Confessions of an IEE-ENFp

[Wrong Way Ticket]

I was talking about all Ti types. It doesn't seem to me that we can speak of Ti Creative when it comes to Marie, can we?

Anyway, while "formatting" fits Alpha Ti, "compiling" is rather the Beta Ti one, selection (and maybe own interpretation) but no modification, this seems to me to be what Cyclops was referring at.

Edit @Ryu: if you find no use in this and for you it's just "mental masturbation" then don't get involved. Some people really understand these matters. I though we are here to talk Socionics, not evaluate each other's social skills.
For your information, I'm not aware of what you perceive as "ego contest", it exists only in your fantasy.
Edit2: or maybe it is only your desire to get involved but you don't know how. Either way, it's in your mind only.

Nah, what you and Cyclops have been doing is very typical on this forum: When someone disagrees with you, maybe even mocks you a little bit, question their self-typing.

Thereby achieving two goals: derailing the direction of the thread and subtly making out that the person in question to be a total fool for typing themselves wrongly! You hide behind an argument of "this is a dispassionate analysis of X person's typing. And why there is absolutely no way in hell they're the type they say they are." Then proceed to use forum posts (which, seriously, is not a good enough indicator of personality) and often VI (which is most likely absolute rubbish) to "prove" your point. It's entirely fallacious and smacks of passive aggression.

And you deserve to be mocked for it.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[leckysupport]

Perhaps I'm misreading what you're saying, but it doesn't sound like boosting of ones faults, it looks like an attempt to connect with others who may relate to her (perceived) faults. This is very typical behavior of Fi's.
Fi's like to speak about personal sentiments as it bridges gaps in understanding and connects people, creating bonds.

She also could be expecting a sympathetic response from the forum and sympathy is attention. Although I'm not entirely sure about her intentions, as a general rule I expect them to be bad.

Are you really serious about that?

Yes.

As for my response to her "confessions", half of them contradict themselves, essentially meaning she admits to nothing in particular. For example:

- I admit I can come across as condescending on the internet while at the same time being very annoyed by condescending people. I am not condescending in real life
I'm condescending, but I'm not condescending
- I can be judgmental when it comes to people who are arrogant, hurtful, and/or inconsiderate
I'm judgemental with nasty people, but (implies) I'm nice to nice people
- I secretly dislike a number of people who will never know that I dislike them. But my dislikes can easily change into likes because I am willing to reconsider my initial judgment (and I forgive easily)
I like some people sometimes and I hate some people other times
- I like to either be the center of attention or blend in in the background (depends on my mood) and I want either on my terms only
I'm narcissistic sometimes and sometimes I'm not

The only two confessions that mean anything are:

- I manipulate people
- I often think I know better than other people and don't like criticism. However, I will apologize when I made a mistake and I am consciously working on being better at taking criticism. I will not, however, cease to think that I know better than most of you

Although you can always say everyone manipulates other people and that manipulation is a massive part of social interaction.

Basically it says very little about her, even less about IEEs and if it is a form of retribution it fails massively since she barely admits to anything.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Wrong Way Ticket]

Why would I do such things, you idiot? Don't accuse me for nothing!

The passive-aggressive here is you, you have a problem with me while I never talked to you as far as I remember, how could I as long as you even didn't talk about the subject, but only about my persona: that I'm this and that. Wtf is your problem with me? If I have reasons to think people are other types than they pretend, should I ask you for permission first to declare it, or what? Being (or claiming to be) a Delta doesn't make the Delta subforum your property, afaik.

I did not derailed the topic, it simply happened that it was a subject I am interested in, and you can verify this. The discussion is at least partially on topic because it is wrongly assumed that Marie84 is Delta and used for exemplification in this thread about Deltas.

On the other hand, you and Ryu were obviously completely off-topic here.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you about her type. She's the authority on what she's like, not you. I am merely attacking your need to question her self-typing, attacking your methods of producing evidence (forum posts). And If I had more interest in the matter, I would also attack your over-simplification of "type trends."

But when it comes down to it, here's what happened.

Kim posts "Confessions of an IEE." Hilarity ensues.
Cyclops takes umbrage at Kim's supposed attitude.
Kim gets upset by Cyclops supposed attitude.
thePirate takes this opportunity to call people words with "dick" and "cock" in them. Hilarity ensues.
Marie comes in and explains that she saw what Kim saw ie. Cyclops supposed attitude.
Cyclops foams at the mouth, deduces that Marie is not an EII, no way man!
Marie disagrees.
You see your chance to spout your opinions about Marie and enter the thread to stomp that misinformed opinion and fallacious arguments all over Marie with awesome nicknames like Yogi The Intellectual Bear [or Whatever.] and with far more stilted sentences than Cyclops could ever achieve.
After being dutifully mocked as an unrelenting stereotype of this forum's members, you then claim that you are intellectually breaking down Marie's type. Because there's no way it's what she claims, and we just can't have that now, can we.
Because you know best.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Marie84]

She also could be expecting a sympathetic response from the forum and sympathy is attention. Although I'm not entirely sure about her intentions, as a general rule I expect them to be bad.

Why would you say that, if I may ask?
Like I posted earlier, I don't know if there's some unknown (to me) reputation of Kim, so I can only ask about this particular topic, which from my point of view looked to be an unwarranted attack of someone who made a thread about admitting their own [perceived] faults.
Perhaps she has done things in the past that have been viewed as bothersome to some people (?) but that's neither here nor there with what she's posted here, which doesn't at all look worthy of mocking.

And to Cyclops,
I do agree that we have hit a brick wall in our interactions, and prior to really thinking about it, I was amazed that you thought I ever "attacked" you, but I can see now why you're perceiving my criticism of your behavior towards others as an attack, but it isn't because I'm the type you think I am, or the type you think you are
I won't go further into this since others have advised me not to due to your, supposed, conduct towards other posters in the past in regards to re-typing people.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

There was overwhelming evidence she's a Ti type long before Cyclop's post - the first discussions emerged on socionics.com, and Marie's denial is nothing new as well. Verifiable facts.

I was not following the forum, I was notified about this discussion by someone else. Verifiable fact if possible to check that my first page was in this thread after a long time of not visiting the website.

Letting aside the fact that you so easily ignore the enormous evidence, you prove that your version of the story is based on misinformation and pure speculation. Imo if you at least want to be on the subject, try to address Cyclop's post, I have nothing to add.

Way to prove my point.

I've already said I am not here to argue with anyone about Marie's type. That's Marie's business. I will however side with her against unreasonable jackasses painting their opinions about her as verifiable fact <- lol -- I once again stick to my opinion that she knows more about herself than you will ever know about her. No "analysis" or "verifiable facts" will ever change that.

I was not following the forum, I was notified about this discussion by someone else. Verifiable fact if possible to check that my first page was in this thread after a long time of not visiting the website.

So I should change this: "You see your chance to spout your opinions about Marie and enter the thread to stomp that misinformed opinion and fallacious arguments all over Marie"

To this: You are informed that you have a chance to spout your opinions about Marie and enter the forum to stomp that misinformed opinion and fallacious arguments all over Marie.

Way to go; you are a jackass.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I won't go further into this since others have advised me not to due to your, supposed, conduct towards other posters in the past in regards to re-typing people.

Simply, wow. I've only ever created one thread on this forum to question someone else's type, archon, and even during the thread I was apologetic towards him because he seemed to be somewhat concerned/upset about being questioned about being a possible INXp.

I'm not suprised you're not discussing it, even although you asked me in the past to discuss your type, as I said earlier, I suspected you wouldn't take anything I said with an open mind, and you conveniently use "other people" as a means to get out of it, very clever Se tactic!

Interestingly, you yourself made a post to begin with on this thread to me about how I interacted with Kim in an un-Si fashion, so you too have raised an issue for discussion in regards to type, and it made sense for me to move on to the conversation of your type, especially as I had the time this morning to write the post rather than being logged on here doing different things, and also, I hoped for some other input on it as this forum is busier than socionics.com.

EVEN MORE interesting, you've consistently in the past on socionics.com insisted that i'm ENTp, even using ad hominems like asking me for advice on how to speak to a Ti type. You may be able to fool some people, but it's clear what you're intentions are, you're playing a very clever TiSe game of tactics and manouvering, you'll fit in well here.

What you say confirms something else which is un-delta. Delta is a quadra of individuals, it's only natural that you'll take advice from some unknown crowd and use that as justification for your action, and however advised you of it - these "others", if they really exist, I highly doubt are Delta's as well, the pack mentality isn't something that Delta's gravitate to, it takes a long time for them to become organised as a collective group, if at all, following a crowd is something you show as coming naturally to you here.

@wrong way ticket You are so wrong about this, see the above post. I don't agree with ad hominem re-typings, and I don't do them. I don't know why you post here when you can't contribute anything of value but to insult people by artibuting incorrect reasons, and also more blatantly insults to others, and that's all you have to contribute here, I don't think i've ever seen you say something related to socionics, yet you seem to accuse me and others of this insulting thing while that's all you do, a beautiful projection.

And you deserve to be mocked for it.

I don't have the capacity to comment on stuff like that, what exactly are you doing here? Mocking someone because you don't agree with them?

You're one of the posters here who are much more spiteful, I could easily insult someone by putting it in flowery language and pretending it to be civilised, your veil is there, and it's quite the opaque one.

------------

Even if my post about marie84's type was some ad-hominem way to attack, it still wouldn't matter, even although it's not, because the reasons in the post that I produce are strikingly accurate, and that person would have to be typed as an ISTj, with an outside ISFj, by them, not only that but it shows some good socionic insight into how an ISTj operates, and I have to thank pinnochio as the only person here who said anything to appreciate that, I just hope that post doesn't get lost and maybe it gets some people to think.

-----------------------------

Anyway, as the last few posts haven't been about anything socionically, just an excuse for hypocrites to do the exact same thing they are criticising others for, it really seems the right thing for any sane person to do is to depart.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Kim]

Basically it says very little about her, even less about IEEs and if it is a form of retribution it fails massively since she barely admits to anything.

Retribution for what?

[leckysupport]

Retribution for what?

Moral retribution for your 'bad' behaviour.

[Marie84]

I won't address the rest of your post, but I just want to clear-up two things

EVEN MORE interesting, you've consistently in the past on socionics.com insisted that i'm ENTp, even using ad hominems like asking me for advice on how to speak to a Ti type. You may be able to fool some people, but it's clear what you're intentions are, you're playing a very clever TiSe game of tactics and manouvering, you'll fit in well here.

I don't know what your type is Cyclops and I likely will never *know*, I do presume that you could be an ILE but I have never insisted you are.

My initial post to you, in this thread, was asking you to explain why you were being (what I viewed as) hostile to Kim for making an Fi-ish thread, but instead you decided to divert the question to my type, which seemed irrelevant, though I was stupid enough to play along, so it's my fault too

What you say confirms something else which is un-delta. Delta is a quadra of individuals,

Every quadra believes in individualism and freethinking. Attempting to use Socionics to make yourself seem like a more enlightened "type" is intellectual snobbery.
I actually like Wrong Way Ticket's definition better, ""intellectual upstream trout swim"

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Another thing I recall from our discussions, marie84, was when we spoke about (I raised the discussion I think) about learning from other types to develop our weak points (in essense, our weak functions).

I made a point (among other things), for instance, that I have at times observed how ESFj's interact and behave to give me pointers to help develop my weak Fe.

Anyway, the idea of personal growth, developing oneself (and socionics can just be a medium for that) was alien to you. You were completely against the idea of developing oneself into a more complete person, being a better more complete person for instance. Your idea was along the lines of, "Why would I or anyone want to develop weaker points in ourselves, why would I want to improve on my weak points". You also were against the idea that we can learn something from all the types, like my example in the second paragraph.

I've never heard of an INFj, a humanist, being against the idea of personal growth, of the potential of people and the ability to become a better person. The idea was foreign to you and you offered no insight or ideas on how one becomes a better person (even without using socionics as a medium), it simply seemed you couldn't understand the idea, and you didn't see value in it.

I've never heard of, or met an INFj who isn't interested in the prospect of people developing themselves, who doesn't have at least something constructive and positive to say about the idea of personal growth, the potential of man (or woman of course), if you will.

It's just another indication that if you are an INFj, you don't fit the descriptions or the valued functions.

You didn't even provide any Fi with Ne within that discussion. An ISTp looking for seeking functions of an INFj, they provide their ego functions as natural.

With all the evidence, it's pretty clear I think to most people with knowledge of the INFj (and delta NF, although ENFp's are certainly interested in personal growth, INFj very much are too), that you just aren't an INFj.

If you provide answers to my points i've raised here about your type and the other posts in this thread about it, and some other things of your own to support the INFj prognosis, then that would be fine, but it isn't shown.

There's nothing wrong with being another type, surely.

Edit: I suppose all I can really ask is that you think about it, ... if you are or aren't an INFj (the latter option seems more likely), it's not going to be the end of the world :-)

[Sirena]

Cyclops, what I don't understand is why you go around questioning people's types when you've been so opposed to others questioning yours. I believe you were pretty adamant about this, unless something's changed. Just saying.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Cyclops, what I don't understand is why you go around questioning people's types when you've been so opposed to others questioning yours. I believe you were pretty adamant about this, unless something's changed. Just saying.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion, however, i'll provide an answer. I'm OK with people questioning my type providing they provide me with GOOD REASONS. I've provided some good reasons on this thread, and I am questioning it because I do think she really probably isn't an INFj, but i'm willing to admit i'm wrong if I am.

I did consider some good arguments for my type, and for a period considered INTj and even ENTp, but overall the ISTp made and makes more sense.

There's has been discussion here on this forum and pm about it (my type), and two quite lengthy discussions about it on socionics.com fairly recently, you see, so i'm not opposed to good reasons, the proofs in the pudding, as the expression seems to go....

(On a side note, i've already said that she's asked me to discuss her type before, so now you could say i'm getting round to it, and i've elaborated on that a little more on the thread, i'm not sure if you've read it or not, but I hope this answer helps).

[anndelise]

Another thing I recall from our discussions, marie84, was when we spoke about (I raised the discussion I think) about learning from other types to develop our weak points (in essense, our weak functions).

I made a point (among other things), for instance, that I have at times observed how ESFj's interact and behave to give me pointers to help develop my weak Fe.

Anyway, the idea of personal growth, developing oneself (and socionics can just be a medium for that) was alien to you. You were completely against the idea of developing oneself into a more complete person, being a better more complete person for instance. Your idea was along the lines of, "Why would I or anyone want to develop weaker points in ourselves, why would I want to improve on my weak points". You also were against the idea that we can learn something from all the types, like my example in the second paragraph.

I've never heard of an INFj, a humanist, being against the idea of personal growth, of the potential of people and the ability to become a better person. The idea was foreign to you and you offered no insight or ideas on how one becomes a better person (even without using socionics as a medium), it simply seemed you couldn't understand the idea, and you didn't see value in it.

I've never heard of, or met an INFj who isn't interested in the prospect of people developing themselves, who doesn't have at least something constructive and positive to say about the idea of personal growth, the potential of man (or woman of course), if you will.

It's just another indication that if you are an INFj, you don't fit the descriptions or the valued functions.

You didn't even provide any Fi with Ne within that discussion. An ISTp looking for seeking functions of an INFj, they provide their ego functions as natural.

With all the evidence, it's pretty clear I think to most people with knowledge of the INFj (and delta NF, although ENFp's are certainly interested in personal growth, INFj very much are too), that you just aren't an INFj.

If you provide answers to my points i've raised here about your type and the other posts in this thread about it, and some other things of your own to support the INFj prognosis, then that would be fine, but it isn't shown.

There's nothing wrong with being another type, surely.

Edit: I suppose all I can really ask is that you think about it, ... if you are or aren't an INFj (the latter option seems more likely), it's not going to be the end of the world :-)

This argument doesn't work so well.
One of the major arguments that had been used against my being NeFi was that I put in effort to attempt to develop my weaknesses. It was claimed that no ego type would even consider developing their polr or role functions, nor even attempting to bypass those weaknesses through other means. The idea behind the claims were that no ego type would even be concerned that they were weak in an unvalued function, and would basically ignore that weakness. In fact, one of the most forum accepted NeFi's (slackermom) agreed with this way of thinking. In fact, her words were nearly exact to what you wrote above: "Why would I or anyone want to develop weaker points in ourselves, why would I want to improve on my weak points".

Basically, I wasn't NeFi BECAUSE I was interested in developing my own personal growth.

And here you are saying that maria can't be INFj because she's NOT concerned about personal growth.

IMO, being interested in personal growth is NOT type related, nor is it function related. Past experiences and education would have a lot more to do with interest in personal growth than function/type.


I really wish people would stop saying "such-and-such action belongs only to so-and-so type" or "so-and-so type must do such-and-such action". Instead, try asking, under what conditions would a type/function do such-and-such action(s). There'd be less arguing over typings and more understanding of people (and types).

[Marie84]

If I recall, the discussion was about being receptive to ones PoLR, not "personal growth".

You stated, something along the lines, of being thankful/appreciative when an ESE gave/gives you advice on Fe matters.
I replied by saying something about how people do not tend to be receptive to PoLR advice from someone who possesses it as a leading/valued function, as this is the exact reason why people are resistant to their supervisor, who has a naturally tendency to poke at weak spots while trying to provide assistance, causing the supervisse to become defensive.

I also stated something about how compatible types (particularly duals), strong in your weak functions, would be the best source for learning how to deal with weak functions.

[Marie84]

This argument doesn't work so well.
One of the major arguments that had been used against my being NeFi was that I put in effort to attempt to develop my weaknesses. It was claimed that no ego type would even consider developing their polr or role functions, nor even attempting to bypass those weaknesses through other means. The idea behind the claims were that no ego type would even be concerned that they were weak in an unvalued function, and would basically ignore that weakness. In fact, one of the most forum accepted NeFi's (slackermom) agreed with this way of thinking. In fact, her words were nearly exact to what you wrote above: "Why would I or anyone want to develop weaker points in ourselves, why would I want to improve on my weak points".
Basically, I wasn't NeFi BECAUSE I was interested in developing my own personal growth.

And here you are saying that maria can't be INFj because she's NOT concerned about personal growth.

IMO, being interested in personal growth is NOT type related, nor is it function related. Past experiences and education would have a lot more to do with interest in personal growth than function/type.


I really wish people would stop saying "such-and-such action belongs only to so-and-so type" or "so-and-so type must do such-and-such action". Instead, try asking, under what conditions would a type/function do such-and-such action(s). There'd be less arguing over typings and more understanding of people (and types).

This, thank you

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Azeroffs]

I think BlackCat retyped SEI.. lol
but I'll support your claim by saying we had many useful discussions.
I haven't talked to him since he retyped, but I don't think he's SEI.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Cyclops]

This argument doesn't work so well.
One of the major arguments that had been used against my being NeFi was that I put in effort to attempt to develop my weaknesses. It was claimed that no ego type would even consider developing their polr or role functions, nor even attempting to bypass those weaknesses through other means. The idea behind the claims were that no ego type would even be concerned that they were weak in an unvalued function, and would basically ignore that weakness. In fact, one of the most forum accepted NeFi's (slackermom) agreed with this way of thinking. In fact, her words were nearly exact to what you wrote above: "Why would I or anyone want to develop weaker points in ourselves, why would I want to improve on my weak points".

Basically, I wasn't NeFi BECAUSE I was interested in developing my own personal growth.

And here you are saying that maria can't be INFj because she's NOT concerned about personal growth.

IMO, being interested in personal growth is NOT type related, nor is it function related. Past experiences and education would have a lot more to do with interest in personal growth than function/type.


I really wish people would stop saying "such-and-such action belongs only to so-and-so type" or "so-and-so type must do such-and-such action". Instead, try asking, under what conditions would a type/function do such-and-such action(s). There'd be less arguing over typings and more understanding of people (and types).

I'm not sure what you're saying here, ... the arguments that people had to say you aren't NeFi were therefore incorrect (and you type as a Delta NF so that supports that they were flawed).

I don't doubt that any type could consider personal growth, some more than others, but it's an important thing for Delta NF, especially INFj, when you consider what Fi an Ne is, like I mention a little further down.

I'm good friends with an INFj, and he often gives advice on improving oneself. I've heard smilingeyes speak about receiving advice to become a better person, it's related to the same thing.

And part of being an N type would be to spot how it's related, like I said, socionics is just a vehicle, albeit one of many.

These are my thoughts on the matter, I hope that they make sense fwiw.

If I recall, the discussion was about being receptive to ones PoLR, not "personal growth".

You stated, something along the lines, of being thankful/appreciative when an ESE gave/gives you advice on Fe matters.
I replied by saying something about how people do not tend to be receptive to PoLR advice from someone who possesses it as a leading/valued function, as this is the exact reason why people are resistant to their supervisor, who has a naturally tendency to poke at weak spots while trying to provide assistance, causing the supervisse to become defensive.

I also stated something about how compatible types (particularly duals), strong in your weak functions, would be the best source for learning how to deal with weak functions.

That was one part of the discussion, we can resurrect it and see, but what i'm getting at (and pinnochio is correct in what he's saying imo), is that it's an opportunity to discuss the idea of personal growth.

The FiNe sees potential in people. I've had similar conversations with FiNe and they gravitate towards something they have an interest in. What's revealing is that you didn't gravitate towards that, not even moving towards a personal interest of how the FiNe ego manifests - that's compassion, understanding, relations with the potential of Ne, the Ne is chanelled into people and vica versa.

It is like a conversational brick wall in that regards, and even if i'm not an ISTp, that wouldn't stop the INFj from considering these things and mentioning them.

An ISTp would be more likely to not be able to agree with someone who didn't show compassion and potential such as this.

Maybe you could also address my earlier post, particularly the part were I highlighted an Ne PoLR, among the other things.

Edit: thank for making an effort to address my post, I wanted to add, OK, when it comes to it, I have reservations of you being INFj as you know, but if you want me to stop, I will, some people may at times think I can be direct and stubborn, but if so, i'm not stubborn in this regards to press something, I have a battle between my logic and my Si over Se I suppose in this regards, it could be said.

[Marie84]

I'm good friends with an INFj, and he often gives advice on improving oneself. I've heard smilingeyes speak about receiving advice to become a better person, it's related to the same thing.

If you're a follower of smilingeyes/Smilex Socionics I can totally understand why you're viewing me as some other type

The FiNe sees potential in people. I've had similar conversations with FiNe and they gravitate towards something they have an interest in. What's revealing is that you didn't gravitate towards that, not even moving towards a personal interest of how the FiNe ego manifests - that's compassion, understanding, relations with the potential of Ne, the Ne is chanelled into people and vica versa.

The discussion was not on growth or potential, but seeking PoLR advice from people who are dominant in ones PoLR

[Creepy-Cyclops]

If you're a follower of smilingeyes/Smilex Socionics I can totally understand why you're viewing me as some other type

Thank you for once again shutting down the avenues and narrowing everything down to a one track, Ni, decisive type of thinking, you show your ISTj AND you're non Ne valueing to the extreme! Ne PoLR, it's got to be by this.

Notice how I make one small reference from a person who types himself as ESTj and you therefore have to use that as an opportuinity to decide that I must "follow" smilex socionics? There's no give! Maybe I could think some of it is good and some of it's not? Or maybe something else? Is half measures an option? Nope!

I'm not as good at cataloguing reference material as you, but I think we all know that Ne quadras like to keep some options open and Ni quadras like to narrow them down, but here's one anyway for you, although i'm sure there's better:

Extroverted intuition is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.

Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out. They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to Ni types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option.

Even when you make your post here, you're having a dig at smilex too! You can't stop putting others down it seems, don't understand that from a Delta NF.

The discussion was not on growth or potential, but seeking PoLR advice from people who are dominant in ones PoLR

Again you shut down the door to the idea of potential. I'm not sure how an ISTp could communicate with a delta NF like that. The Delta NF's unlock the potential, it's in the manuals, but you keep focusing on the one thing, etc etc.

OK, consider for instance someone who has PoLR F, but has to interact in an environment at work were learning to have better social skills is a requirement and therefore, better "F" to help understand it all some more. Of course it's potential growth, heh.

I can't repeat myself for ever

Edit: thank for making an effort to address my post, I wanted to add, OK, when it comes to it, I have reservations of you being INFj as you know, but if you want me to stop, I will, some people may at times think I can be direct and stubborn, but if so, i'm not stubborn in this regards to press something, I have a battle between my logic and my Si over Se I suppose in this regards, it could be said.

I even try to show a step to some compassion and consideration for your feelings, caring about your well being, Si, yet as usual it's actually ignored by you. Maybe you mistake it as weakness?

I also provided you with this link, were Tatyana Prokofieva talks about the importance of developing oneself:

Scientific Research Socionics Institute. Personality development and socionic functions

She's interested in potential too it seems, I don't know her type but I suspect she's an Ne quadra.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Are you really serious about that?


Why? To be the better person, maybe. (Not that I think Kim isn't a good person. I'm speaking in terms of the principle.) To "give peace a chance" as they say. In my experience, often the best way to diffuse antagonistic situations is to reply with a gentle answer. Or at least one that isn't antagonizing.

I agree, it's something I work on. Usually I don't respond IRL, but i'm not perfect and i'm aware that my reaction can seem more than what it is at times.

Unfortunately, Cyclops, how you present your attempts at assistance quite often comes across as arrogant, condescending, and judgmental (kind of like most anyone's attempts at unsolicited advice, I guess). That may be why Kim didn't react the way you had hoped. Out of curiosity (and to test that idea) how many people on here have reacted positively to your attempts at helping them?

They might do, but like you say, anyone's attempts at unsolicited advice can do.

In this instance I wasn't aware it was unsolicited, but in regards to your last question, I try to be careful when offering help (for instance, I can offer help when it's not asked, sometimes it can be good and sometimes it can be bad, I suppose a for instance is when I interjected at a point in the past when certain peoples tried to rape a female, I knew all 4 loosely, I suppose the assistance wasn't asked, but it was appreciated). Although that's not quite what you mean I suppose, I generally try not to assist with things unless it's asked, but my assistance can often be quite well appreciated, maybe it depends on the people involved having respect for each other in the first place, idk.

Perhaps. But he acts like this with other people, too, every so often. It's not exactly new behavior, unfortunately.

Well, I said somethings in no uncertain terms, it's something I maybe should work on, and I do, because as I look at it i'm concerned with how I think about myself, but sometimes, at least IRL, people have appreciated that i've had the ability to say somethings which others maybe thought but were reticent of. I agree that sometimes I don't phrase it the best, but overall my social skills aren't too bad, but i'm not perfect.

It certainly doesn't help me with this artificial environment of the internet, sometimes I can become discordant to things on this site in general, so although it's perhaps not an excuse, it maybe doesn't help.

My solution? Spend more time with actual people I can physically see, only a handful of people on the internet I can sort of get to know.

But yes, you have a valid point.

BTW I never saw this post until now, hence the later reply.

[Marie84]

Thank you for once again shutting down the avenues and narrowing everything down to a one track, Ni, decisive type of thinking, you show your ISTj AND you're non Ne valueing to the extreme! Ne PoLR, it's got to be by this.

Notice how I make one small reference from a person who types himself as ESTj and you therefore have to use that as an opportuinity to decide that I must "follow" smilex socionics? There's no give! Maybe I could think some of it is good and some of it's not? Or maybe something else? Is half measures an option? Nope!

I'm not as good at cataloguing reference material as you, but I think we all know that Ne quadras like to keep some options open and Ni quadras like to narrow them down, but here's one anyway for you, although i'm sure there's better:

I think this goes back to what I posted earlier about the misunderstanding in our communication coming from having different perspectives on Socionics.
What you view as me rejecting Ne possibilities I view as not putting esteem in unreliable sources (Te>Ti)

Even when you make your post here, you're having a dig at smilex too! You can't stop putting others down it seems, don't understand that from a Delta NF.

Not a "dig", I just don't agree with his model, I find it too Ti based to follow as well, a lot of the Te-Fi's at the Socionics.ws boards feel the same way it seems

Again you shut down the door to the idea of potential. I'm not sure how an ISTp could communicate with a delta NF like that. The Delta NF's unlock the potential, it's in the manuals, but you keep focusing on the one thing, etc etc.

I don't think it's impossible, just unlikely. I'm sure most Delta NF's would agree that connecting Ne+Fi to blindly following information to be insulting

OK, consider for instance someone who has PoLR F, but has to interact in an environment at work were learning to have better social skills is a requirement and therefore, better "F" to help understand it all some more. Of course it's potential growth, heh.

It's not a matter of seeking help, but where the help is sought. That was/is my point. Attempting to strengthen or deal with ones PoLR by seeking the help of someone dominant in it will generally lead to an even greater feeling of inadequacy rather than confidence, as is one of the aspects of intertype relations.

I even try to show a step to some compassion and consideration for your feelings, caring about your well being, Si, yet as usual it's actually ignored by you. Maybe you mistake it as weakness?

To show consideration would be attempting to be receptive to Fi, such as stating why you posted what you posted to Kim rather than trying to defend having possibly hurt her feelings by criticizing her.
Usually when I tell a Te that they crossed ethical boundaries and possibly hurt someones feelings they tend to be apologetic and back off...

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I think this goes back to what I posted earlier about the misunderstanding in our communication coming from having different perspectives on Socionics.
What you view as me rejecting Ne possibilities I view as not putting esteem in unreliable sources (Te>Ti)

I'm saying I don't practice smilexian socionics, but I think some things smilingeyes says is very good. That seems to be the miscommunication in this part, or is it something else?.

I would be interested if you can explain how not displaying or considering [rejecting] possibilities has got to do with Te here. Judicious types take information from many sources, we seem to talk about different things.

Not a "dig", I just don't agree with his model, I find it too Ti based to follow as well, a lot of the Te-Fi's at the Socionics.ws boards feel the same way it seems

You brought it up for no reason it seems that I must somehow adhere to his model.

I'm not a fan of following any school of socionics, there's good and bad everywhere, what about you?

Personally I find socionics workshop to be very cliquey and from what i've read it's an excuse to say mean things about people but cover it up with flowerly language (which could be said to be dishonest).

An example is some of the stuff that niffweed said about Joy. Discojoe responded quite directly about this, and he got banned. I read Joy's commentry on the situation and as I recall, she said the same thing as what i'm saying here in regards to the "intellectual insults".

I don't think it's impossible, just unlikely. I'm sure most Delta NF's would agree that connecting Ne+Fi to blindly following information to be insulting

I don't know how you responded like this to what I said. I never said anything about blindly following information here. I really struggle to have a conversation with you, it seems we have different things in mind. Maybe it's the ISTp-ISTj relation where they can struggle to reformulate the others thoughts?

It's not a matter of seeking help, but where the help is sought. That was/is my point. Attempting to strengthen or deal with ones PoLR by seeking the help of someone dominant in it will generally lead to an even greater feeling of inadequacy rather than confidence, as is one of the aspects of intertype relations.

I agree this is the case, from dating an ESFj, but I don't see why we can't a)learn something from observing from a distance and b)why the two can't go hand in hand. Maybe you could explain?

To show consideration would be attempting to be receptive to Fi, such as stating why you posted what you posted to Kim rather than trying to defend having possibly hurt her feelings by criticizing her.

To be receptive to Fi, it has to be shown, so i'm again not sure what this has to do with what you quoted. I showed consideration to you, so why talk about Kim?

I've already attempted to speak to Kim on the thread, i'm aware how my reactions can seem at times as i've indicated in posts, I think I closed by saying that maybe we can be friends (maybe it's possible, but that's another discussion too distracting with it's many possible variables, to have with you just now). So i'm not sure what you're looking for or expecting.

Usually when I tell a Te that they crossed ethical boundaries and possibly hurt someones feelings they tend to be apologetic and back off...

It's one thing just to say someones crossed ethical boundaries, but another to explain why. You realise that for instance an Fe dominant could say the same thing, that my reaction wasn't warranted? Any type could, so this is a pretty weak argument for Fi imo, it's not purely about being judgemental.

Edit: As I recall, you seemed to indicate it was about "punishing" me for crossing what you see as an ethical boundary, or was it something else? Why is it an ethical boundary? Why should I change or improve on this do you think? And why just look to punish someone (if that's the case), didn't someone say the ISTj's are the moral enforcers? Maybe ISFj's are as well.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

God this is boring.

I think Marie is most likely sick of defending her self typing to you Cyclops. As you just pick on her defending it as proof it's wrong.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

God this is boring.

I'm curious, why do you feel the need to share that it's boring? What should we do to stop it being boring?

I think Marie is most likely sick of defending her self typing to you Cyclops. As you just pick on her defending it as proof it's wrong.

She doesn't have to defend her self typing as far as I know.

I'm not sure what you mean by picking on her defending it as proof it's wrong, if she or someone else says something that is in support of it i'll agree, but i'm not going to agree with something that doesn't make sense. Of course I could have said nothing to begin with, maybe that would have been a better idea, or some other one, who knows, maybe you?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[UDP]

Why do you bother with this monkey?

Have you ever considered that you may not be alpha?

[Wrong Way Ticket]

...he's is also a Gamma...

...but he is mistyped...

Ooh really? Do me do me! What's my type then? Throw some logic my way baby and doubt on my self typing! Let's move away from Marie and onto me.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[crazedrat]

Cyclops vs. Marie.. This is like watching two snails in a wrestling match.

[jewels]

why don't we go back to the original topic -- it was a good one. I'd like to hear more from Kim about this. Kim, would you say you've always had these traits, or did they develop over time? I would bet a lot of these would be situational right?

[Wrong Way Ticket]

Hmmm... I think you are LIE - I took SEE into consideration, but it seems more improbable than LIE. Please check the descriptions through this POV, your relationships with people, etc. As far as you know, your relationships with Deltas, as types in your quadra, don't actually make sense. Btw, I think that you most probably typed correctly the SLI people you talked about in the threads, your alleged Duals.

Te? Really? That's a strange conclusion Pinocchio. I was half expecting you to say SEE or EIE. But LIE? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion by my forum posts. Please elaborate.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[somavision]

Dumbasses. You are all typed incorrectly and you are all deluding yourselves.
None of you understand socionics and your false perception of yourselves is really upsetting the nice ordered reality in my head. You will fit in with my understanding of the world, you will.... and no I'm not fucking projecting.