a flaky dirt clump against the real world repeatedly, and it tends to hold up, you have to assume that, well, it might be more than just a flaky dirt clump.

[Krig the Viking]

"Ti types are also Fe-valuing. Passion and emotion are the fires that motivate Ti/Fe types to act on their convictions. Te/Fi types find such passion counter-productive."

What do you mean "such passion?" Elaborate on such. Are you saying that ILIs aren't passionate or don't take their passion seriously? Why would Fe types have passion more so than Fi types?

Just because you can see something, doesn't mean you're identifying it correctly. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about when you identify alphas and betas by their passion, and are discluding half of the world's population from a category. Sounds like a secret code.

Ah, so external emotion. Ok then, shut the hell up about passion.

It's useless to say that Fe-PoLRs necessarily never ponder their emotions or think that a good emotional outcome is positive. That's just inhuman, despite us often seeming inhuman anyway. I guess there is just a lot of misunderstanding about these two types that people have. Maybe people haven't taken the time to talk to an ILI or SLI about things, and looked beyond their external appearance and what they usually talk about.

Fe is internal dynamics of objects. Any changing internal states people have are Fe, and that includes passion, emotion, moods, etc. Fi, by contrast, is all about categorizing and assigning value to relationships, especially interpersonal relationships.

You're right, Fe-PoLRs do ponder their emotions and think that a good emotional outcome is positive -- just like Se-PoLRs ponder physical confrontations and power struggles and consider that a good outcome in those area is positive. Serious and Merry types both experience passion, it's just that Serious types are not motivated by passion and generally consider that too much emphasis on it is silly, useless -- even dangerous, because it distracts from accurate consideration of Te matters.

[717495]

If you're talking from experience, then give me an example. Don't just tell me what I've already heard.

I'd also make a side comment. Your analysis of the code triad is flawed both in structure and observation. Internal, which is already an odd name for the term, seems to be understood to at least a basic extent, but I would not trust your concept of the other 2 at this point.

[Krig the Viking]

If you're talking from experience, then give me an example. Don't just tell me what I've already heard.

I'd also make a side comment. Your analysis of the code triad is flawed both in structure and observation. Internal, which is already an odd name for the term, seems to be understood, but I would not trust your concept of the other 2 at this point.

So if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that passion is not an internal dynamic of objects/people?

[Gilly]

owned.

[717495]

So if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that passion is not an internal dynamic of objects/people?

Where the distinction lies is that internal statics of fields would include passion, emotion, moods, etc. These are just more firmly grounded and subjective, by definition.

You have to realize that the code triad is an analysis of the IMs, not visa versa. This structure did not come about from a random internal model, but one made by observation. The real difference between something like Fe and Fi is far more dynamical than what 3 structural terms can represent. It is a description in of itself.

[Gilly]

lol, dynamical...

Just shut up and accept your type.

[strrrng]

Yes, well there are obviously people who don't think so, and that's where the initial problem creates these kinds of fallacies. Attributing passion to certain types, more than others. But I think this is a typical alpha NT thing to do: is to redefine a certain word to make it mean something different.

I still place it in the same category with all this other nonsense. The word passion used in any way to contrast Fe from Fi is wretched and decieving. Don't you people know how to create a new word? Bwevefs. There I just did it. I even created a hyperlink to its source. But since the word passion is such a tradition in the socionics community, then so much more of the crap I am seeing on here might as well be a valued tradition of socionics, (like this. this must be one of the originals) just so long as everyone remembers to redefine and remove able words from the dictionary, and try hard to think of it as cogent. So let's keep it without a fret, because I am so very progressive.

Criticizing and clarifying the "alpha NT" method of thinking? Nice.

[717495]

lol, dynamical...

Trouble understanding what I am saying? You wouldn't know anything about a dynamical observation if all you do is read stative associations. Some of you NTs I swear, would never have assumed that the information elements are actually dynamical, and made from real imperfect observations. You're just reading your social life off of some laser beam.

[Gilly]

Sorry, not an NT.

Accept your fucking type and move on with life.

[Nexus]

bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla etc

[717495]

Sorry, not an NT.

Yeah so? I never said you were.

Accept your fucking type and move on with life.

Chill. I'm not going anywhere.

[Gilly]

Chill. I'm not going anywhere.

That's the problem.